Do you want to discuss boring politics? (14 Viewers)

fernandopartridge

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Dec 9, 2011
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Owen Jones doing Owen Jones things.

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This is just fundamentally false. And it’s the conceit every supposed left wing voter who refuses to vote Labour creates.

I’ve seen actual human beings claiming Labour are fascist and “disaster capitalist” (whatever that’s supposed to mean in this context. It certainly doesn’t match anything Klein wrote about.). It’s overly online derangement syndrome.

This is a party that has yet to release its manifesto and even after “becoming Tory” (appealing to the median British voter in an election year) is promising:

- Nationalised energy
- Investment in safe and legal route and improved processing of asylum applications
- Free breakfast clubs
- End private school tax break
- Massive green energy investment
- Workers rights reforms
- House building

And this is a party following the Biden model of centrist in the streets and leftist in the sheets. And like Biden the left can’t see it.

Is it Jeremy’s Great Socialist Extravaganza? No. Does it look like it will actually happen? Yes. Which means Starmer will do infinitely more for the poor that Corbyn ever came close to.

You have decided that Starmer will definitely do things that he hasn’t even said he’ll do, because he has rowed back on things he said he would do. It’s just confirmation bias all the way down. Occams Razor is he’s a politician trying to get elected in the UK saying all the things people who get elected have to say. Yet no, this is 2024 and mental Twitter conspiracy takes are king and obviously Keir Starmer spent his whole life in progressive politics as a feint so he can really institute a mild Tory agenda. He stayed out of the much more successful Tory party where these ideas are both easy to get through and actually in government more often than not, because reasons.

It’s a take only taken by people who have never met a Labour Party politician other than through a clipped TikTok clip or an out of context screenshot on Twitter. The idea that even if they aren’t pushing for the People’s Republic of Britain are somehow not ideologically opposed to the Tories is just fucking insane. “Oh but shmmeee I met a bloke and he was quite right wing and a Labour councillor/MP/commentator” was he as right wing as the equivalent Tory for that area? Is he representative of the vast majority of the party that lets be honest is almost exclusively very left wing people?

I’m so fucking done with explaining basic electoral facts to fuckwits who claim to be into politics. If you don’t understand that the median voter thinks Labour spend too much and will let all the immigrants in, or you don’t understand how election messaging works (hint it is barely paid any attention to and needs to be big and obvious and repeated multiple times), or you would rather take the fever imaginings of “NeverLabourCorbz4LyfeStalinDidNothingWrong” than fucking look at the evidence of the last “right wing” Labour government and what it did for: child poverty, social mobility, wages, the economy, equality law, public services despite being run by someone significantly to the right of Starmer and in spite of their fuck ups. If you look at that and go “no actually I want the Tories to win” (because that’s what a non-Labour vote is in our system) then I have real trouble taking you seriously and so should everyone else.

Is Starmer overly cautious? Yes. Is that completely fucking understandable after 14 years of opposition? Also yes.

If you withhold your vote and make Labour lose/cut it close, and think that will make Labour move left and not right to gain more votes, please just fucking read one book about electoral politics. Or a Wikipedia article.


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clint van damme

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May 3, 2015
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I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change

Edit - deleted my comment, was unfair
 

duffer

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Oct 28, 2010
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I’ve come to the conclusion that governing is too hard for my socialist friends to consider so they’d much rather moan and blame and accuse others than have the reigns to make a meaningful change

Couple of thoughts, Pete.

"Socialist" needs definition before you accuse someone of either being or not being one.

So let's stick with the centre-left as the people you're accusing of not wanting to be in government.

So typically, in my book, that means being in favour of a mixed economy (not a five-year plan for Tractors etc.), nationalisation of key infrastructure, rail, and utilities, being broadly in favour of a redistribution of wealth to reduce inequality, support for trade unions and workers' rights, and having a humane welfare system and a working NHS.

Having made that definition, that's broadly where I stand, and where the Labour party used to be. What gives you the impression that I wouldn't want that party to take the reins, I used to be in it.
 

duffer

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Oct 28, 2010
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Couple of thoughts, Pete.

"Socialist" needs definition before you accuse someone of either being or not being one.

So let's stick with the centre-left as the people you're accusing of not wanting to be in government.

