Why I think Thorn should go (1 Viewer)

Otis · Feb 4, 2012

Don't think AT can be blamed particularly for today and now it isn't even about whether he is good or crap anymore. What it all boils down to now is the mentality within the club and that is clearly wrong and there is an air of defeatism.

It's got past the stage of pro Thorn / anti Thorn. This is about our future. This is about our survival. Relegation would be disastrous. Something has to change. Something has to change to give us any hope whatsoever, no matter how small that chance of survival may be.We can't change the playing staff and therefore the only thing we can change is the mentality.

We simply cannot keep on doing this. We need change. It may work, it may not work, but change is our only hope.

Maybe, just maybe a new bloke at the helm will bring a new belief and toughness to the team. We keep on losing and keep on losing at the death to killer blows that must be denting our morale with each and every blow.

Never advocated Thorn's sacking, but as I say we need to try anything and everything to try and survive. If we don't, then it's the slippery slope to obscurity. It is that serious.

New managers bring new ideas, new hope, new optimism, new outlooks. New tactics.

I think AT should resign. This is clearly not working. We can't change the players, we can't change the owners, the one thing we can change is the bloke at the helm.

Be sad to see him stand down in many ways as I like everyone else, would love him to succeed. But succeeding, he is not. Whether it's his fault or not, we need that change.

It's our only hope.

The CableGuy · Feb 4, 2012

What it all boils down to now is the mentality within the club and that is clearly wrong and there is an air of defeatism.

That's been the case for years now. There's a cancer deep within the club which successive managers, players, coaches and boards have been unable to cut out for almost 20 years now. Should AT go? Probably. Should a replacement now make any major difference? Not really.

This season is just the latest, continuing, painful chapter of CCFC: The Fall. People say it can't get worse, I'll remember that when were being whipped away at Yeovil next season.

Otis · Feb 4, 2012

Agree. The mentality has been wrong for some time.

This is our lowest ebb for an age though. Relegation would be a disaster. We have to try anything and everything to give us any chance.

Also agree, it can get worse. Much worse.

The CableGuy · Feb 4, 2012

Certainly the lowest ebb I can remember.

Losing at Sutton Utd & Northampton was painful. This season to date is just like prolonged torture and its not over yet.

Our problems are a lot deeper than changing the manager (which this club could teach a course in). There almost needs to be an independent enquiry into the whole set-up of the club, not just for this season but for several previous seasons.

I don't think as supporters, we're asking for a lot.....are we? Expectations (and us) have been battered down and down and down over the seasons. Just give me a club that will win a few games, with players who turn up for pre-season fit and who are willing to play for the shirt, and who stand a chance of being competitive in the league. I think that's the bare minimum any fan of any club would ask for - this season, we've barely had that.

And before anyone mentions all the defeats by a single goal: Bottom of the table, 7 points from safety, with Forest and Donny both having games in hand.

Otis · Feb 4, 2012

I think today was the final nail in the coffin .......

Unless we try something different.

Paxman II · Feb 4, 2012

On the face of it we really didn't deserve to lose that if we are all honest. It was a sucker punch.

However we lost the game in the first 20 minutes where we were terrible. Having to come from behind like we did.
That's where the manner of these defeats are down to two factors: The manager and the players. Both are at fault.

At this juncture there can be no doubt that these players even though they 'play for Thorn' would benefit from a change of manager. New belief and perhaps new ideas and tactical awareness would make all the difference to getting the best out of them.

Thorn has done his best. He has been hampered yes but even so, we have been in winning or at least points positions all season long.....never got thumped by anyone, yet frustratingly keep throwing that advantage away. That's the big question isn't it? Either Thorns naivety and tactical awareness has failed him or the players have simply not been good enough in certain positions. Like today we were winning 2-1 after coming from behind. Ipswich were 'allowed' to come roaring out the gate second half. That is where Thorn surely is lacking in getting the players to do their job more effectively? We should never had lost at home from 2-1 up at half time after kicking the opposition in the teeth coming back from one down and scoring right on half time? That should have been the stuffing knocked out of them and instead the start of the second half....well you get it.

