With admin happening and us losing 10 points (1 Viewer)

Otis · Mar 13, 2013

That is any play-off dream gone.

With that in mind that is surely going to hit attendances quite hard isn't it?

Will certainly put a lot off going up on say this Saturday or the Donny game with us now having nowt to play for.

Every season since God knows when we have had something to play for, albeit usually a relegation battle. 10 points off this season will leave us just rotting away in midtable. I can see that resulting in people not wanting to part with their hard earned money.

I will still go on Saturday of course, but it has left me rather unexcited at the prospect and I think with the players knowing there's nowt to play for the foot might come off the gas and we could go on a poor run of results.

This news has to have an effect on the players for sure.

Only plus I can see is that we could maybe blood a few youngsters such as Willis, Henderson and Wilson.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2013

The 10 points will be next season and could be 20 if we do not exit the CVA correctly.

ggrady · Mar 13, 2013

I have a season ticket but if the points are off this year I won't go I have better things to do than watch that

SkyblueBazza · Mar 13, 2013

Grendel said:
The 10 points will be next season and could be 20 if we do not exit the CVA correctly.

That surely hinges on whether the administration happens before or after 28th March from what I understand?

torchomatic · Mar 13, 2013

Which really wipes out any chance of promotion next season. Madness.

Grendel said:
The 10 points will be next season and could be 20 if we do not exit the CVA correctly.

Sba180 · Mar 13, 2013

ggrady said:
I have a season ticket but if the points are off this year I won't go I have better things to do than watch that

Great fan you are

Grendel · Mar 13, 2013

SkyblueBazza said:
That surely hinges on whether the administration happens before or after 28th March from what I understand?

They are proceeding with a court order. That is extremely unlikely to be heard until after the Easter holiday and even then could be appealed.

westterrace · Mar 13, 2013

Football League rules on insolvency are here http://www.football-league.co.uk/regulations/20120702/section-3-the-league_2293633_2125717

This explains why it was done today as it needs to be heard by the courts by the fourth Thursday in March for the points to be deducted in the current season.

12.3.1 If any Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, that Club shall be deducted 10 points.

12.3.2 If a Group Undertaking of a Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, then the Board shall have the power to impose upon the Club a deduction of 10 points scored or to be scored in the League Competition. In exercising this power the Board shall have regard to all the circumstances of the case and to:

(a) such of the provisions of the Insolvency Act, the Competition Act 1998 and the Enterprise Act 2002 as are relevant and then in force;

(b) the need to protect the integrity and continuity of the League Competition;

(c) the reputation of The League and the need to promote the game of association football generally; and

(d) the relationship between the Club and the Group Undertaking.

12.3.3 Subject to the provisions of Regulation 12.3.4 below, where the Club becomes subject to or suffers an Insolvency Event, or the Board impose a deduction in accordance with Regulation 12.3.2:

(a) during the Normal Playing Season but prior to 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March, the points deduction shall apply immediately;

(b) during the Normal Playing Season but after 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March, Regulation 12.3.4 shall apply; and

(c) outside the Normal Playing Season, the points deduction shall apply in respect of the following Season such that the Club starts that Season on minus 10 points (including in the Football Conference if appropriate).

12.3.4 Where the circumstances set out in Regulation 12.3.3(b) apply and at the end of that Season, having regard to the number of championship points awarded (ignoring any potential deduction):

(a) the Club would be relegated in accordance with Regulation 10.1.2(b) or 7.3, the points deduction will apply in the next following Season (including in the Football Conference if appropriate); or

(b) the Club would not be relegated as aforesaid, the points deduction will apply in that Season and Regulation 10.1.2(b) or 7.3 will then apply (if appropriate) following imposition of the points deduction.

12.3.5 For the avoidance of doubt, where a Club and/or Group Undertaking is subject to more than one of the procedures in Regulation 12.3.1 above during a process of compromising creditors (for example Administration followed by a Company Voluntary Arrangement), the Club shall only be deducted one set of 10 points, such deduction to apply with effect from the first Insolvency Event.

SkyblueBazza · Mar 13, 2013

Grendel said:
They are proceeding with a court order. That is extremely unlikely to be heard until after the Easter holiday and even then could be appealed.

But possible...they'll have been planning & constantly guessing the most favourable (to them) time to carry this out I would hope.

Otis · Mar 13, 2013

The bloke on Twitter who 'allegedly' knows something is saying points off this season isn't he?

SkyBlueSwiss · Mar 13, 2013

Grendel said:
The 10 points will be next season and could be 20 if we do not exit the CVA correctly.

