If Sisu / Arvo get JR compensation ? (1 Viewer)

[sky blue john]

How will CCFC benefit from Sisu /Arvo getting compensation from the JR ?
I am just thinking ahead CCFC are not even listed on the JR. So the way I see it is that compensation would go directly to Sisu Arvo. Does this mean that CCFC will still be saddled with 50-70 million debt ???
I could maybe get on board if I thought that the CCFC debt to Arvo would be cleared !!

 

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[skybluetony176]

You're asking for too much information there John. Did you not know that you are supposed to follow sisu blindly into expensive court battles and stadium ownership without an inkling of what it actually means for the club. Still we could always keep our fingers crossed, that works. Hence all the times I've won the national lottery. Besides what's the chances of a Cayman Islands based hedge fund feathering their own nest and screw everyone else. It would be nieve to follow any other path.

 

[Godiva]

How will CCFC benefit from Sisu /Arvo getting compensation from the JR ?
I am just thinking ahead CCFC are not even listed on the JR. So the way I see it is that compensation would go directly to Sisu Arvo. Does this mean that CCFC will still be saddled with 50-70 million debt ???
I could maybe get on board if I thought that the CCFC debt to Arvo would be cleared !!

Why is that important now?
Isn't it more important what will happen to ACL if the loan is found unlawful and must be repaid?

 

[skybluetony176]

Why is that important now?
Isn't it more important what will happen to ACL if the loan is found unlawful and must be repaid?

Depends on what that means for the club. If it doesn't benefit the club in any way shape or form why is it important full stop.

You have no idea what sisu are going to do or not do for the club win or lose, for all you know a council win might be the best thing to happen to the club in a long time.

But hey, you've read the first days transcripts taken it all as fact and not read the counter, so what would I know.

 

[sky blue john]

Why is that important now?
Isn't it more important what will happen to ACL if the loan is found unlawful and must be repaid?

Its important because shouldn't the fans know exactly how CCFC will benefit from this potential windfall ?
Especially when Sisu are using the club as a front for the JR !!

 

[mighty quinn]

Wouldn't worry.. Think ccc will win easily anyway.

 

[Godiva]

Its important because shouldn't the fans know exactly how CCFC will benefit from this potential windfall ?
Especially when Sisu are using the club as a front for the JR !!

I have no clue if the judge will go further than to order the loan repaid. Any damages would likely be a subject for a seperate hearing. In that case I think it will never go further as the council will be forced into new negotiations with the club.

Still, the judge haven't ruled on the loan yet, so quite premature to start a debate on how sisu will spend money they may or may not be awarded.

 

[torchomatic]

<high-five>

Wouldn't worry.. Think ccc will win easily anyway.

 

[Hobo]

Another IF thread. Think I will wait and see what decisions the judge comes to before getting into needless debate.

 

[sky blue john]

I have no clue if the judge will go further than to order the loan repaid. Any damages would likely be a subject for a seperate hearing. In that case I think it will never go further as the council will be forced into new negotiations with the club.

Still, the judge haven't ruled on the loan yet, so quite premature to start a debate on how sisu will spend money they may or may not be awarded.

Hardly premature with yesterdays article in CET. And you for one are convinced it was an illegal loan.
So I for one would like to know if the money would be used to pay off or reduce existing debt !!!

 

[Grendel]

Hardly premature with yesterdays article in CET. And you for one are convinced it was an illegal loan.
So I for one would like to know if the money would be used to pay off or reduce existing debt !!!

If we can return to planet earth just for one minute I would suggest even if the council loan was deemed illegal its unlikely compensation will be awarded.

 

[Hobo]

Hardly premature with yesterdays article in CET. And you for one are convinced it was an illegal loan.
So I for one would like to know if the money would be used to pay off or reduce existing debt !!!

But all you will get on here is a load of speculation about it not a definitive answer. So a waste of time.

 

[sky blue john]

If we can return to planet earth just for one minute I would suggest even if the council loan was deemed illegal its unlikely compensation will be awarded.

Are Sisu just doing this for their love of CCFC and the Cov tax payer ?

 

[sky blue john]

Does anyone genuinely believe that if Acl are forced to pay back the loan it will end up with liquidation ?
Also that it will end up with Sisu with the lease and bringing in AEG to run the Ricoh ?
Which in turn will end up with the existing contracts in relation to services to the Ricoh being torn up and lost jobs ?

