standupforcity
Well-Known Member
If you were that man with all that money, would what is beginning to happen at City encourage you to invest?
Will turn around bring investment? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter standupforcity
- Start date
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Not at the moment no.......... nothing has been achieved and things are still very finely balanced between success and failure.
reality is nothing much has changed ....... we still lose money, we are still near foot of table, we still dont own even part of the stadium, we still have massive debt (equity or not). Needs a sustained period of positivity to make it attractive and it still needs major financial restructuring (we are only part way through that ). As they say in the dragons den ...... right now " i am out"
reality is nothing much has changed ....... we still lose money, we are still near foot of table, we still dont own even part of the stadium, we still have massive debt (equity or not). Needs a sustained period of positivity to make it attractive and it still needs major financial restructuring (we are only part way through that ). As they say in the dragons den ...... right now " i am out"
Last edited:
skybluesteve76
New Member
We win a couple of games and suddenly we are an attractive package?
No I don't think so, too many false dawns for me.
I can see us losing on Saturday. We've got a long long way to go before we can safely say that we've turned the corner.
Promotion back to the champs or at playoffs minimum for me. Then we might get people interested in the summer.
No I don't think so, too many false dawns for me.
I can see us losing on Saturday. We've got a long long way to go before we can safely say that we've turned the corner.
Promotion back to the champs or at playoffs minimum for me. Then we might get people interested in the summer.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
If all goes to plan and the devil buys half the stadium......
As a prospective buyer you are looking at a club with previous top level pedigree.
You are looking at owning the rights to half a stadium which aside the routine football matches. You have international pop superstars.
You have other events such as Olympics Rugby finals etc.....
Conference facilities. A gym a casino a hotel. Also you have land for further development. You also have a railway station on route. You are in the centre of the UK. Beside the M6 and two airports one for passangers one for cargo.
You know the current owners have invested 43 million and are driven solely by money and have no affinity or passion for the club.
You have the enviable position of a massive catchment area of Warwickshire and 10 miles in the direction of brum before you get competition. All you need to do is galvanise those fans and tap into the pool.
Get something from the council that if xyz conditions are met that they will sell their share by a set date for the independently agreed market price at that time.
So once the devil has done its business someone will be in I think..... especially if we are still in this division
As a prospective buyer you are looking at a club with previous top level pedigree.
You are looking at owning the rights to half a stadium which aside the routine football matches. You have international pop superstars.
You have other events such as Olympics Rugby finals etc.....
Conference facilities. A gym a casino a hotel. Also you have land for further development. You also have a railway station on route. You are in the centre of the UK. Beside the M6 and two airports one for passangers one for cargo.
You know the current owners have invested 43 million and are driven solely by money and have no affinity or passion for the club.
You have the enviable position of a massive catchment area of Warwickshire and 10 miles in the direction of brum before you get competition. All you need to do is galvanise those fans and tap into the pool.
Get something from the council that if xyz conditions are met that they will sell their share by a set date for the independently agreed market price at that time.
So once the devil has done its business someone will be in I think..... especially if we are still in this division
Last edited:
ALTERNATIVELY.......
You are looking at buying half a stadium that has profit of around £1m profit. You will have to deal with the council on a daily basis - councillors who may well not have ANY financial experience, and may well be hostile to you! A totally alienated fanbase, a team that has been out of the top flight for over a decade, an event arena that can hold at most 3 outdoor non-sports events a year, a gum that has no swimming pool, a brownfield location, and a struggling casino. And you are next to a trainline with no station!
Only a hard-nosed Cov City fan would even consider the Ricoh as an investment right now!
At the moment the Ricoh is NOT a viablr commercial project, especially as the council are insisting on building a hotel - right next to a supermarket on an old gas works - hardly a plum sight for executive level hotel!
The only reason SISU want it, is as a financial sink hole. What is required is an owner with a long term plan. It is going to take a best part of a decade to turn the club around, yet SISU are trying to portray this as a 3 year project!
This is why the sale seems to have fallen through. SISU wanted to get the stadium for free, dump its toxic debt and run. Council refused, which is why it has all gone quiet.
Fisher tried to blackmail Council by saying it was a done deal at fans forum. Council wanted to see proof of funds. Sisu couldn't!
Hence no sale for Ricoh!