Grenduffy
Why do you keep on doing this? You again make a sweeping statement as if it is fact when you must surely know that you have less knowledge than the lawyers that are involved in this action.
The ACL statement makes it quite clear that they have acted at this time for several reasons, one of which is the hope that the administration procedure can be entered into to try and ensure that any points deduction is made this season and not next season. There is of course no guarantee, but that is what they are attempting to do, so why do you then make a sweeping statement contradicting this as though you KNOW that the points will be deducted next season? That may well happen, but people in the know are trying to make sure that that does not happen.

Otis · Mar 13, 2013

Well yep. From what I have read, not saying it is true, but they are saying 10 points off this season.

If points are to come off then this season would be ideal, not that any deduction is a blessing of course. But if they are coming off anyway, this is the season it needs to be.

Gaz · Mar 13, 2013

To be fair we will be hard pushed to beat that deadline.

It will be depressing starting next season in league 1 on - 10 if thats the way it works out.

Otis · Mar 13, 2013

Maybe it will be the Championship on minus 10 pts!!

VegetableSamosa · Mar 13, 2013

Guys, the 10 point deduction isn't going to happen. They're taking CCFC HOLDINGS to court for Admin, not the actually club part of the business. It wont affect our season points wise.

Grendel · Mar 13, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Grenduffy
Why do you keep on doing this? You again make a sweeping statement as if it is fact when you must surely know that you have less knowledge than the lawyers that are involved in this action.
The ACL statement makes it quite clear that they have acted at this time for several reasons, one of which is the hope that the administration procedure can be entered into to try and ensure that any points deduction is made this season and not next season. There is of course no guarantee, but that is what they are attempting to do, so why do you then make a sweeping statement contradicting this as though you KNOW that the points will be deducted next season? That may well happen, but people in the know are trying to make sure that that does not happen.

It's a fact. I've read the statement

SkyBlueSwiss · Mar 13, 2013

Grendel said:
It's a fact. I've read the statement

Sorry Grendel, you've lost me there. The reply is a bit too cryptic and as I am an hour ahead of you I am getting quite tired (getting old sorry to say). Could I ask you to elucidate please?
Thanks

SkyBlueSwiss · Mar 13, 2013

VegetableSamosa said:
Guys, the 10 point deduction isn't going to happen. They're taking CCFC HOLDINGS to court for Admin, not the actually club part of the business. It wont affect our season points wise.

My understanding is that it is all in the same group of companies that ultimately hold the club, so no matter which group company it is, the club will be deducted 10 points.
Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

chiefdave · Mar 13, 2013

The point about the CVA could be a key one. If SISU are the major creditor could they not block acceptance of any proposed CVA?

Gaz · Mar 13, 2013

VegetableSamosa said:
Guys, the 10 point deduction isn't going to happen. They're taking CCFC HOLDINGS to court for Admin, not the actually club part of the business. It wont affect our season points wise.

Are you sure mate ?
That ACL statement suggests that we will.

''We are, of course, well aware that under the current Football League regulations, CCFC will face a points deduction and we will do everything we can to ensure that the case is heard by the High Court before the end of the current season. While this opens up the possibility of a ten point deduction this season, the Board believes this is better than leaving CCFC facing a much larger deduction at the start of next season."

dongonzalos · Mar 13, 2013

I think half of our remaining games will be played before this kicks in and SISU will stump up some cash the minimum to stop the This is taking ages!
high court putting us into admin. If they think the play offs are on.

theferret · Mar 13, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Sorry Grendel, you've lost me there. The reply is a bit too cryptic and as I am an hour ahead of you I am getting quite tired (getting old sorry to say). Could I ask you to elucidate please?
Thanks

You seem unaware that ultimately it is the Football League that decide when the points deduction will be levied. That will, almost certainly, be next season because any points deduction imposed before the end of this season will have little effect, we will simply go from upper mid-table to lower mid-table.

The only possible exception would be if we somehow forced our way into a play off position by the end of the season. Imagine that though, our first top 6 finish in 42 years only to be taken off us because of our local council. The fall out from that would be fun.

VegetableSamosa · Mar 13, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
My understanding is that it is all in the same group of companies that ultimately hold the club, so no matter which group company it is, the club will be deducted 10 points.
Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

gaz said:
Are you sure mate ?
That ACL statement suggests that we will.

''We are, of course, well aware that under the current Football League regulations, CCFC will face a points deduction and we will do everything we can to ensure that the case is heard by the High Court before the end of the current season. While this opens up the possibility of a ten point deduction this season, the Board believes this is better than leaving CCFC facing a much larger deduction at the start of next season."

You're going to hate me for this, but my Dad is an accountant within the council and has worked on the ACL payments and such. And I appreciate that second hard sources, like "I know a guy who knows a guy" or whatever isn't perhaps the most trustworthy of sources.

