World Rugby bans trans females from the women's game (2 Viewers)

[Evo1883]

I think it's the correct decision to protect the women's game, a thing I didn't actually realise... An inactive man of no athletic ability on average still has much greater grip strength than a female world championship level judo athlete..
Away from the emotional argument, more should be done to protect women's sport across the board

 

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[Skyblueweeman]

I think it's the correct decision to protect the women's game, a thing I didn't actually realise... An inactive man of no athletic ability on average still has much greater grip strength than a female world championship level judo athlete..
Away from the emotional argument, more should be done to protect women's sport across the board

Is that a fact about the grip - like scientifically proven or just your assumption?

No dig at all, just genuinely intrigued if it's true or not.

 

[Nick]

It's a bit of an unfair advantage.

 

[Evo1883]

Is that a fact about the grip - like scientifically proven or just your assumption?

No dig at all, just genuinely intrigued if it's true or not.

I was listening to some sports science lady on sky sports news this morning when they discussed it, so I heard it off her, like I said I didn't realise this was true

 

[Evo1883]

This is from the national library of medicine

Hand-grip strength was linearly correlated with LBM. Furthermore, both relative hand-grip strength parameters (F (max)/body weight and F (max)/LBM) did not show any correlation to hand dimensions. The present findings show that the differences in hand-grip strength of men and women are larger than previously reported. An appreciable difference still remains when using lean body mass as reference. The results of female national elite athletes even indicate that the strength level attainable by extremely high training will rarely surpass the 50th percentile of untrained or not specifically trained men.

 

[Evo1883]

This comes by the way, with the news that women in Rugby will be 20-30% more likely to become seriously injured if trans women (is that correct) are involved

Protect women's sport, simple as that

 

[Nick]

I want to see trans women in boxing.

Imagine somebody like Dillian Whyte becoming Trans and then getting in the ring.

Might get messy.

 

[pastythegreat]

I want to see trans women in boxing.

Imagine somebody like Dillian Whyte becoming Trans and then getting in the ring.

Might get messy.

Cant stand Katie Taylor, is it wrong that I'd love to see him as a bird smash her in the face???

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[shmmeee]

I want to see trans women in boxing.

Imagine somebody like Dillian Whyte becoming Trans and then getting in the ring.

Might get messy.

Fallon Fox in MMA is trans.

Lots of evidence that high testosterone levels at puberty give a permanent advantage in lots of areas. With other physiological differences like running gait entirely unchanged.

This will probably mean intersex athletes like Casta Semenya (sp?) get banned from women’s sports but TBH that’s probably fair. Some DSDs like CAIS confer a significant sporting advantage and apparently are massively overrepresented in women’s sport.

 

[Marty]

Men are bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive, more violent, etc. Having men and women compete in the same event because a man suddenly decides they're a women is frankly stupid.

 

[Razzle Dazzle Dean Gordon]

I want to see trans women in boxing.

Imagine somebody like Dillian Whyte becoming Trans and then getting in the ring.

Might get messy.

I've seen a few female shotputters id back vs Dillian Whyte to be honest

 

[shmmeee]

The other side of this of course is trans men, who because they’re actually women and misogyny exists are forgotten in this, should be allowed to play in the men’s league but would probably be massively underrepresented.

Seems a Paralympic situation is needed for trans and DSD athletes.

 

[Travs]

I don't pretend to know the moral or scientific ins and outs of this... and frankly i don't really care... but i think the only reasonable way to look at this, is that if you decide to change sex then unfortunately elite sport is no longer going to be open to you as a career choice.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Men are bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive, more violent, etc. Having men and women compete in the same event because a man suddenly decides they're a women is frankly stupid.

As a general rule yes but by no means a steadfast rule. Plenty of women who're far more aggressive and violent than a lot of men who would be perceived socially as 'meek'. Women like Cleopatra, Boudica and Empress Wu of China were absolute nutcases you really wouldn't want to cross. There was an African queen who had a harem of men and would force them to fight to the death to spend the night with her. Then the winner would be killed the following morning. Plenty of women who're more athletic, faster, stronger than their male siblings.

 

[shmmeee]

As a general rule yes but by no means a steadfast rule. Plenty of women who're far more aggressive and violent than a lot of men who would be perceived socially as 'meek'. Women like Cleopatra, Boudica and Empress Wu of China were absolute nutcases you really wouldn't want to cross. There was an African queen who had a harem of men and would force them to fight to the death to spend the night with her. Then the winner would be killed the following morning. Plenty of women who're more athletic, faster, stronger than their male siblings.

You're talking outliers here. Given the same training men will always be faster and stronger than women. Most elite womens sports records are around the level of male school boys records.

 

[clint van damme]

Men are bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive, more violent, etc. Having men and women compete in the same event because a man suddenly decides they're a women is frankly stupid.

and dangerous

 

[Evo1883]

and dangerous

True, things like testosterone etc go towards that and.... Evolution plays it part too

Males of many different species are simply more dangerous.. Ofcourse there are exceptions though

 

[Grendel]

As a general rule yes but by no means a steadfast rule. Plenty of women who're far more aggressive and violent than a lot of men who would be perceived socially as 'meek'. Women like Cleopatra, Boudica and Empress Wu of China were absolute nutcases you really wouldn't want to cross. There was an African queen who had a harem of men and would force them to fight to the death to spend the night with her. Then the winner would be killed the following morning. Plenty of women who're more athletic, faster, stronger than their male siblings.