A new guy whoever it is has a chance to throw the dice for nearly half a season and see if he can't get a run together. That can sometimes happen after a change. Not saying it will as it will depend on the guy we get in but at this stage we all must be aware that it will not improve any further under Thorn regardless. Reality id staring us in the face. I'm all for change and perhaps as importantly changing the coaching staff where I also have chimed on all season has been bad by my reconing and also hampered Thorn. Our players lack fitness in the final third of games - clearly seen. Harrison is a liability more so than Thorn.

So make a change and do it now. Even SISU can see the worth of keeping the supporters on board with at least acknowledgment and realisation that a new manager may, just may bring us some much needed new optimism. Nothing else will do it now.

I hope Andy Thorn is retained as Scout and in the coaching areas with the kids where i think he will be invaluable.

Names in the hat could be any one who is out of work. All have more experience than Thorn. That says a lot in itself. Grayson has done nothing wrong at Leeds and faced similar players sales and no incomings that Thorn has had? Then the list can be anyone you can think of who is available. From Warnock to Dowie any are worth a chance.

Otis · Feb 4, 2012

Yep. I would definitely keep Thorn as a scout.

As I say, it has now gone past the point of whether Thorn is crap or good.

Change has to happen.

It's either that or certain relegation. We are pretty much down already, but there is still a smal chance of survival. While there is still that small chance we
need to grasp it with both hands.

Osullivan18 · Feb 4, 2012

Yeah now it is a mentality problem, things could and should have been so different today, had we won both or even one of these last two games there is a positive feeling again. It's hard as Like most I knee we would be down there before we even kicked a ball. We lost too much quality, but it's better to change and give someone else a go now.
I do believe Thorn has a difficult job and would doubt many others could do better. But change needs to happen now.

PUSB

Otis · Feb 4, 2012

Yep.

And we were so close today. Had we won we would have been within 4 points of Millwall. It wouldn't have taken much for that result to have gone in our favour.

However, the mentality is wrong. No doubt about it I feel.

Lord_Nampil · Feb 4, 2012

That's what 4 points lost in the last min of 2 games this week??

The Imperative nature of staying in the league to me says his days are very much numbered as a manager!

If the word IMPERATIVE is the same it was 2 months ago (when Ken left and Tim came in) then we need to act now EVEN if its to see if a new man can change things! (in more likely hood he/they wont) but we can not go on not knowing if they cant!

I personally dont like the guy any way i also said last march he wasn't the man to take us forward its just a shame its took nearly a year for it to come to a head!

Brighton Sky Blue · Feb 4, 2012

Otis said:
Yep. I would definitely keep Thorn as a scout.

As I say, it has now gone past the point of whether Thorn is crap or good.

Change has to happen.

It's either that or certain relegation. We are pretty much down already, but there is still a smal chance of survival. While there is still that small chance we
need to grasp it with bothe hands.

It's been within our grasp to be 1 point shy of safety this week; defeats like the ones this week must have dented morale and belief in the camp to the point where players and backroom staff alike are left struggling to see light at the end of the tunnel. The problem, and the real sad thing is, is that I don't think change in mentality or coaching staff will make much of a difference-nobody can fault these guys for effort or commitment. The thing that it comes down to is money-pure and simple. Our playing budget is a complete pittance, even now, when compared with typical League One clubs, and even some of the clubs in League Two have it better.
SISU's plan is to essentially use the youth system as a conveyer belt to the first team, with sprinklings of token loan signings; whoever the manager is, he will have to jump through hoops to get any results with that. Completely agree with you on how severe things could get (argued that before myself), but this is a case of lunatics running the asylum, lions being led by donkeys, and whatever analogy you like to that effect-the club is rotten at the top, and just cannot compete, barely at a third tier level, in its current form. Money, and lots of it, is the only long term way out of this situation.

Otis · Feb 4, 2012

Well let's hope Hoffman's lot have got pot loads of it.

Otis · Feb 5, 2012

Been thinking about this all night and I truly think Thorn should stand down. It's either that or certain relegation.

