Frustration at lack of transparency (1 Viewer)

[dongonzalos]

It is so frustrating that we don't know who bank rolls sisu.

Either they are very substantialy well off. Cllr mutton was talking figures between 20 to 30 million to do the deal they want and that is not in installments.

If this is true do u think 1 million of that would have kept us up last season.

The only thing I can think is the money is from a seperate source.

If it is, will that source have to reveal themselves. Surely they will have more than a 10 percent share of the club. Or will they invest only in half of the stadium. Stating that they have not invested in the club avoiding the fa rules.

This clandestine approach really gets my goat.


I think if we knew the truth about the finance behind these investors we would go mad.

That is an opinion by the way godiva.

 

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[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Surely SISU are a fund of investors. Their worth is their current sum under management. If they need, and the investment proposition is right, then additional funds will come from existing, or new investors.

The identity of the ultimate investors will never be disclosed, as to do so would make them public to SISU's competitors, who would approach them with their own investment propositions.

Investors are an eclectic bunch looking for a safe return. Old money, money routed from questionable regimes such as that we saw in Eygpt, pension fund managers, etc.

Alas, you'll never get your question answered dear chap

 

[dongonzalos]

I think and I maybe wrong if someone puts in enough that they own more than 10 percent. FA rules say they have to be identified.

There has not been enough money for the last 2 years. Staff are now receiving redundancy warning letters. Yet someone or some group can muster up nearly 30 million.

Which possibly shows it was a clear decision not to invest money previously as oppose to the pot has ran dry.

IMO Godiva, sorry I can't stick to facts SISU are hiding them

 

[wingy]

Where did cllr Mutton mention 20-30m. dongon. Check out the Huntsman group this is the rumour i heard in the latter part of the season.Joy has a business connection into the group .Heard the club was being backed this season by an individual associated with this group and that they said not a penny more at the same the debenture was taken out.Could be bullshit of course but the Arvo connection suggests a seperate funding set up from the sisu funds

 

[dongonzalos]

15 million existing mortgage. 10 million to the charity.

Then you have the football club and regeneration of the site.

It was mentioned in the show us your money article CET. 19th may.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It is so frustrating that we don't know who bank rolls sisu.

Either they are very substantialy well off. Cllr mutton was talking figures between 20 to 30 million to do the deal they want and that is not in installments.

If this is true do u think 1 million of that would have kept us up last season.

The only thing I can think is the money is from a seperate source.

If it is, will that source have to reveal themselves. Surely they will have more than a 10 percent share of the club. Or will they invest only in half of the stadium. Stating that they have not invested in the club avoiding the fa rules.

This clandestine approach really gets my goat.


I think if we knew the truth about the finance behind these investors we would go mad.

That is an opinion by the way godiva.

Fisher's recent quotes say that the club's deficits are funded through ARVO (or ARVO Masterfund, to give it its full name); in other words, SISU is not meeting the club's losses-they are borrowing through ARVO. My reckoning's that investors into the original SISU funds which acquired control of the club are ceasing to commit funding, causing SISU to instead borrow through one of the other funds.

 

[shepardo01]

The club WERE going to be liquidated by SISU/ARVO....until they found out that all of the players registrations and contracts would go to The Football League....
This made them change their approach and forced them into discussions with the council Re the Ricoh. However, the Ricoh can survive without CCFC.
Things arent looking good with these discussions and SISU were going to do something described by my source as "despicable". Minutes from the last meeting have been seen and were decribed as "explosive" and I asked the question whether the team would be kicking off the season in August....there was a long pause...and the response was.."probably".....

 

[dongonzalos]

I heard the talks were going at a fast pace and it seems they do have the money.

This should have filled me with relief. Instead all I feel us suspicion.

 

[Godiva]

It is so frustrating that we don't know who bank rolls sisu.

Either they are very substantialy well off. Cllr mutton was talking figures between 20 to 30 million to do the deal they want and that is not in installments.

If this is true do u think 1 million of that would have kept us up last season.

The only thing I can think is the money is from a seperate source.