He said his understanding was that it was only the CCFC Holding that was subject to the administration and that they are not going after the football arm of the business. SISU are quite adept at separating parts of their business and moving funds and debts around as needed. Then again, he might be wrong in his understanding as the announcement came after the close of play work wise, but he has had to have an eye on these shenanigans for a while. Also, gotta reiterate, he's sky blue through and through.

Gaz · Mar 14, 2013

VegetableSamosa said:
You're going to hate me for this, but my Dad is an accountant within the council and has worked on the ACL payments and such. And I appreciate that second hard sources, like "I know a guy who knows a guy" or whatever isn't perhaps the most trustworthy of sources.

He said his understanding was that it was only the CCFC Holding that was subject to the administration and that they are not going after the football arm of the business. Then again, he might be wrong in his understanding as the announcement came after the close of play work wise, but he has had to have an eye on these shenanigans for a while. Also, gotta reiterate, he's sky blue through and through.

Sadly with that statement saying they are well aware there action will lead to a points deduction, we can take it that we will be facing a 10 point hit.

VegetableSamosa · Mar 14, 2013

gaz said:
Sadly with that statement saying they are well aware there action will lead to a points deduction, we can take it that we will be facing a 10 point hit.

I think it depends on whether one part of SISU's CCFC falling into administration will count against the company as a whole or not. It seems that CCFC Holdings is a seperate entity to CCFC. I know when they took over the club, they created another company which bought all our debts, it might be that company which is having the administration proceedings run against them.

Bluegloucester · Mar 14, 2013

They created SBS&L held ccfc, ccfch and prozone

SkyBlueSwiss · Mar 14, 2013

theferret said:
You seem unaware that ultimately it is the Football League that decide when the points deduction will be levied. That will, almost certainly, be next season because any points deduction imposed before the end of this season will have little effect, we will simply go from upper mid-table to lower mid-table.

The only possible exception would be if we somehow forced our way into a play off position by the end of the season. Imagine that though, our first top 6 finish in 42 years only to be taken off us because of our local council. The fall out from that would be fun.

Yes, I am indeed unaware of that!
Reading the rules concerning points deduction that someone kindly posted on another thread, it seemed to state that if administration was entered into before the third (or fourth) Thursday in March, then the points would be deducted in the current season. Nowhere did it state that the Football League had the power to arbitrarily decide in which season the points would be deducted.
However, if you or Grendel have knowledge in addition to the written rules, and have knowledge that the Football League will definately decide to arbitrarily make the deduction apply to next season, then I bow to your superior knowledge.
But before I make said bow, would you mind pointing me to the specific league rule stating that the published rules may be overruled arbitrarily by the Football League?
Sorry if I sound a little disbelieving, but I read the rules posted and I cannot find this rule that overules their own rules. I am not saying you and Grendel are not correct, I just cannot find supporting evidence for it. On the other hand, the ACL lawyers seem convinced that if the court appoints an administrator by the 28th March, then they believe that the points will definately be deducted this season, not next sseason.
Do you see my confusion here?

dongonzalos · Mar 14, 2013

Originally Posted by SkyBlueSwiss:
Sorry Grendel, you've lost me there. The reply is a bit too cryptic and as I am an hour ahead of you I am getting quite tired (getting old sorry to say). Could I ask you to elucidate please?

theferret 11:55 PM 45 Minutes Ago
You seem unaware that ultimately it is the Football League that decide when the points deduction will be levied. That will, almost certainly, be next season because any points deduction imposed before the end of this season will have little effect, we will simply go from upper mid-table to lower mid-table.

The only possible exception would be if we somehow forced our way into a play off position by the end of the season. Imagine that though, our first top 6 finish in 42 years only to be taken off us because of our local council. The fall out from that would be fun.

dongonzalos · Mar 14, 2013

dongonzalos said:
Originally Posted by SkyBlueSwiss:
Sorry Grendel, you've lost me there. The reply is a bit too cryptic and as I am an hour ahead of you I am getting quite tired (getting old sorry to say). Could I ask you to elucidate please?

theferret 11:55 PM 45 Minutes Ago
You seem unaware that ultimately it is the Football League that decide when the points deduction will be levied. That will, almost certainly, be next season because any points deduction imposed before the end of this season will have little effect, we will simply go from upper mid-table to lower mid-table.

The only possible exception would be if we somehow forced our way into a play off position by the end of the season. Imagine that though, our first top 6 finish in 42 years only to be taken off us because of our local council. The fall out from that would be fun.