So typically, in my book, that means being in favour of a mixed economy (not a five-year plan for Tractors etc.), nationalisation of key infrastructure, rail, and utilities, being broadly in favour of a redistribution of wealth to reduce inequality, support for trade unions and workers' rights, and having a humane welfare system and a working NHS.

Having made that definition, that's broadly where I stand, and where the Labour party used to be. What gives you the impression that I wouldn't want that party to take the reins, I used to be in it.

P.S. I do consider you a friend mate, even if it's only on here. Shmmeee too. Christ, I even quite like @rob9872 and he's obviously a Tory nutter. 😁

We can talk about this stuff, and even differ substantially without hating each other*, I hope. I value these discussions, it's good to have one's opinions challenged.

*Except for @Otis, obviously. I can't bear that bloke and his ongoing and blatant attempt to privatise the entire rail industry and bring it under his sole command. 😄
 

Sky Blue Pete

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Nov 24, 2012
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Couple of thoughts, Pete.

"Socialist" needs definition before you accuse someone of either being or not being one.

So let's stick with the centre-left as the people you're accusing of not wanting to be in government.

So typically, in my book, that means being in favour of a mixed economy (not a five-year plan for Tractors etc.), nationalisation of key infrastructure, rail, and utilities, being broadly in favour of a redistribution of wealth to reduce inequality, support for trade unions and workers' rights, and having a humane welfare system and a working NHS.

Having made that definition, that's broadly where I stand, and where the Labour party used to be. What gives you the impression that I wouldn't want that party to take the reins, I used to be in it.
A well made argument
I consider myself in the same place
I believe starmers Labour Party will be in that space
 
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duffer

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Oct 28, 2010
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A well made argument
I consider myself in the same place
I believe starmers Labour Party will be in that space

And I guess, with every respect, that is where we differ Pete, because I don't see Starmer supporting or even trying to make the case for any of those things (except for some comments regarding workers' rights, perhaps).

In fact, it seems he's rapidly backed away from those commitments.

In a very simplistic way, I see it like this: If you take on conservative fiscal rules, and you're against any kind of redistribution of wealth, and you don't increase taxation at any level, then your only other option is continued austerity.

Otherwise it's the magical mystery growth tour which somehow funds change, and as the last 14 years have shown, that bus ain't running (other than through immigration).
 

Sky Blue Pete

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Nov 24, 2012
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And I guess, with every respect, that is where we differ Pete, because I don't see Starmer supporting or even trying to make the case for any of those things (except for some comments regarding workers' rights, perhaps).

In fact, it seems he's rapidly backed away from those commitments.

In a very simplistic way, I see it like this: If you take on conservative fiscal rules, and you're against any kind of redistribution of wealth, and you don't increase taxation at any level, then your only other option is continued austerity.

Otherwise it's the magical mystery growth tour which somehow funds change, and as the last 14 years have shown, that bus ain't running (other than through immigration).
There’s no alternative is there? As shmmee says
 

rob9872

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Mar 21, 2011
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P.S. I do consider you a friend mate, even if it's only on here. Shmmeee too. Christ, I even quite like @rob9872 and he's obviously a Tory nutter. 😁

We can talk about this stuff, and even differ substantially without hating each other*, I hope. I value these discussions, it's good to have one's opinions challenged.

*Except for @Otis, obviously. I can't bear that bloke and his ongoing and blatant attempt to privatise the entire rail industry and bring it under his sole command. 😄
I've been trying to avoid this thread so I only talk City and stop falling out with people, don't drag me back in 🤣🤣
(Fingers in ears)
 

Ian1779

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Dec 6, 2012
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There’s no alternative is there? As shmmee says
The people that tell us there are ‘difficult decisions to make’ are never those who suffer directly as a result of those decisions.

Its disappointing that you can’t see Austerity Mk2 coming over the horizon, and even more so that you’re ambivalent to it.
 

Liquid Gold

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Sep 16, 2013
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Brizzle
I would think there is a big sigh of relief in the Labour Party that Owen has gone.

And I find it really hard to believe even Labour can screw this up, the Conservatives have imploded and will need their time in the wilderness.

Can I envisage Labour making a mess of things, well yes there are plenty of precedents. How long will that take, well it also requires the Conservatives to get a grip so who knows?