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
errr guys they are buying the shares in ACL not half the stadium.......... shares do not give you rights to automatic income distribution or half the profits, especially when the ACL policy is to retain profits to repay debt.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
So what do they achieve by buying the shares in ACL.
skyblueman
New Member
They will get the ACL shares at a big discount - it's a very good deal for them in the long run regardless of who owns the club
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
a foot in the door........ a say on the board......... influence over the stadium...... an asset on the balance sheet...... the potential to buy the other 50% .......... the potential to gain from future development of things like hotels etc
btw the building of hotels in the area are essential to the further development of the stadium...... if they are to keep putting on events and gaining others they need the rail link and places for significant numbers of people to stay. Clearly as they are making profits, repaying debt, gaining extra business, diversifying away from football it has to be difiicult to conclude it is unviable commercially. Clearly they have a plan to go forward and improve ........ seems the only thing that has held the Ricoh back so far is CCFC.
btw the building of hotels in the area are essential to the further development of the stadium...... if they are to keep putting on events and gaining others they need the rail link and places for significant numbers of people to stay. Clearly as they are making profits, repaying debt, gaining extra business, diversifying away from football it has to be difiicult to conclude it is unviable commercially. Clearly they have a plan to go forward and improve ........ seems the only thing that has held the Ricoh back so far is CCFC.
Black6Osprey
New Member
I wish someone would come forward and explain what we actually gain by taking the Higgs share in ACL.
If the council and Higgs both have half ownership and we get Higgs half then surely this gives us some input on how and what ACL do and where the income goes. At the very least it increases our income which in turn increases what we are allowed to spend inline with the fair play rules. I am assuming all this as I haven't a clue.
To answer whether we are more attractive now, I'm trying not to laugh as only Coventry fans can get so excited and ahead of ourselves because we've scraped a couple of league wins and beaten York.
If the council and Higgs both have half ownership and we get Higgs half then surely this gives us some input on how and what ACL do and where the income goes. At the very least it increases our income which in turn increases what we are allowed to spend inline with the fair play rules. I am assuming all this as I haven't a clue.
To answer whether we are more attractive now, I'm trying not to laugh as only Coventry fans can get so excited and ahead of ourselves because we've scraped a couple of league wins and beaten York.
OSB58 Once again tries to make out he is the voice of reason, but once again embarassing himself.
1) ACL Owns 100% the Arena
2) ACL is currently owned by Alan Higgs & Cov Council
3) SISU are trying to buy Higg's share
4) Council Have Veto over any deal.
5) Whoever owns shares - owns stadium!
e.g if you have 10% of alan higgs ACL shares, you own 10% of whatever those shares represent. Thus 10% shares give 5% (50/10) ownership of Ricoh! PLUS 10% of anything else those shares cover.
Thus to own 50% of arena, you need to purchase 100% of Higgs ACL shares.
Arena profits are split shared between all shareholders (hence the name shares!)
So if Ricoh earns £1million, Higgs gets £500k, Council £500k).
OSB CLEARLY DOESN'T COMPREHEND THIS FUNDAMENTALLY SIMPLE PREMISE.
If you own a share of a company, you get a share of the profits!
Just because currently ACL's policy might be to pay off debts, that doe not mean that new owners have the same policy!
AGAIN - How hard a concept is this to grasp?
How is this difficulty to understand?
SISU for example might want to pay off the debt (unlikely) so put more into the debt payments. SISU MIGHT want to use their share as collateral (which they would have every right to if they owned shares)
OSB seems to live in a fantasy world, were nasty money men would never be allowed to destroy the club by putting debt into it. His reasoning is because he supports the club!
Real world = business men will ALWAYS try and make profits, and if they can get a property cheap and get rid of debts - they will!
Look at ManU, Liverpool etc. Bought by people with no interest in football. Look at ManU's debts - all from Glazer's failing projects.
Why couldn't SISU do the same to Cov?
WHAT A MORON YOU ARE OSB
1) ACL Owns 100% the Arena
2) ACL is currently owned by Alan Higgs & Cov Council
3) SISU are trying to buy Higg's share
4) Council Have Veto over any deal.
5) Whoever owns shares - owns stadium!
e.g if you have 10% of alan higgs ACL shares, you own 10% of whatever those shares represent. Thus 10% shares give 5% (50/10) ownership of Ricoh! PLUS 10% of anything else those shares cover.
Thus to own 50% of arena, you need to purchase 100% of Higgs ACL shares.
Arena profits are split shared between all shareholders (hence the name shares!)
So if Ricoh earns £1million, Higgs gets £500k, Council £500k).
OSB CLEARLY DOESN'T COMPREHEND THIS FUNDAMENTALLY SIMPLE PREMISE.
If you own a share of a company, you get a share of the profits!
Just because currently ACL's policy might be to pay off debts, that doe not mean that new owners have the same policy!
AGAIN - How hard a concept is this to grasp?
How is this difficulty to understand?
SISU for example might want to pay off the debt (unlikely) so put more into the debt payments. SISU MIGHT want to use their share as collateral (which they would have every right to if they owned shares)
OSB seems to live in a fantasy world, were nasty money men would never be allowed to destroy the club by putting debt into it. His reasoning is because he supports the club!