Thats just silly

Just look at Renee Richards as a real example

 

[shmmeee]

Could we perhaps lose the pejorative


Surely a ftm would have an unfair advantage in synchronised swimming?.....

A team of FtM maybe? Don’t know much about swimming, what’s the advantage?

 

[Evo1883]

A team of FtM maybe? Don’t know much about swimming, what’s the advantage?

Swimming requires upper body strength and leg strength... I'd imagine even with the loss of strength that hormone replacement causes, it would still be an advantage, it's one of the arguments by world rugby, even after hormone treatment the strength is still too great

 

[shmmeee]

Trying to look at this logically:

Sex change/hormone use is a medical intervention to correct an illness (gender dysphoria). There are I believe other medical conditions treated by steroids or testosterone or other performance enhancing drugs. I assume athletes undergoing those treatments aren’t allowed to compete? Is that right?

 

[Grendel]

Swimming requires upper body strength and leg strength... I'd imagine even with the loss of strength that hormone replacement causes, it would still be an advantage, it's one of the arguments by world rugby, even after hormone treatment the strength is still too great

He didn’t say swimming to be fair

 

[Evo1883]

Trying to look at this logically:

Sex change/hormone use is a medical intervention to correct an illness (gender dysphoria). There are I believe other medical conditions treated by steroids or testosterone or other performance enhancing drugs. I assume athletes undergoing those treatments aren’t allowed to compete? Is that right?

Unsure what classes as a performance enhancing drug that goes against sports rules myself

 

[Evo1883]

He didn’t say swimming to be fair

I know, misread it myself

 

[Evo1883]

Messi for example was given growth hormones when he was younger.. So some things are obviously passed ok I just don't know what

 

[Deleted member 4439]

Swimming requires upper body strength and leg strength... I'd imagine even with the loss of strength that hormone replacement causes, it would still be an advantage, it's one of the arguments by world rugby, even after hormone treatment the strength is still too great

it was a misogynist quip - ftm - a female who transitions to male. Was thinking they'd still be more graceful

 

[SkyBlueDom26]

Good it’s unfair

 

[ccfcway]

Men are bigger, faster, stronger, more aggressive, more violent, etc. Having men and women compete in the same event because a man suddenly decides they're a women is frankly stupid.

be fine in darts or snooker

 

[Deleted member 4439]

be fine in darts or snooker

and rifling. I guess here we stumble onto that well-worn discussion of games vs sports (and yes, we do have the Commonwealth 'Games').

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Is that a fact about the grip - like scientifically proven or just your assumption?

No dig at all, just genuinely intrigued if it's true or not.

The issue regarding trans-participation is a dicey issue.

Some issues to consider:
- biological males have denser bones than females
- puberty increases the upper body strength in biological males (one study found the average female could throw a ball further than a male about 2 times in 1,000)
- as well as testosterone production, which influences things like muscle growth
- transitioning male to female use hormone therapy to complete their transition, and oestrogen actually increases bone density further

The interesting observation to make is that trans participation is only an ‘issue’ in women’s sports, because of notable trans athletes our competing against biological females at the very elite of sports, but not in the men’s divisions, yet.

My view is that trans athletes find themselves in a difficult place. The fairest solution would probably be divisions specially for transgender athletes so they get the recognition they deserve, but without the controversy.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Trying to look at this logically:

Sex change/hormone use is a medical intervention to correct an illness (gender dysphoria). There are I believe other medical conditions treated by steroids or testosterone or other performance enhancing drugs. I assume athletes undergoing those treatments aren’t allowed to compete? Is that right?

Testosterone levels are measured in contact sports, such as MMA.

I’m asthmatic, and even the levels of of the steroids in inhalers are measured in some sports testing. The most notable example I can recently think of is Froome’s test.

Athletes even need to be careful buying (legal) supplements such as protein powders, BCAAs, creatine and so on. This is because trace amounts of illegal substances can find their way into these types of products.

 

[skybluesam66]

I watched a film on the American Samoa football team. They used to be bottom of the ranking after losing every game heavily. Anyway with a new coach they also had a transgender player. Lady by day until she got to the changing Football and the third sex: transgender Jaiyah Saelua's story | The Football Pink

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

The issue regarding trans-participation is a dicey issue.

Some issues to consider:
- biological males have denser bones than females
- puberty increases the upper body strength in biological males (one study found the average female could throw a ball further than a male about 2 times in 1,000)
- as well as testosterone production, which influences things like muscle growth
- transitioning male to female use hormone therapy to complete their transition, and oestrogen actually increases bone density further

The interesting observation to make is that trans participation is only an ‘issue’ in women’s sports, because of notable trans athletes our competing against biological females at the very elite of sports, but not in the men’s divisions, yet.

My view is that trans athletes find themselves in a difficult place. The fairest solution would probably be divisions specially for transgender athletes so they get the recognition they deserve, but without the controversy.

I'm guessing with the transgender divisions you'd have to have one male to female and one female to male to allow for the biological differences.

Would there also be different levels like at the paralympics for those at different stages of transition?