Why would we be any different (1 Viewer)

vow · Apr 4, 2019

Skybluefaz said:
I'm not sure he does. I personally do not know what or how we would do financially were we the owner of the ricoh with access to all the revenues etc. I do know that it can't be worse than trying to operate with an arm tied behind our back as we do at the moment.

It was more a tongue-in-cheek dig at Nick m8, sorry for confusion :emoji_upside_down:

Johnnythespider · Apr 4, 2019

ccfckeano said:
One thing I can't seem to understand is the assumption that without Ccfc, wasps will struggle to hold onto the Ricoh, but Ccfc at the Ricoh without wasps will mean we can thrive with access to our own revenue etc.

Wasps have on average higher attendances (granted a lot of free tickets) but have access to 100% food and drink at their games. Even if we match attendances if we were to own the ground, we will only have the same access to food and drink revenue that wasps currently have.

In summary, why do wasps need Ccfc playing at the Ricoh, yet we seem to think that Ccfc in the ground alone would be fine?

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Hey, here's a thought, ccfc without wasps and with a 250 yr lease would be a more attractive proposition to potential new owners, the kind of owners who might want to see us in the top division rather than muddling along in the shadow of wasps. Out of the box thinking i know but if you were looking to buy a football club would you buy one in city's position or one in the circumstances I've explained ?

Skybluefaz · Apr 4, 2019

vow said:
It was more a tongue-in-cheek dig at Nick m8, sorry for confusion :emoji_upside_down:

thekidfromstrettoncamp · Apr 4, 2019

I notice so far on this thread the talk is of acl servicing the debt as though if we owned it we would have no debt. Sisu would not want any rent?The sale of beverages will bring in Thousands of pounds?The Stadium naming rights will bring in thouands?I would love someone like our financal guru O S B to come on and tell us where these deals would really leave us i dont think the owning of the stadium on our own all be it Sisu would benefit us as much as what people think it will.I do think like has been mentioned on here Sisu trying to buy into the Riicoh may not be popular with some on here but the thought of a groundshare anywhere else and the loses in revenue that will ensue over at least 2 possibly 3 years will be enormous.

SBAndy · Apr 4, 2019

thekidfromstrettoncamp said:
I notice so far on this thread the talk is of acl servicing the debt as though if we owned it we would have no debt. Sisu would not want any rent?The sale of beverages will bring in Thousands of pounds?The Stadium naming rights will bring in thouands?I would love someone like our financal guru O S B to come on and tell us where these deals would really leave us i dont think the owning of the stadium on our own all be it Sisu would benefit us as much as what people think it will.I do think like has been mentioned on here Sisu trying to buy into the Riicoh may not be popular with some on here but the thought of a groundshare anywhere else and the loses in revenue that will ensue over at least 2 possibly 3 years will be enormous.

Enormous based on current revenues, yes maybe. Enormous compared to the £17.5m liability that would come with 50% ownership of ACL? Absolutely not.

Harryshipman1998 · Apr 4, 2019

It's a decent question TBF, I have never considered it before. How will we do financially if SISU are the management company of the Ricoh?
Would it be rent free and all Ricoh related revenue goes to CCFC?

Grendel · Apr 4, 2019

Harryshipman1998 said:
It's a decent question TBF, I have never considered it before. How will we do financially if SISU are the management company of the Ricoh?
Would it be rent free and all Ricoh related revenue goes to CCFC?

Why don’t you piss off back up Duggins rectum along with the OP - assuming you are not the same person

Harryshipman1998 · Apr 5, 2019

Grendel said:
Why don’t you piss off back up Duggins rectum along with the OP - assuming you are not the same person

Nice

thekidfromstrettoncamp · Apr 5, 2019

SBAndy said:
Enormous based on current revenues, yes maybe. Enormous compared to the £17.5m liability that would come with 50% ownership of ACL? Absolutely not.

I was just thinking if the club were away from the City for 3 years planning officer thinks thats how long it would take.If we lost about 7000 gate wise over the 3 years at an average of £15 a supporter that would work out at nearly 8 million plus our share of F and B which lots on here think is large (i'm not so sure) get our share of the naming rights also.If we go like i have said before i don't think we will come back this time. Harryshipman 1998 Grendel is always like that when its past his bedtime come to think about it he is just always like that.By the way welcome to the madhouse.

chiefdave · Apr 5, 2019

thekidfromstrettoncamp said:
I was just thinking if the club were away from the City for 3 years planning officer thinks thats how long it would take.If we lost about 7000 gate wise over the 3 years at an average of £15 a supporter that would work out at nearly 8 million plus our share of F and B which lots on here think is large (i'm not so sure) get our share of the naming rights also.If we go like i have said before i don't think we will come back this time. Harryshipman 1998 Grendel is always like that when its past his bedtime come to think about it he is just always like that.By the way welcome to the madhouse.

Why would we stay out of the city if the imaginary stadium project was moving forward? That would mean SISUs conditions to drop the legal action had been met.

Are you suggesting that if the legal action was dropped Wasps still wouldn't offer us an acceptable deal?

thekidfromstrettoncamp · Apr 5, 2019

IF they were building a stadium why would that mean the conditions had been met.As i see it the legal action has got nothing to do with any build it is to do with aiding wasps to get the stadium under value in Sisu's view.As for your last piece if they dropped the legal action then or now are you saying they would not get an acceptable deal.So far i think every deal Wasps have given them by all accounts has been reasonable .By your "imaginary" you think the same as me after 3 years no stadium.

oldskyblue58 · Apr 5, 2019

I know the focus for how a new stadium benefits is on the additional turnover but a new stadium is only viable if it meets the additional expenditures. It also means additional money is only available from the new stadium for the playing squad once those expenses are covered, unless owners want to put in or players are sold.