 

[Grendel]

Does anyone genuinely believe that if Acl are forced to pay back the loan it will end up with liquidation ?
Also that it will end up with Sisu with the lease and bringing in AEG to run the Ricoh ?
Which in turn will end up with the existing contracts in relation to services to the Ricoh being torn up and lost jobs ?

No but that would be the best outcome as things stand

 

[Godiva]

Does anyone genuinely believe that if Acl are forced to pay back the loan it will end up with liquidation ?
Also that it will end up with Sisu with the lease and bringing in AEG to run the Ricoh ?
Which in turn will end up with the existing contracts in relation to services to the Ricoh being torn up and lost jobs ?

1) - Yes, I think it is very likely.
2) - Depends on what will happen within the council, especially within the labour group. So no clue.
3) - As that depends on 2) I can't really make assumptions.

 

[dongonzalos]

The discretionary nature of the remedies means that even if a court finds a public body has acted wrongly, it does not have to grant any remedy. Examples of where discretion will be exercised against an applicant may include where the applicant’s own conduct has been unmeritorious or unreasonable, for example where the applicant has unreasonably delayed in applying for judicial review, where the applicant has not acted in good faith, where a remedy would impede an authority’s ability to deliver fair administration, or where the judge considers that an alternative remedy could have been pursued.

 

[dongonzalos]

The discretionary nature of the remedies means that even if a court finds a public body has acted wrongly, it does not have to grant any remedy. Examples of where discretion will be exercised against an applicant may include where the applicant’s own conduct has been unmeritorious or unreasonable, for example where the applicant has unreasonably delayed in applying for judicial review, where the applicant has not acted in good faith, where a remedy would impede an authority’s ability to deliver fair administration, or where the judge considers that an alternative remedy could have been pursued.

Sorry but I can't see past this, even the people who ardently agree with SISU's actions agree that they are as much to blame as the council.

No remedy = no forcing of the loan to be repaid or a second hearing for damages

 

[Godiva]

Sorry but I can't see past this, even the people who ardently agree with SISU's actions agree that they are as much to blame as the council.

No remedy = no forcing of the loan to be repaid or a second hearing for damages

I was agreeing with everything until the very last sentence.

In my understanding - ordering the repaying of the loan is not a remedy but an obligatory action if unlawful state aid is the ruling.
Then I agree again - damages would probably need a seperate hearing, but the judge may rule if he will allow such a hearing or not.

 

[Grendel]

I was agreeing with everything until the very last sentence.

In my understanding - ordering the repaying of the loan is not a remedy but an obligatory action if unlawful state aid is the ruling.
Then I agree again - damages would probably need a seperate hearing, but the judge may rule if he will allow such a hearing or not.

Yes I'm sure the rule regarding loan is repayment. I would guess the issue on compensation will be that sisu contributed to the issue by not paying rent and so compensation will not be considered.

 

[sky blue john]

I was agreeing with everything until the very last sentence.

In my understanding - ordering the repaying of the loan is not a remedy but an obligatory action if unlawful state aid is the ruling.
Then I agree again - damages would probably need a seperate hearing, but the judge may rule if he will allow such a hearing or not.

Anyway we know whatever is ruled that one side will appeal, meaning at least another season at sixfields. Another year of our lives lost and no negotiations on a return to Cov.

 

[Godiva]

Anyway we know whatever is ruled that one side will appeal, meaning at least another season at sixfields. Another year of our lives lost and no negotiations on a return to Cov.

We don't know that. We just assume so.
I can speculate that we will be back on January 1, 2015 - but I don't know that.
So it's not factual.
Yet.

 

[Godiva]

I would guess the issue on compensation will be that sisu contributed to the issue by not paying rent and so compensation will not be considered.

I am not convinced that the judge can come to that conclusion.
The rent strike was instrumental to the financial situation that lead to the decision to buy the loan, but ...

The rent strike was a commercial dispute - it was unlawful, and the penalty was administration, subsequently liquidation.
In addition, there were three alternatives to rescue ACL:
1) The roadmap which would have seen ACL debt free (how I hate that phrase) and with increased shareholder value.
2) A restructured bank loan, which would have meant the bank kept it's business, but with no increased shareholder value.
3) Liquidation of ACL, in which case the council did not have to use public money and could have sold a new lease for profit.