If it is, will that source have to reveal themselves. Surely they will have more than a 10 percent share of the club. Or will they invest only in half of the stadium. Stating that they have not invested in the club avoiding the fa rules.

This clandestine approach really gets my goat.


I think if we knew the truth about the finance behind these investors we would go mad.

That is an opinion by the way godiva.

Nobody is bank rolling sisu - they are a fund management firm and they have not invested their own money in the club - at least not to my knowledge.

It's easy to think 'hey, if they can find millions to buy a part of the stadium, why couldn't they find 2 pence to invest in the team and save us from relegation last season?
But it is two very different investment cases.

Putting more money into the club is throwing good money after bad. As long as the club continues to use more money than it earns, that investment case is a failed one. Very hard to find new gullible investors who wants to spend money on a bankrupt foortball club with no assets.

But buying a part of the stadium and gaining access to building opportunities in the neighborhood is a completely different investment case. It's new and fresh and filled with potential future profit.

So the trick sisu has to perform is to put together an investment large enough and with the promise of hefty future profits, that new investors won't be turned off by having to take on the failed club as a sideshow.

So in short - it is impossible to find more money for the club alone (unless more costs are cut - like the rent - and the club start to produce a (small) profit). At the same time it is much easier to find money to a stadium and area building project, even if that takes 100 times the money it would take to bankroll the club for a few more years.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I agree with what you are saying about two different investment cases Godiva. I also share in Dongonzalos's frustration in respect of the transparency of ownership by SISU investors.

Thing is though I reckon that SISU are going to struggle to find the money needed to invest in the manner required for ACL & the other developments. I would guess that they are going to need to (a) buy the shares from the charity £10m? (b) pay off the bank loan in ACL £12m to free up the potential for dividends etc (c) provide working capital for CCFC say £6m (d) provide development funds short term say £10m (e) have a plan to provide further investment funds for the site ??????. We are talking north of £30m for no return.

They will be looking to shave off those costs as much as possible, try to dodge any investment guarantees, minimise working capital to CCFC, structure it on a basis related to success in so many years etc ............ all of which will mean the offers they come up with will look attractive to SISU but the Charity, Council & ACL will not find them acceptable.

I am not sure that SISU have the ability to get this done at all

 

[Godiva]

OSB,
I am not sure the negotiation will proceed in a way where sisu is making an offer per say. I think it's more the other way around, where sisu is presented with a price tag and different 'solutions'.
The negotiation is probably (I am speculating here) more focused on how much more than the stadium part can be included - i.e. hotel development, infrastructure, outlets, other building developments. And mind you - the focus of attention is NOT the club, the remains a sideshow in all this, and is merely sisu's ticket to the negotiation table.

I would be amazed if the financial part related directly to the club hold a center part of the negotiations. I think it's more like: If everything else falls into place and the clubs investors and the council can commit to some specific 'area development' then sisu will make money available for all projects - including the survival of the club.

Back to the OP's point 'frustration at lack of transparency'.
How would you in the owners place be transparent about that?
The black and white are - either sisu gets in on the stadium and the area development as this is what it will take to attract new investors - or the club will be liquidated.
Maybe there's a 'gray' path also - but that require the rent is reduced to a fraction of the £1.2m/yr. That will not lead to new investments in the club and/or the team, but may make it possible to live another season.

How would you be transparent about that?

I think most involved on either side of the table know the score and have taken a pragmatic view to it all. Here is ONE problem with three possible outcome:
1) The rent is reduced, otherwise nothing else which means another year of frustration ahead.
2) No deal at all which leads to liquidation
3) The big all-inclusive deal including the stadium, hotel buildings, exhibition center and whatever your heart desires - all to the tune of the councils blessings. In that situation the club will benefit and receive the most investment.


Again - this is all speculation.

 

[valiant15]

I hope the council give sisu fuck all.

 

[bigbeatpete]

I remember watching a film some time ago, the name of which escapes me, but one of the lines in the film was "....there are two things in this world; Hype and Spin....." unfortunately we are dealing with masters of both of these elements.