We are mentaly fooked at the moment and you just know there are more last gasp defeats still to come. We need to change the mindset and that is not going to happen on Thorn's watch unfortunately.

You also have to ask yourself, why did Leeds sack Simon Grayson? Because he's crap, or because they felt they needed change and a fresh start?

Lord_Nampil · Feb 5, 2012

I mentioned the word imperative, tthe word Fisher used in his first interview and if it is imperative we stay up then a change needs to be made!

Otis · Feb 5, 2012

Always been against the constant changing of managers, but these are desperate times.

BrisbaneBronco · Feb 5, 2012

Thorns job is as safe as houses whilst SISU remain in charge. They do not give a flying fuck whether we stay up or get relegated and they certainly will not pay compo to another sacked manager. Neither will they pay any money to bring someone of Warnocks experience to the club. Also who in their right mind would want to manage CCFC with both hands tied behind their back. Thorn will be here until we are taken over, thats if we are taken over. If we stay up, he should be given the keys to the city

Otis · Feb 5, 2012

There will always be people out there who would take the job. No doubt about it.

Thorn could go back to being a scout. Just how much compo are we talking about here?

I'm not so convinced he will be here until any takeover and anyway, if I were him I'd resign and ask to go back to my old position.

ohitsaidwalker king power · Feb 5, 2012

I'm undecided re Andy...

Ipswich specific: Was it his fault, Wood gave them the ball for their first goal?, was it his fault that Keough upended their player(did he or was it over officious refereeing?), was it his fault that Deegan gave the ball away so cheaply, 20 secs later 2-3 game over?, was it his fault that the ref indicated 4 mins and played 5?
General: Is it his fault re our financial plight and lack of support from this group of "owners":slap:

Ipswich specific: It was his fault that Nimely so effective against 'Boro through the middle spent most of it on the flanks, it was his fault that Wood struggled and should have been substituted and the defence reshuffled?
General The constant use of the Midfield 'diamond' :facepalm: Acquiring 2 keepers when funds were so short:facepalm: Lack of squad fitness, both mental and physical:facepalm:

Otis · Feb 5, 2012

People are blaming Thorn for yesterday.

Didn't quite see that myself. Would like to know what they feel he did wrong exactly.

Regis87 · Feb 5, 2012

Spot on Brisbane

Lord_Nampil · Feb 5, 2012

Wasn't thorns fault for the 3 goals Ipswich scored yesterday! BUT what is his fault is his lack of ability to iron out these faults in training, seems we go blank after 93 mins!!!

Also do t say we've practice this in training and then say we haven't trained all week because of the pitch being frozen!!!

BrisbaneBronco · Feb 5, 2012

Otis said:
There will always be people out there who would take the job. No doubt about it.

Thorn could go back to being a scout. Just how much compo are we talking about here?

I'm not so convinced he will be here until any takeover and anyway, if I were him I'd resign and ask to go back to my old position.

I presume that Thorns salary would have increased when he became Scout and Manager. Therefore if he went back to being Scout his salary would reduce. It would not look good on his CV if he resigned or went back to his former position and why should he. It is SISU who are responsible for the mess we are in. If we had hung on to Westwood, King and Juke, not to mention Turner, we would not be in the position we are in and would not be talking about getting rid of Thorn.
Most of the football world know about the restraints which Thorn is having to work under and would support him.
The reason Thorn got the job in the first place was because he was the cheap option, do not get fooled by SISU saying he was the fans choice. When have season ever considered what the fans think?
So if I were Thorn I would carry on and do the best I can, he is in a no lose situation. If we get relegated, the football world will say he was on a hiding to nothing. If we stay up he will be classed as a miracle worker and his reputation will be considerably enhanced.

torchomatic · Feb 5, 2012

I don't want Thorn to go, not because he's a nice bloke, but because I've seen some of the best football in years under his management. Considering the squad and the lack of money he's had I think thats even more remarkable and he should be comended for trying to entertain. Something we've been moaning about for years

If we can get more loans - as promised - then I think he could get us out of it. However, I think the tide is turning against him with the fans althjoguh I still feel they are in a small minority. The vitriol on here last night is a good indication of what he will get after every defeat, regardless of whether he was at fault or not. Yesterday, I don't think he was. Every word, every phrase and every action is now being analysed and disected on CWR and on here.