Real world = business men will ALWAYS try and make profits, and if they can get a property cheap and get rid of debts - they will!
Look at ManU, Liverpool etc. Bought by people with no interest in football. Look at ManU's debts - all from Glazer's failing projects.
Why couldn't SISU do the same to Cov?
WHAT A MORON YOU ARE OSB
skyblueman
New Member
Errrr... ACL own a LEASE on the stadium not the stadium itself
Also just because you own shares in a company it does not give you an automatic share of the profits - the board will decide if a dividend is to be paid to the shareholders and if so at what level - it makes sense for ACL to use cash profits to pay down their debt - SISU would not be able to force their own agenda here
and finally psgm1 there's absolutely no need to get so personal - OSB's got a right to his opinion as have you and everyone else on here - by all means state your point and back it up with sound reasoning - hurling abuse at another poster is infantile and frankly embarassing
Last edited:
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Intetesting I wonder how much it costs to buy a say.
I think what happens off the field will be bigger factor to potential buyers than what happens on it. When it comes to attracting buyers.
OSB you have slightly put me in more sombre mood.
I had just about accepted that we have to allow he evil one half the stadium, in order to get rid of them. With the safety net of the council to make them behave.
Once I accepted this I realised the quicker the better in ordr to get rid.
Councillor Tory gimp got my hopes up on Sept 21st.
Now you tell me what I am getting my hopes about is really just the evil one forming as a turtle head.
Not like I thought in the pan waiting to be flushed.
I think what happens off the field will be bigger factor to potential buyers than what happens on it. When it comes to attracting buyers.
OSB you have slightly put me in more sombre mood.
I had just about accepted that we have to allow he evil one half the stadium, in order to get rid of them. With the safety net of the council to make them behave.
Once I accepted this I realised the quicker the better in ordr to get rid.
Councillor Tory gimp got my hopes up on Sept 21st.
Now you tell me what I am getting my hopes about is really just the evil one forming as a turtle head.
Not like I thought in the pan waiting to be flushed.
Jim
Well-Known Member
Sorry to burst your bubble but the only person who has embarrassed himself is you.
OSB clearly demonstrates an understanding of how business actually works and not how the lay public thinks it works.
And as an accountant myself I will happily back OSB on this....
I'm of the opinion that the Ricoh has far more potential than has been tapped into .The Jaguar hall being a prime example,other cities on our door step have several venues that put on indoor concerts 3-4 times a week,the Ricoh manages one per year,that is a FAIL.If SISU manage to get through the door with this they are going to have to bring something new to the party,ACL needs a mindshift in the way it approaches the running of the Arena as it seems to operate on the basis of a Council enitity ,Slowly Slowly ,Steady Steady ,Comfy Comfy.
THe Gallery staircase at a cost of £2.5M. was a wasteful needless piece of Bling and the 28 new bedrooms @ £50k. a piece seem expensive ,the operation up there would definately benefit from a more Private Enterprise approach .Are Sisu of the right mindset and will the new CEO selected by ACL bring these traits to the table?
THe Gallery staircase at a cost of £2.5M. was a wasteful needless piece of Bling and the 28 new bedrooms @ £50k. a piece seem expensive ,the operation up there would definately benefit from a more Private Enterprise approach .Are Sisu of the right mindset and will the new CEO selected by ACL bring these traits to the table?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
psgm1 the only person embarrassing himself here is you .......... feel free to carry on :facepalm:
skyblueinBaku
Well-Known Member
OSB, please keep on misleading us.
skyblue1523
New Member
the right investment and this would be a little goldmine with the land and the ricoh+ railway just wish i had a spare 100 million to do something about it
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
OSB58 Once again tries to make out he is the voice of reason, but once again embarassing himself. As i am feeling charitable to the less fortunate among us will answer a few things
1) ACL Owns 100% the Arena - no they own the long lease the council own the freehold
2) ACL is currently owned by Alan Higgs & Cov Council - correct or nearly correct .... the shares are owned by companies owned by the charity and the council
3) SISU are trying to buy Higg's share - incorrect CCFC are trying to buy the shares because the charity wont sell to SISU. SISU back and own CCFC. The option to buy is held by CCFC and can not be transferred
4) Council Have Veto over any deal. - its not a special power it applies in any private company
5) Whoever owns shares - owns stadium! - no they own ACL who own a long lease on the stadium which will run out in approx 43 years
e.g if you have 10% of alan higgs ACL shares, you own 10% of whatever those shares represent. Thus 10% shares give 5% (50/10) ownership of Ricoh! PLUS 10% of anything else those shares cover. -but the shares represent the long lease of the stadium not the stadium itself. Also gives shareholders a share of any debts too
Thus to own 50% of arena, you need to purchase 100% of Higgs ACL shares. - would be true if ACL owned the freehold which of course it does not.
