Freehold of The Arena AND all its surrounds?!? (1 Viewer)

[Noggin]

I am of the belief that this is the issue though. Your comment implies its unreasonable, my response suggests its the only arrangement any sane buyer would countenance.

No the sane buyer buys acl and the freehold, or just acl. or acl and agrees a price for a lease extension up to 99 years with the council.

The insane buyer asks to buy something that can't be sold and the insane poster posts in support of them.

 

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[Godiva]

Grendel raises a good point though MMM and it's a continuing point in Smouch's post below, when Richardson planned to build the Arena, it was because he wanted a venue that could be used 365 days a year to be able to fully support the growth of the Club, I am not surprised Sisu want it all, it was the original pipe dream of one of the many parties that put us in this mess. PH4 is no different, as is no one else that would come in.

Yes, that's the key issue now and has been for years - the club must own all revenue streams generated in and around the stadium. No matter who owns the club.

 

[Noggin]

As has been said on previous posts the key word in what she said was "unfettered". It would appear that SISU want CCC to handle the winding up of ACL's lease, which in turn would require ACL to wind up their leases. This would be an expensive and complicated affair. Far easier and more pragmatic would be for SISU to buy ACL too.

Exactly, but I think we need to empathise more how stupid and ridiculous a request it really is.

Stupidly Expensive, Stupidly complicated, incredibly inefficient time and cost wise, incredibly risky and completely bat shit nuts

 

[smouch1975]

Hey. Nobody has said, they have the money. Or that it's morally right. It's just obvious what the end game and packaged weekend SISU want control of!!

Either SISU aren't prepared to pay the price for this or this is another shifting of stance by them that enables them the illusion of negotiation perhaps pending the JR decision.

 

[italiahorse]

Yes it was brilliant,when the women were cleaning your wheels they would sling their saggy's over their shoulder so not to get in the way.

Yes. My Mrs lost her job when the team moved to Sixfields. Bloody SISU.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Grendel raises a good point though MMM and it's a continuing point in Smouch's post below, when Richardson planned to build the Arena, it was because he wanted a venue that could be used 365 days a year to be able to fully support the growth of the Club, I am not surprised Sisu want it all, it was the original pipe dream of one of the many parties that put us in this mess. PH4 is no different, as is no one else that would come in.

Two points. Firstly, do you have any evidence that PH4 wanted this? I have it on record he wanted to buy the council's share of ACL, and there are reports that he wanted to buy the Higgs share too. He expressed an interest in the football club in administration too. But I can't see anywhere where it's reported be looked at the freehold of the Arena, or it's surrounding land. Without this, all we're left with is 'I bet he wanted', or 'I think his ambition was'.....

Whereas, and the reason I wanted to separate the debates, is that this is a statement, made by the leader of the council, coming from her own lips. Therefore we, can debate as to how 'reasonable' it is. That's the difference

 

[kingharvest]

Just my thoughts. but buying ACL out of their lease is one thing if they're in a strong position - lose the JR and they might be in a lot of financial trouble. Much cheaper to buy them out then.However, you could distress them so much they just go out of business?

 

[Astute]

I'm sorry MMM, I'm with grenduffy on this. The whole package. A night in a hotel, 3 meals. Booze and games in a casino. Valet parking. Other outlets benefiting from sales. That's the key

90 mins and a balti pie. Forget it

And this is the reason why we are in Northampton.

Joy has admitted she knows nothing about football. But she knows how to make money for her investors. This don't mean making money for our football club. Timothy admitted that our club wouldn't own the stadium if they got it. SISU and their investors would own everything.

Can anyone explain how any of this would help our football club? They have proved to me they don't care about our club or us fans.

 

[Grendel]

Exactly, but I think we need to empathise more how stupid and ridiculous a request it really is.

Stupidly Expensive, Stupidly complicated, incredibly inefficient time and cost wise, incredibly risky and completely bat shit nuts

I think you've been reading too much council literature. I think for the "right" buyer it could happen. The new buzz word is "unfettered" are you seriously saying to me that such a deal has never happened ever in the history of buying and selling?

 

[smouch1975]

No. It's of no help to the club. And??
Grendal stated what he thinks they are after. I agree. It's of no benefit to CCFC.