Having slept on it an re-read some of the stuff on here then I think it would be best if he did step down. Its got to the point where whatever he does he is attacked and that's not going to help us in our current situation. We need fans to be united behind the team and we're not. Let them have their Carsley's and their Rioch's and lets see what happens. Maybe they are right.

Who knows. Who cares.

Otis · Feb 5, 2012

We care.

Think that's the whole point.

Nick · Feb 5, 2012

torchomatic said:
I don't want Thorn to go, not because he's a nice bloke, but because I've seen some of the best football in years under his management. Considering the squad and the lack of money he's had I think thats even more remarkable and he should be comended for trying to entertain. Something we've been moaning about for years

If we can get more loans - as promised - then I think he could get us out of it. However, I think the tide is turning against him with the fans althjoguh I still feel they are in a small minority. The vitriol on here last night is a good indication of what he will get after every defeat, regardless of whether he was at fault or not. Yesterday, I don't think he was. Every word, every phrase and every action is now being analysed and disected on CWR and on here.

Having slept on it an re-read some of the stuff on here then I think it would be best if he did step down. Its got to the point where whatever he does he is attacked and that's not going to help us in our current situation. We need fans to be united behind the team and we're not. Let them have their Carsley's and their Rioch's and lets see what happens. Maybe they are right.

Who knows. Who cares.

Is it really the best football in years? We are rock bottom tippy tappy might look nice but we were most effective yesterday abd against boro when we went direct,

EleanorRigby · Feb 5, 2012

Nick said:
Is it really the best football in years? We are rock bottom tippy tappy might look nice but we were most effective yesterday abd against boro when we went direct,

No it isn't and results prove it. Good teams will let you have the ball in safe places and take it off you when things get dangerous, me and you nic could look good sat on the centre line passing to each other sideways, backwards etc, etc. Initially the Thorne way was a breathe of fresh air from the Boothroyd style, but has it resulted in better results ?

Gaz · Feb 5, 2012

I agree entirely
I wish he had a half decent budget as I think he would do really well for us.

torchomatic said:
I don't want Thorn to go, not because he's a nice bloke, but because I've seen some of the best football in years under his management. Considering the squad and the lack of money he's had I think thats even more remarkable and he should be comended for trying to entertain. Something we've been moaning about for years

If we can get more loans - as promised - then I think he could get us out of it. However, I think the tide is turning against him with the fans althjoguh I still feel they are in a small minority. The vitriol on here last night is a good indication of what he will get after every defeat, regardless of whether he was at fault or not. Yesterday, I don't think he was. Every word, every phrase and every action is now being analysed and disected on CWR and on here.

Having slept on it an re-read some of the stuff on here then I think it would be best if he did step down. Its got to the point where whatever he does he is attacked and that's not going to help us in our current situation. We need fans to be united behind the team and we're not. Let them have their Carsley's and their Rioch's and lets see what happens. Maybe they are right.

Who knows. Who cares.

Grendel · Feb 5, 2012

gaz said:
I agree entirely
I wish he had a half decent budget as I think he would do really well for us.

Based on what?

Gaz · Feb 5, 2012

kduffy said:
Based on what?

My opinion, or am I not allowed that because it's different to yours ??

Grendel · Feb 5, 2012

EleanorRigby said:
No it isn't and results prove it. Good teams will let you have the ball in safe places and take it off you when things get dangerous, me and you nic could look good sat on the centre line passing to each other sideways, backwards etc, etc. Initially the Thorne way was a breathe of fresh air from the Boothroyd style, but has it resulted in better results ?