Arena profits are split shared between all shareholders (hence the name shares!) - but they are not distributed to the shareholders because the only way you can do that is by dividend and ACL are not paying dividends. Owning 50% does not give you the power to change that policy 50.1% would but neither shareholder has that
So if Ricoh earns £1million, Higgs gets £500k, Council £500k). - not unless it is paid out as a dividend or the company is wound up. BUT it would be illegal to pay a dividend at present and for several more years to come because the company has net accumulated losses (£7m) since it was formed....... you cant pay out dividends from losses. But you would know that wouldnt you being an expert?
OSB CLEARLY DOESN'T COMPREHEND THIS FUNDAMENTALLY SIMPLE PREMISE. clearly i do because I know it has to comply with company and tax law. take a wild guess at my qualifications chap
If you own a share of a company, you get a share of the profits! only if there are accumulated profits to pay a dividend, cash to pay that dividend and a dividend is actually voted
Just because currently ACL's policy might be to pay off debts, that doe not mean that new owners have the same policy! but they wont own it will they. CCFC will have equal shares with the council so will be 50:50 and no power for one to vote a dividend without the other agreeing or to change established policies of debt repayment or reinvestment
AGAIN - How hard a concept is this to grasp? you tell me because you havent got it yet
How is this difficulty to understand? I understand......... question is do you ?
SISU for example might want to pay off the debt (unlikely) so put more into the debt payments. SISU MIGHT want to use their share as collateral (which they would have every right to if they owned shares). - the board of directors might agree to repay debt quicker yes but you need a majority of votes to do that, very unlikely either the council or charity would permit the shares to be charged as any form of collateral usually in articles that it isnt permitted
OSB seems to live in a fantasy world, were nasty money men would never be allowed to destroy the club by putting debt into it. His reasoning is because he supports the club! not sure it is me in a fantasy world, and my reasoning is based on my profession and the successful business i run. Just out of interest what do you call the money (£43m)already owed to SISU, the club owes it ....... SISU investors are due it....... that would be a debt then right ? how much debt do you want them to put in before the club is at risk ?
Real world = business men will ALWAYS try and make profits, and if they can get a property cheap and get rid of debts - they will! wouldnt disagree with that nor do i see it as fundamentally wrong
Look at ManU, Liverpool etc. Bought by people with no interest in football. Look at ManU's debts - all from Glazer's failing projects. so what ..... not interested in what happens elsewhere and that it has doesnt prove it will happen here
Why couldn't SISU do the same to Cov? that depends on the deal to be done by charity and council, there has been nothing to say they would jeopardise that and just because SISU or CCFC say something doesnt make it true or that it will happen the way they want it
WHAT A MORON YOU ARE OSB - clearly a self made hat for you to wear chap your snug fit is far to big for my head:facepalm:
lesson over go study
Last edited:
skyblueinBaku
Well-Known Member
Exactly which land has been earmarked for development?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I think at least part of it is the car park the otherside of A444 (car park C i think)
skyblueman
New Member
NO NO NO.... ACL is 50% owned by the council .... the charity owns the other 50%
lordsummerisle
Well-Known Member
Fucking hell.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
wrong charity 50% Council 50% .......... or is all this talk of the charity selling its shares in ACL make believe :facepalm:
Chinaman also has links with Chinese petrochemical industry perhaps he will put an oil well in too ?
skyblueman
New Member
Bet it didn't help with your love life though
Just kidding speedie don't take offence - but you got to admit there's some real dull ones out there - I'm sure you're not
Loughborough Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
psgm is clearly going for the most popular poster award by launching that attack on osb. because everyone knows osb has never contributed anything worthwhile to this form, whereas psgm is always providing us with fantastic breakdowns of things us less fiscally minded folks find very useful!
in case anyone is not quite bright enough to get it (not mentioning any names here psgm. ), that post is full of sarcasm, and psgm is a numpty!
in case anyone is not quite bright enough to get it (not mentioning any names here psgm.
), that post is full of sarcasm, and psgm is a numpty!
Think that while the value in the lease diminishes ,While the Freehold increases Rich ,in the Council documents relating to the Stadium the Freehold value is very low while the long lease is in place.
Last edited:
blueflint
Well-Known Member
psgm what a plonker are you in business if so start to panic cant see it lasting long simple accounting laws come into effect ask osb he knows that
BurbageSkyBlues
New Member
Had no idea that there are so many accountants amongst us CCFC fans !
Begs the question - why is the club in such financial poo !!!???!!!
Begs the question - why is the club in such financial poo !!!???!!!