Are the ticket prices at Arsenal of benefit to their supporters?

And this is the reason why we are in Northampton.

Joy has admitted she knows nothing about football. But she knows how to make money for her investors. This don't mean making money for our football club. Timothy admitted that our club wouldn't own the stadium if they got it. SISU and their investors would own everything.

Can anyone explain how any of this would help our football club? They have proved to me they don't care about our club or us fans.

 

[Astute]

I think you've been reading too much council literature. I think for the "right" buyer it could happen. The new buzz word is "unfettered" are you seriously saying to me that such a deal has never happened ever in the history of buying and selling?

And are you saying it would be able to happen with taxpayers money when it would cost more to pay off all contracts and loans than SISU would pay once everything has been settled?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Two points. Firstly, do you have any evidence that PH4 wanted this? I have it on record he wanted to buy the council's share of ACL, and there are reports that he wanted to buy the Higgs share too. He expressed an interest in the football club in administration too. But I can't see anywhere where it's reported be looked at the freehold of the Arena, or it's surrounding land. Without this, all we're left with is 'I bet he wanted', or 'I think his ambition was'.....

Whereas, and the reason I wanted to separate the debates, is that this is a statement, made by the leader of the council, coming from her own lips. Therefore we, can debate as to how 'reasonable' it is. That's the difference

Is there a second point or did you forget it??

No there is no evidence that he wanted it but PH4 is a property developer so I am going to go out and say more than likely, lets then take Byng as well they wanted the whole thing so they could invest to the land around it, Sisu are no different, if you have it on record dear chap I'd like to see it, because from what I remember it was never stated in any article by CT.

 

[Astute]

No. It's of no help to the club. And??
Grendal stated what he thinks they are after. I agree. It's of no benefit to CCFC.

Are the ticket prices at Arsenal of benefit to their supporters?

So why would any supporter of CCFC want something to happen that wouldn't benefit our club? All it would do is tighten their grasp on our club. And they don't care about it or us.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Yes, that's the key issue now and has been for years - the club must own all revenue streams generated in and around the stadium. No matter who owns the club.

First point; no it doesn't. The key factor is financial prudence. Income exceeding expenditure. The club could have worked as a business without the incomes you elude to, with good cost control - many clubs like Crewe do. The additional revenues would have given the club more income; to match further investment against. Your line is a fallacy.

If SISU had evidenced good cost control, but we'd been relegated with a young, inexperienced squad; and they'd explained that the quality of the squad was as a function of incomes they couldn't secure, and that with access to revenues the could strengthen and compete; then we'd al subscribe to it. But they didn't.

The second point is that access to a 24:7 income is desirable. Of course it is. But the model built at Coventry - the mix of conferences, concerts and other streams - is quite extraordinary. It has an intrinsic value. Yes, ideally, in a win:win situation, this should be unified with the club. But it has a value and it needs to be purchased at a fair rate.

PH4 was mentioned above. He was engaged in looking to buy the council and Higgs shares of ACL. It appears he got a warm reception. Maybe that's because he was looking at paying a value consummate with the business' worth?

 

[Astute]

Is there a second point or did you forget it??

No there is no evidence that he wanted it but PH4 is a property developer so I am going to go out and say more than likely, lets then take Byng as well they wanted the whole thing so they could invest to the land around it, Sisu are no different, if you have it on record dear chap I'd like to see it, because from what I remember it was never stated in any article by CT.

I wouldn't exactly trust PH4 or Byng......but would trust them a lot more than SISU.

 

[Captain Dart]

As has been said on previous posts the key word in what she said was "unfettered". It would appear that SISU want CCC to handle the winding up of ACL's lease, which in turn would require ACL to wind up their leases. This would be an expensive and complicated affair. Far easier and more pragmatic would be for SISU to buy ACL too.
I haven't heard anything that would suggest that CCC would rule this out and I think that Higgs, as part owners of ACL, would go along too.
Either SISU aren't prepared to pay the price for this or this is another shifting of stance by them that enables them the illusion of negotiation perhaps pending the JR decision.

So volunteer to undermine the businesses that are already there. It is not going to happen is it!