Both have the tides of history against them and it will be impossible to detach themselves from their contribution.

Interesting times.
Labour will absolutely fuck this up. Not the election obviously, they're already sorted. But they will fuck up in government by following the same failed neo-liberal economic model that has bought the country to its knees.

Then our only option is the Conservatives who will either have stayed on the right or drifted back towards the centre right and will deliver the same failed model.

The country has been robbed blind and we need massive government intervention in such a huge variety of sectors. Instead we'll get new Labour's "ooo look we bought poverty down by 3%" but done nothing structural to change the tories coming back and knocking another 10% into poverty.
 

Sky Blue Pete

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The people that tell us there are ‘difficult decisions to make’ are never those who suffer directly as a result of those decisions.

Its disappointing that you can’t see Austerity Mk2 coming over the horizon, and even more so that you’re ambivalent to it.
Who says?
 

Ian1779

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Who says?
Reeves and Starmer have come out time and again and said they will follow Tory fiscal rules, not legislate for a wealth tax and appear to be expecting to grow the economy simply on ‘vibes’ - after the last 14 years surely we deserve more that that.

I will admit I stupidly fell for the ‘all in this together’ line from 2010 - never again.
 
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Sky Blue Pete

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Reeves and Starmer have come out time and again and said they will follow Tory fiscal rules, not legislate for a wealth tax and appear to be expecting to grow the economy simply on ‘vibes’ - after the last 14 years surely we deserve more that that.

I will admit I stupidly fell for the ‘all in this together’ line from 2010 - never again.
Sorry who says I don’t see
 

Ian1779

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Sorry who says I don’t see
So why say that governing is too hard for your socialist friends? Is making people suffer a necessary condition of governing? You’ve seen the headlines even today about child poverty and the best we can offer our young people is ‘I’m sorry we have to ensure we obey our imaginary fiscal rules’
 
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Sky Blue Pete

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So why say that governing is too hard for your socialist friends? Is making people suffer a necessary condition of governing? You’ve seen the headlines even today about child poverty and the best we can offer our young people is ‘I’m sorry we have to ensure we obey our imaginary fiscal rules’
I think he’s wrong but is portraying a steady hand as the country is centrist and risk averse
 

Liquid Gold

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Brizzle
I think he’s wrong but is portraying a steady hand as the country is centrist and risk averse
I don't think the country is risk averse.

They voted for Brext because they were desperate for change.
Corbyn got rid of May's majority because they were desperate for change.
Johnson got a stonking majority promising to deliver the Brexit people thought would bring change.
Now people are going to give the Tories the mother of all kickings because they've changed fuck all.

Starmer could at least offer some crumbs.
 
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fernandopartridge

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Dec 9, 2011
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I think he’s wrong but is portraying a steady hand as the country is centrist and risk averse
Not sure, is that because the country's media tells people they are, whereas the reality is that a lot of people are very keen on state provision, certainly of utilities, transport, health services.

What risk are you talking about here?

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Sky Blue Pete

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Not sure, is that because the country's media tells people they are, whereas the reality is that a lot of people are very keen on state provision, certainly of utilities, transport, health services.

What risk are you talking about here?

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Economic
Spending mainly
 

Grendel

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Sep 19, 2011
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Why even comment on such a non story?

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The funny thing was when he said he’s a massive football fan and goes to lots of mens and womens games
 
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Sky Blue Pete

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Why is the country in such an abysmal and hopeless state



It's definitely not the Oxbridge morons from the media and politics

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Thought Emily handled it well
Dismissive and saying she couldn’t understand why it would be changed I think I agree
Not that I care compared with poverty
 
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fernandopartridge

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Thought Emily handled it well
Dismissive and saying she couldn’t understand why it would be changed I think I agree
Not that I care compared with poverty
Handling it well would be "don't ask me such a stupid question" but doing that would expose her leader

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Grendel

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Thought Emily handled it well
Dismissive and saying she couldn’t understand why it would be changed I think I agree
Not that I care compared with poverty

Lol Thornberry was booted out the shadow cabinet for slagging the thick working class workers who hang them out their windows.

Handled it well! She’s an appalling snob and a hypocrite
 

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