I agree with that. Football is predictable and that means easy to play against. We cause teams no problems with no sustained pressure and the midfield is not good enough to handle the formation. More significantly all season the full backs have been under constant pressure to get up the field to deliver crosses and get no support from the midfield when they are defending.
If other fans from rival clubs browse this forum they must thing it hilarious. We are bottom, average a goal a game, have the worst away record in the whole country and try and claim some bragging rights for being entertaining. The only people we entertain are the opposition fans who know its going to be 3 points.

ccfc1973 · Feb 5, 2012

Thorn must go

thorn is now officially the worst manager in our history! his win % is the worst in our history!

now i fully agree those w*nkers sisu have not given him any chance whatsoever and we will never know whether with a bit of money and king etc staying this season could have been very different.
but they arent going to let him bring in the quality we need so the only option is to get the absolute best out of what we have and he is clearly not doing this and i think at times thorn is tactically inept.

fitness is clearly an issue with the debacle with "fatties" eastwood and deegan earlier in the season and fitness or lack of it is clearly visible when u talk about our inability to see out 90 mins, as the body becomes tired so does the mind and thats when u loose concentration and concede late goals.

now i agree will be if we cant afford to bring in any quality players , then we cant afford a new manager and talk of getting managers like davies ,warnock or bruce is pie in the sky

but surely why not give carsley a chance with bobby gould as his number 2 at least you know the team would have a bit of bulldog spirit and maybe a bit more motivation , i mean listening to andy thorn after a game is enough to put anyone to sleep and the players have to listen to it all week

now i feel for andy i really do because things could have been so so different but there not and we are almost down and i feel this is our last roll of the dice

Grendel · Feb 5, 2012

gaz said:
My opinion, or am I not allowed that because it's different to yours ??

Actually I was generally interested why you believe if Thorn had a better budget he would make a successful manager. I don't because;

I think he is tactically unaware
He is not adaptable to changes in tactics by the opposition
He does not have the motivational skills to ever be a manager - players may like him but respect him - I don't think so
He is a very poor communicator
No evidence exists to say he would be successful in the transfer market
He has become a manager 10 years after retiring. This statistically is not good news and raises the obvious question why has he not done it before.

Otis · Feb 5, 2012

ccfc1973 said:
thorn is now officially the worst manager in our history! his win % is the worst in our history!

now i fully agree those w*nkers sisu have not given him any chance whatsoever and we will never know whether with a bit of money and king etc staying this season could have been very different.
but they arent going to let him bring in the quality we need so the only option is to get the absolute best out of what we have and he is clearly not doing this and i think at times thorn is tactically inept.

fitness is clearly an issue with the debacle with "fatties" eastwood and deegan earlier in the season and fitness or lack of it is clearly visible when u talk about our inability to see out 90 mins, as the body becomes tired so does the mind and thats when u loose concentration and concede late goals.

now i agree will be if we cant afford to bring in any quality players , then we cant afford a new manager and talk of getting managers like davies ,warnock or bruce is pie in the sky

but surely why not give carsley a chance with bobby gould as his number 2 at least you know the team would have a bit of bulldog spirit and maybe a bit more motivation , i mean listening to andy thorn after a game is enough to put anyone to sleep and the players have to listen to it all week

now i feel for andy i really do because things could have been so so different but there not and we are almost down and i feel this is our last roll of the dice

Well that's a good shout. Lee Carsley with the likes of Bobby Gould in there to help.

torchomatic · Feb 5, 2012

K, Some points, fair enough. Others? Well, you are just making stuff up to back your "sack him now" stance.

Poor communicator? And what statistics suggest that a manager who has become a manager after ten years won't succeed? Dalglish hasn't been a manager for a decade and he's doing alright. Why? Financial support.

Why has he never been a manager before? Because he's been a successful scout and was happy in that role until a desperate club asked him to step in with no financial backing. God help us!

Gaz · Feb 5, 2012

kduffy said:
No evidence exists to say he would be successful in the transfer market
.

Didn't he recommend players like Fox, Dann, Gunner, Westwood, I would say that's evidence to suggest that with a budget suitable for the championship rather than league 2 we would be ok and is reason enough for me to claim that with a half decent budget we would be alright.
more experienced managers with better squads and bigger budgets are down the bottom of the table with us.

With what Thorn has to work with he was allways going to struggle,

Why I think Thorn should go (1 Viewer)

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