 

[Grendel]

And are you saying it would be able to happen with taxpayers money when it would cost more to pay off all contracts and loans than SISU would pay once everything has been settled?

I assume acl own the contracts? What would happen if prior to sake the loan was demanded back and they were liquidated? What happens to the contracts?

 

[italiahorse]

And this is the reason why we are in Northampton.

Joy has admitted she knows nothing about football. But she knows how to make money for her investors. This don't mean making money for our football club. Timothy admitted that our club wouldn't own the stadium if they got it. SISU and their investors would own everything.

Can anyone explain how any of this would help our football club? They have proved to me they don't care about our club or us fans.

The only way this helps the club is some method of cross accounting to show income streams go into the club first before going into SISU account.
Exactly what was offered in one of the early ACL offers.

The facts here are that even if SISU own the complex the club will not benefit from the surrounding facilities profits. Exactly the same as ACL ownership.
You can deduce that CCFC and the fans are just a means to an end.
Can't believe people back SISU when they never come out with a statement that can be backed up.
Yet the council are transparent in their offers and position on ownership. They are also accountable to the public.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Is there a second point or did you forget it??

No there is no evidence that he wanted it but PH4 is a property developer so I am going to go out and say more than likely, lets then take Byng as well they wanted the whole thing so they could invest to the land around it, Sisu are no different, if you have it on record dear chap I'd like to see it, because from what I remember it was never stated in any article by CT.

Old age, defeats me again with the second question. So, what you are saying is that you have no evidence that PH4 wanted to buy the freehold; whereas Ann Lucas clearly stated that this is SISU's clear demand - but you think the situations are the same in any context? And you wonder why it's frustrating when people include 'similar' situations to avoid answering a straight question like 'how reasonable is SISU's position'? :facepalm:

 

[Astute]

I assume acl own the contracts? What would happen if prior to sake the loan was demanded back and they were liquidated? What happens to the contracts?

And what evidence is there that this will happen? Lobotomy saying he believes? He has as much of a clue as you do.

 

[Grendel]

And what evidence is there that this will happen? Lobotomy saying he believes? He has as much of a clue as you do.

In saying if that did happen would it make the deal possible?

 

[Noggin]

I think you've been reading too much council literature. I think for the "right" buyer it could happen. The new buzz word is "unfettered" are you seriously saying to me that such a deal has never happened ever in the history of buying and selling?

Council literature? it's very simple to see how stupid this request is. I can only assume you don't understand it, or you are being deliberately unreasonable because anyone who does understand what is being asked can easily see its stupid.

It could happen if the land were oil fields or something and it was worth paying massively over the odds to pay out lots of leases so you could unlock the billions in value beneath, or in situations like that

But a deal similar to what is being suggested yeah I bet it's never happened legitly in the history of buying and selling, it's probably happened by force in history where people are threatened and bullied out of their leases, or even killed, but legitly and without paying massively more than what it's worth, no I bet it's never happened.

We own a flat, in a block of 20 flats, where the freehold owner only owns 1 flat. It's like going to him and asking to buy the whole lot. He basically has to buy 19 x 160k flats before he can sell the whole lot, it's a ludicrous request.

 

[James Smith]

Yes, that's the key issue now and has been for years - the club must own all revenue streams generated in and around the stadium. No matter who owns the club.

I agree and I thought that was always the plan that Sisu had when they acquired us - buy the Higgs share and then buy the council out too. That always seemed to me to be the best thing as it meant we could be a team and club that wasn't reliant on the bank overdraft or loans from directors and had year round income. It's a pity that it wasn't the priority of Sisu and Ranson.

 

[smouch1975]

So why would any supporter of CCFC want something to happen that wouldn't benefit our club? All it would do is tighten their grasp on our club. And they don't care about it or us.

Never, ever said I wanted it to happen. Only it's obvious what the game plan is

 

[Noggin]

I assume acl own the contracts? What would happen if prior to sake the loan was demanded back and they were liquidated? What happens to the contracts?

You can't demand a loan back, there will be a contract. Think how much money banks could make if they demanded their mortgage back

 

[torchomatic]

Plan Apple?

Of course they want the land. They would need it to build this new stadium which is plan A.

 

[torchomatic]

It seems that all involved seem to "imply" a lot rather than "saying" anything.