You two definitely are different people aren't you?

theferret · Mar 14, 2013

SkyBlueSwiss said:
Yes, I am indeed unaware of that!
Reading the rules concerning points deduction that someone kindly posted on another thread, it seemed to state that if administration was entered into before the third (or fourth) Thursday in March, then the points would be deducted in the current season. Nowhere did it state that the Football League had the power to arbitrarily decide in which season the points would be deducted.
However, if you or Grendel have knowledge in addition to the written rules, and have knowledge that the Football League will definately decide to arbitrarily make the deduction apply to next season, then I bow to your superior knowledge.
But before I make said bow, would you mind pointing me to the specific league rule stating that the published rules may be overruled arbitrarily by the Football League?
Sorry if I sound a little disbelieving, but I read the rules posted and I cannot find this rule that overules their own rules. I am not saying you and Grendel are not correct, I just cannot find supporting evidence for it. On the other hand, the ACL lawyers seem convinced that if the court appoints an administrator by the 28th March, then they believe that the points will definately be deducted this season, not next sseason.
Do you see my confusion here?

My understanding was based on a recent article I read about Pompey (here: http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/sport/pompey/pompey-fears-over-points-deduction-next-season-1-4852481), and quotes like this:

By the time of the hearing – two-and-a-half weeks before the final match of the season – the relegation fate from League One for Guy Whittingham’s side is likely to have been decided. And that will see pressure on Football League chiefs from the other 71 clubs to apply the deduction the following campaign. he News understands the League are conscious that taking points away from an already-relegated club may not be perceived as a punishment.

I read that to mean the league can levy the deduction the following season if they think there has not been sufficient punishment. I guess Portsmouth's situation is a little more complicated though and concerned a CVA, so perhaps I am reading this wrong. BTW, do your posts always have to be laced with all that sarcasm?

Paxman II · Mar 14, 2013

Regardless the point is the hearing has to take place first. Have any of you ever had court proceedings? Particularly business ones?

There are avenues that will get in the way of any points deduction this season if ACL even get their wish at a hearing and the outcome they want eventually. The likely scenario there is a 20 point deduction next season. Can't help think ACL are playing with fire in the public domain of a 125 year or so old football club and history of the City with the backing by numpties at the Council.

Who has the biggest balls? SISU or ACL/Council?

Remember it is all mostly about non payment of rent and some fees. Remember SISU are the largest creditors. Remember CCFC and who operates them? (which company)

Now are ACL absolutely watertight and sure? have they supplied information requested by CCFC to make their judgement on the offer ACL made them?

I would be very surprised if this went to plan as according to the ACL statement.

Of course any number of actions can be taken to void any legal action right up to the point of any hearing...

Paxman II · Mar 14, 2013

....just to add:

What I'm saying is ACL are trying to smoke them out and making a very poor job of it. If they succeed the aftermath may be so great in the public domain that their very own credibility will be trashed...and that's not just in the eyes of 30,000 or so supporters but among the wider audience of some 500,000 in the region. And the council numpties? Well percieved as 'bailing out' ACL (a company formed by them to operate independently) and ruining the football club? You decide the flack that follows!
...just imagine if we did get 10 points off and had made the playoffs and saw it wiped out? Wow I hope ACL/Council have thought this through...

The only caveate to it is SISU's threat to liquidate was a very real one but I would have thought first line of inquiry would be set up a meeting with SISU and demand some straight answers in front of witnesses and the lawyers not run to the court. what's wrong with demanding the court appoint a mediator? Did Fisher not say on radio he welcomed such a decision?

Flying Fokker · Mar 14, 2013

theferret said:
You seem unaware that ultimately it is the Football League that decide when the points deduction will be levied. That will, almost certainly, be next season because any points deduction imposed before the end of this season will have little effect, we will simply go from upper mid-table to lower mid-table.

The only possible exception would be if we somehow forced our way into a play off position by the end of the season. Imagine that though, our first top 6 finish in 42 years only to be taken off us because of our local council. The fall out from that would be fun.

It will have killed the glimmer of playoffs

Flying Fokker · Mar 14, 2013

VegetableSamosa said:
You're going to hate me for this, but my Dad is an accountant within the council and has worked on the ACL payments and such. And I appreciate that second hard sources, like "I know a guy who knows a guy" or whatever isn't perhaps the most trustworthy of sources.

He said his understanding was that it was only the CCFC Holding that was subject to the administration and that they are not going after the football arm of the business. SISU are quite adept at separating parts of their business and moving funds and debts around as needed. Then again, he might be wrong in his understanding as the announcement came after the close of play work wise, but he has had to have an eye on these shenanigans for a while. Also, gotta reiterate, he's sky blue through and through.

You could get dad the sack.

Stafford_SkBlue · Mar 14, 2013

A "good" scenario - reach playoffs gain promotion and start next season in Championship with -10. Is this possible??

Someone could buy the club from SISU before the court hearing??? It looks like this is the last resort from ACL to force SISU to negotiate sensibly or sell.
Not all lost yet.

i think the date rule must had been introduced after leeds went into Admin as soon it looked like relegation was unavoidable.

With admin happening and us losing 10 points (1 Viewer)

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