I do not know how viable a new stadium is, it will first of all depend on the build cost and how it is financed.

So purely guesswork follows.

Say for example a stadium costs £25m (- the Rotherham one cost around £20m approx for 12021 seat stadium). CCFC have no money to contribute unless they sold Ryton or players but say there is nothing. Selling plots of a site for housing or retail could raise some finance but say its only 5m. That would leave £20m to finance by loans. If interest rate was 3% that would be annual interest charge of £600k (let alone any repayment of capital) So the Property company (and yes it makes sense to have two companies) needs to charge CCFC a rent to cover the interest £600k. That rent charge is important to the value of the Property Company/SISU irrespective of an interest charge or not because it adds value to the build costs - but only if it is seen to be actually paid. Not paid then it is just another owners loan that cant be paid or gift and adds little if you were looking to sell it on.

On top of that there is the 365 day costs of a stadium - insurance, rates, repairs, maintenance etc etc guess £3m inc rent (currently we contribute £100k rent and match day costs). There is also the 365 day cost of stadium Staff guess £1m

At least some of the additional income streams have direct costs attached to them eg F&B or hospitality. Say the margin 60% overall that margin has to cover the new expenses before it contributes to the team. So costs (£3m + £1m) £4m means additional sales/income excluding VAT at 6.7m just to cover those new stadium costs. Of course there are match income and central distributions etc which we currently get 100% of but those in reality would be applied the team surely?

Now i am not saying it cant make sense for CCFC but it makes sense most for whoever owns the stadium and wants to sell that on at a profit with a long term tenant. After that the owners wont care.

As to income streams here for example are Rotherhams at the New York Stadium (it is based in the centre of town)

We already have a number of those income categories. It is basically the commercial income growth that is being sought. In the 2018 accounts CCFC had £3.5m from commercial, merchandising, sponsorship, advertising etc so not bad in comparison. The central distributions are based on league position not stadium ownership

Rotherham made losses of £500k in 2018 and 1.2m in 2017

Also looks like Rotherham pay £1m pa for lease of a 12021 seater stadium

Not saying a stadium can not or shouldnt work ...... only that it is not as straight forward or clear cut as it is portrayed. This demand to assess our own incomes also demands at the same time access to all our own costs

win9nut · Apr 5, 2019

Harryshipman1998 said:
It's a decent question TBF, I have never considered it before. How will we do financially if SISU are the management company of the Ricoh?
Would it be rent free and all Ricoh related revenue goes to CCFC?

First thing they would do is probably put the ACL or the club in admin and buy the footballing assets back from the adminstrators for a few million, writing off the bond debt and incurring a 10-15 point penalty from the EFL...
Preferably, they could also offer to buy the bonds at a cut price rate, financing it elsewhere reducing the overall amount owed.
Incidentally Wasps Bond prices are only trading 5.75% down from the original issue price. Thought they'd be much lower than that given their financial performance so far...

fernandopartridge · Apr 5, 2019

SBAndy said:
Enormous based on current revenues, yes maybe. Enormous compared to the £17.5m liability that would come with 50% ownership of ACL? Absolutely not.

The liability is more than that isn't it? It's repayment of the interest and capital. The interest is what? £600k a year? Who knows what the interest will be if / when the bond is renewed.

Captain Dart · Apr 5, 2019

win9nut said:
First thing they would do is probably put the ACL or the club in admin and buy the footballing assets back from the adminstrators for a few million, writing off the bond debt and incurring a 10-15 point penalty from the EFL...
Preferably, they could also offer to buy the bonds at a cut price rate, financing it elsewhere reducing the overall amount owed.
Incidentally Wasps Bond prices are only trading 5.75% down from the original issue price. Thought they'd be much lower than that given their financial performance so far...

I'm waiting for it to turn out that SISU have bought a load of the bonds. :angelic:

Brighton Sky Blue · Apr 5, 2019

Captain Dart said:
I'm waiting for it to turn out that SISU have bought a load of the bonds. :angelic:

Hahaha their first genuine master stroke

Harryshipman1998 · Apr 5, 2019

It does make you wonder though how we would fair as everyone who touches it seems doomed

stupot07 · Apr 5, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
The liability is more than that isn't it? It's repayment of the interest and capital. The interest is what? £600k a year? Who knows what the interest will be if / when the bond is renewed.

Interest is about £2.3m pa I believe, so that would be £1.15m pa for 50%

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COVKIDSNEVERQUIT · Apr 5, 2019

bawtryneal said:
Lots of people prefer not to post than be ridiculed

COVKIDSNEVERQUIT · Apr 5, 2019

Grendel said:
Why don’t you piss off back up Duggins rectum along with the OP - assuming you are not the same person

SBAndy · Apr 5, 2019

fernandopartridge said:
The liability is more than that isn't it? It's repayment of the interest and capital. The interest is what? £600k a year? Who knows what the interest will be if / when the bond is renewed.

Ah, sorry I was thinking along the lines of the balance sheet liability. Yes the cash flow liability would cause further impact.

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