Didn't Bob Ainsworth post a map showing some of the land (one of the car parks?) belonged to the council and imply that SISU wanted that handed over to them as well?

 

[torchomatic]

You'll find that most owners know nothing about football. From the Glazers to Tan to SISU.

And this is the reason why we are in Northampton.

Joy has admitted she knows nothing about football. But she knows how to make money for her investors. This don't mean making money for our football club. Timothy admitted that our club wouldn't own the stadium if they got it. SISU and their investors would own everything.

Can anyone explain how any of this would help our football club? They have proved to me they don't care about our club or us fans.

 

[Grendel]

You can't demand a loan back, there will be a contract. Think how much money banks could make if they demanded their mortgage back

So you know the details of the arrangement do you?

Are you saying this has never, ever happened before in the uk with any business? There is no way anyone could ever get round this watertight legislation? Are you absolutely sure?

 

[Moff]

And a Helter Skelter

I was wavering but if it gets a Helter Skelter i'm in.

 

[torchomatic]

Well, he must be a pretty crap property developer then if he wants to buy something where he can't develop property. Maybe he was only buying into us because he thought Joe E was a nice bloke? "Nah, Joe. Nothing in it for me. I'm doing it for the kids."

Two points. Firstly, do you have any evidence that PH4 wanted this? I have it on record he wanted to buy the council's share of ACL, and there are reports that he wanted to buy the Higgs share too. He expressed an interest in the football club in administration too. But I can't see anywhere where it's reported be looked at the freehold of the Arena, or it's surrounding land. Without this, all we're left with is 'I bet he wanted', or 'I think his ambition was'.....

Whereas, and the reason I wanted to separate the debates, is that this is a statement, made by the leader of the council, coming from her own lips. Therefore we, can debate as to how 'reasonable' it is. That's the difference

 

[Astute]

You'll find that most owners know nothing about football. From the Glazers to Tan to SISU.

Tan and Glazer may not be great owners but they have done better for their clubs than our owners have. They try to make money by having a successful club whereas.....

 

[Moff]

If Haskell or Byng were our owners and brought us home, I would want them now

BUT

lets not hide behind the bullshit. SISU like Haskell or Byng want the stadium, its freehold and the land surrounding, as that is where the money lies, not in the club. None of them want the club on its own, as it doesn't make the cold hard cash and that is what they are after.

People are in denial if they cant see this hard fact. There are very few Abramovich's or Sultans, or megalomaniacs like Vincent Tan around to buy clubs, so its left to those that either want to lose cash for their own vanity as club owners or those like SISU or Haskell or Byng who want the club to get their hands on where the real cash is..the land. I mean lets face it did the Glazers really buy Man Utd because they love football..:facepalm:

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Old age, defeats me again with the second question. So, what you are saying is that you have no evidence that PH4 wanted to buy the freehold; whereas Ann Lucas clearly stated that this is SISU's clear demand - but you think the situations are the same in any context? And you wonder why it's frustrating when people include 'similar' situations to avoid answering a straight question like 'how reasonable is SISU's position'? :facepalm:

No there is no clear evidence that suggests that PH4 wanted the Freehold to the Arena, but being a Property Developer then it is right to assume he might of consider it, you say MMM that you have it on record that he stated otherwise I would like to see that if possible? There were rumours at the time PH4 was interested that he wanted to build another Hotel on one of the Car Parks areas. Of course this is a rumour and not a fact, but to do this he would surely need the Freehold?

It is Sisu's clear demand and in my opinion a reasonable one, baring in mind that they pay the market price, something I have never suggested otherwise.

As I stated earlier in the thread Richardson built this Arena with the purpose that the Club could generate revenue from other sources then just the Stadia on match days, it is not unreasonable for Sisu to want this, if they had this it would improve turnover drastically and could allow the playing squad to be enhanced significantly. However you'll tell me next that's all a pipe dream and they want to see us fall like a ton of bricks, right?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Well, he must be a pretty crap property developer then if he wants to buy something where he can't develop property. Maybe he was only buying into us because he thought Joe E was a nice bloke? "Nah, Joe. Nothing in it for me. I'm doing it for the kids."

It doesn't matter Torchy MMM has it on record this changes everything..