So even if pushed by the rent strike there were options available other than state aid. It is questionable if the judge can deny damages on that basis.

 

[dongonzalos]

I was agreeing with everything until the very last sentence.

In my understanding - ordering the repaying of the loan is not a remedy but an obligatory action if unlawful state aid is the ruling.
Then I agree again - damages would probably need a seperate hearing, but the judge may rule if he will allow such a hearing or not.

No the order is a remedy

The following remedies are available in proceedings for judicial review:

Quashing order
Prohibiting order
Mandatory order
Declaration
Injunction
Damages (only available is sought on non-Judicial Review grounds)

These are all remedies (including paying back the loan) if the judge feels SISU's actions caused the council to make the decision. He can rule the decision was wrong, but leave it in place.

 

[Warwickhunt]

No the order is a remedy

The following remedies are available in proceedings for judicial review:

Quashing order
Prohibiting order
Mandatory order
Declaration
Injunction
Damages (only available is sought on non-Judicial Review grounds)

These are all remedies (including paying back the loan) if the judge feels SISU's actions caused the council to make the decision. He can rule the decision was wrong, but leave it in place.

The Judge will have reside over the decision as to why the Council did not take the option to put ACL into Administration as this would have been a better option that would also have meant that they still did not have to deal with SISU and they would not have had to use taxpayers money.

 

[Godiva]

No the order is a remedy

The following remedies are available in proceedings for judicial review:

Quashing order
Prohibiting order
Mandatory order
Declaration
Injunction
Damages (only available is sought on non-Judicial Review grounds)

These are all remedies (including paying back the loan) if the judge feels SISU's actions caused the council to make the decision. He can rule the decision was wrong, but leave it in place.

Ok, thanks!
I stand corrected then.

 

[dongonzalos]

The Judge will have reside over the decision as to why the Council did not take the option to put ACL into Administration as this would have been a better option that would also have meant that they still did not have to deal with SISU and they would not have had to use taxpayers money.

That's not really the point though. We are discussing what he does if he finds in favour of SISU.
Once he finds in their favour he still may not order anything to change if he feels SISU's action were contributory to the decision the council made.

Ie without SISU doing what they did would the council have made the wrong action.

Separately to the above addressing your point is it now an agreed fact that if the council did not refinance the loan ACL would be liquidated?

 

[Godiva]

Separately to the above addressing your point is it now an agreed fact that if the council did not refinance the loan ACL would be liquidated?

They could have agreed to a restructuring of the YB loan.
Or followed the roadmap they agreed to.

Or indeed, let ACL go bust.

They had options!

 

[Jack Griffin]

They could have agreed to a restructuring of the YB loan.
Or followed the roadmap they agreed to.

Or indeed, let ACL go bust.

They had options!

Yes, and I think the CCC QC said that those options were considered, not simply discarded out of hand.

 

[Kingokings204]

If you read the transcripts ACL going bust was not an option.

 

[Godiva]

Yes, and I think the CCC QC said that those options were considered, not simply discarded out of hand.

And according to sisu QC the considerations were flawed and all information not given to the councillors.
He also uses the arguments to show 'irrationality'.

 

[Godiva]

If you read the transcripts ACL going bust was not an option.

According to the judge it was very much a commercial option! The actual quote is somewhere in the ACL valuation thread.

 

[dongonzalos]

They could have agreed to a restructuring of the YB loan.
Or followed the roadmap they agreed to.

Or indeed, let ACL go bust.

They had options!

However my question is would ACL have gone bust.

Or was the judge just agreeing that if that was correct it could have been a viable option.

 

[Kingokings204]

According to the judge it was very much a commercial option! The actual quote is somewhere in the ACL valuation thread.

Maybe for the judge (who wasn't majorly convinced) but it was not an option for ccc/Higgs who own ACL.

Why?

Because ACL have no major creditors and therefore will receive next to nothing back for their shares. Higgs paid 6m for ccfc share as we know but would receive nothing back is ACL went bust. It wasn't an option.

 

[sky blue john]

If the loan has to be repaid does this mean Acl will go into admin ?
I would have thought they will take out another loan with a bank. At the JR Sisu made a big thing of that the YB were prepared to restructure the old loan.
The credit crisis has also eased and I hardly think that a company made up of the Higgs and council, would have a bad credit rating ?
If they did get another loan though this may effect what could be offered to CCFC in terms of future rental agreements.