So don't expect any transparency.

And yes valiant15 I agree, I hope the council give SISU nothing also. I also hope that the people who have been involved with or are still involved with SISU come to a very nasty end. And yes, that includes our friend Mr Deluded being involved with a very nasty tanning related incident.

 

[dongonzalos]

Liked your first post godiva. It was pretty much what i was saying. Trying to do a deal for the ground only. Hence why the funds are suddenly available.

Re the bankrolling, the money is not sisus so in my book that is bank rolling.

If it is the same investors who won't invest in the team. I would love to know.
If it is new investors as it is about the stadium not the team I would also love to know.

The way I see it SISU liquidate they have a hell of a lot more to lose. Or sorry sisu's bankrollers have 40 million to lose.

The council I hope understand they are actually in the driving seat. As you say the football club is an unfortunate side show at the moment for sisu.

However the council are saying. You cannot get what you want unless you invest in the team.

Now you put yourself in SISU's shoes like you have asked me to.

Invest in the team. Get half the stadium. Invest in the hotel etc.. Team Hopefully are successful. Promotion feel good factor. Be able to sell the whole package, worst case scenario get most if not all your money back, best scenario make a profit.

Let's say they are the same bankrollers who shut up shop. Then the above scenario if they do have the money must be very tempting. Alternatively liquidate then write off 40 million.

Whilst waiting to do the deal you apply pressure to the council in order to get the price down.

How do you apply pressure?

Don't pay rent
Put a liquidation debenture in place.
Don't submit the books
Release players
Have a transfer embargo
Write to staff with redundancey warnings.
Release staements about 500k a month loses
(even though this may acually only be the summer months)

So if we know the bankrollers are the same people that put in the original maney, that my friend is a critical bit of info to know. The council in this scenario would have the trump card.
SISU would never chose to liquidate and would always IMO chose to invest a bit of money in the team. That is if they are the boys with the cash?

If however it is someone different then, that needs a bit of lateral thinking.

 

[valiant15]

Godiva is a total sisu ring licker.

 

[dongonzalos]

Now now valiant.

 

[dongonzalos]

However if I was SISU. I would give them credit. If they had asked one if their more intelligent employees to monitor forum's such as this and get SISU's point across.
Do u think anyone is a double agent doing that. Only IMO not fact

I take we can now talk in opinions Godiva? As oppose to only been allowed to talk in hardcore facts. Which I assume you apprecaite is hard to do when people are not telling you the facts?

 

[Grendel]

Godiva is a total sisu ring licker.

Only one day to go valiant - getting your ticket for next season?

 

[valiant15]

Sisu can kiss my sweaty big balls,as can Godiva the sisu lover

 

[Grendel]

Sisu can kiss my sweaty big balls,as can Godiva the sisu lover

And with that delightful image I bid you goodnight.

 

[oldskyblue58]

OSB,
I am not sure the negotiation will proceed in a way where sisu is making an offer per say. I think it's more the other way around, where sisu is presented with a price tag and different 'solutions'.
The negotiation is probably (I am speculating here) more focused on how much more than the stadium part can be included - i.e. hotel development, infrastructure, outlets, other building developments. And mind you - the focus of attention is NOT the club, the remains a sideshow in all this, and is merely sisu's ticket to the negotiation table.

I would be amazed if the financial part related directly to the club hold a center part of the negotiations. I think it's more like: If everything else falls into place and the clubs investors and the council can commit to some specific 'area development' then sisu will make money available for all projects - including the survival of the club.

Yes I am sure the drive is to get hold of the stadium etc Godiva but right now CCFC is trying to be partner to the council by buying the Charity shares. IF they are using the option at all because information today from the Charity suggests the offer is not based on the option terms at all. If it is CCFC trying to partner the Council (would suggest it is important that it is the club not SISU from the Charity or Council point of view) then the viability of that partner and tenant is going to be important to any negotiations. Unless CCFC is viable then SISU wont get a sniff of that partnership or the property potential attached to it