Paul Ince is he deluded or does he have a point? (3 Viewers)

[bigfatronssba]

No. The black candidate would be selected at the board's discretion, i.e. the man/men they feel are well-qualified.



The white candidate doesn't need to do that! They are not at risk of racial discrimination and are no less likely to get the interview because of a Rooney Rule.

Fucking hell.

The black guy will be automatically considered because of his colour, that is discrimination! Dress it up how you want, that is racism.

 

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[Colonel Mustard]

So colour blindness has come about from analysing the colour of peoples skin? Do you realise how contradictory that sounds?

No. Colour blindness is not coming about through 'the analysis of colour'(?), but by tearing down the racial slurs, stereotyping and barriers that existed - and continue to do so.

Also I've highlighted a key word there. Even you admit its discrimination.

You need to stop leaning so heavily on that word to justify thoughtless viewpoints. Discrimination is nuanced. There is 'unjust and prejudicial' discrimination, such as rejecting an individual on the basis of the religion or skin colour; and then there is, yes, positive discrimination, where a certain quota of fully-qualified individuals are hired in order to help bolster the colour-blindness cause (which you seem to care about).

 

[bigfatronssba]

No. Colour blindness is not coming about through 'the analysis of colour'(?), but by tearing down the racial slurs, stereotyping and barriers that existed - and continue to do so.



You need to stop leaning so heavily on that word to justify thoughtless viewpoints. Discrimination is nuanced. There is 'unjust and prejudicial' discrimination, such as rejecting an individual on the basis of the religion or skin colour; and then there is, yes, positive discrimination, where a certain quota of fully-qualified individuals are hired in order to help bolster the colour-blindness cause (which you seem to care about).

Colour blindness is about accepting we're all the same and its the person underneath that matters. Special treatment for certain members of our society because of a physical feature does not fit into that.

So as your a big fan of positive discrimination, would you be happy for Indian Restaurants to be forced to interview white candidates? Last time I went for a curry in Earlsdon it was all Asians working there. Must be a right little racist running that place.

Also white footballers are very under represented. 87% of the UK population is white, yet only 75% of footballers are white. Racism? Think we need some "positive" discrimination in football academies to sort them out.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

The black guy will be automatically considered because of his colour, that is discrimination! Dress it up how you want, that is racism.

It is bewildering how you can equate (a little) equal opportunity to racism, let alone suggest that white candidates would be somehow discriminated against. You shouldn't be so scared.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

So as your a big fan of positive discrimination, would you be happy for Indian Restaurants to be forced to interview white candidates? Last time I went for a curry in Earlsdon it was all Asians working there. Must be a right little racist running that place.

You cannot compare a restaurant in Earlsdon with the national game and be taken seriously. But I'll play along. I'd assume that is because most small businesses are family-run. And there is enough diversity in the restaurant industry as a whole that it is truly colour-blind. But should the, um, diversity of waiting staff ever become a major issue, then yes, I'll sign your petition demanding that white people be allowed to interview for the position of na'an maker.

Also white footballers are very under represented. 87% of the UK population is white, yet only 75% of footballers are white. Racism? Think we need some "positive" discrimination in football academies to sort them out.

Because white footballers have historically been the victims of prejudice?

 

[bigfatronssba]

You cannot compare a restaurant in Earlsdon with the national game and be taken seriously. But I'll play along. I'd assume that is because most small businesses are family-run. And there is enough diversity in the restaurant industry as a whole that it is truly colour-blind. But should the, um, diversity of waiting staff ever become a major issue, then yes, I'll sign your petition demanding that white people be allowed to interview for the position of na'an maker.



Because white footballers have historically been the victims of prejudice?

Surely there is enough diversity in the football industry as a whole that it is truly colour blind?

So because white footballers haven't historically been the victims of prejudice, its ok to be prejudice against them now?

Your whole argument seems to be based on that because there are lots of white people, its ok to be a little bit racist against them.

And I think I'm right to be a bit scared, racism by stealth is not something I want to see in this country.

 

[Evo1883]

By your own absurd statement you at least acknowledge the gross homophobia that exists in football.

My point is , how does the system suddenly become racist from player to management , it doesnt , its the simple fact that the best man gets the job , not enough black managers around in the english game and not enough doing there badges according to david james .
i think some people just love an old racism row , over nothing really , and paul inces statements are even more hilarious as he is an absolutely terrible manager himself

 

[NorthernWisdom]

My point is , how does the system suddenly become racist from player to management

The racial colonial stereotype of a black man through the centuries has been athletic, fit savage who's a bit thick. Many many examples through the ages and, indeed, in the present day - you just have to look at the way Dublin and Christie were characatured to suggest there's this illusion of black man as primitive savage sex crazed athlletic beast hasn't gone away....

It's not an unreasonable hypothesis to suggest this is why there's a bigger proportion of black men playing than managing... or indeed holding the 'higher' positions elsewhere in the country, as they're 'kept in their place' due to this archaic perception still being held in some quarters.

 

[Evo1883]

You cannot compare a restaurant in Earlsdon with the national game and be taken seriously. But I'll play along. I'd assume that is because most small businesses are family-run. And there is enough diversity in the restaurant industry as a whole that it is truly colour-blind. But should the, um, diversity of waiting staff ever become a major issue, then yes, I'll sign your petition demanding that white people be allowed to interview for the position of na'an maker.



Because white footballers have historically been the victims of prejudice?

No white plyers have not been primarily the victim of prejudice , however , its more about education and change. You are still making it sound that black managers should be appointed positions solely based off the fact that throughout history black people have been racially discriminated against , there are black people in very important positions throughout the uk .
what is it that will make people like yourselves feel better , a situation like south africa where we have black people dominant in everything as a method of apology for peoples actions before our generations were born

 

[Evo1883]

The racial colonial stereotype of a black man through the centuries has been athletic, fit savage who's a bit thick. Many many examples through the ages and, indeed, in the present day - you just have to look at the way Dublin and Christie were characatured to suggest there's this illusion of black man as primitive savage sex crazed athlletic beast hasn't gone away....

It's not an unreasonable hypothesis to suggest this is why there's a bigger proportion of black men playing than managing... or indeed holding the 'higher' positions elsewhere in the country, as they're 'kept in their place' due to this archaic perception still being held in some quarters.

these words are coming from your mouth , and i have never heard anybody use these expressions whilst reffering to black people

 

[NorthernWisdom]

these words are coming from your mouth , and i have never heard anybody use these expressions whilst reffering to black people

The portrayal is implicit rather than explicit.

It's also where certain portrayals (Linford Christie is a prime example) are considered so natural in society that nobody bats an eyelid.

That's what's needed to be broken.

 

[Evo1883]

This argument only holds value , if there are a considerable amount of black people going for positions , that do not get them , even if they are the most qualified

 

[Huckerby]

I think that we are very close to agreeing with each other. I accept some of your points, especially the one about black people perceiving racism and not trying as hard as a result (not individuals - as a whole, statistically). This is precisely why I call it implicit racism not explicit. Let's follow the route of 'not trying so hard' for a moment. If there were a Rooney Rule, then this could give them the confidence that they have a chance and hence break the vicious circle. Moreover, their perception has to come from somewhere. Can we imagine that they have just a 10% lower chance of landing a job (that doesn't seem unreasonable - there are plenty of publicised incidents of figures in the game making racist comments incl. our very own large Ron). That 10% might well result in two of a given person's mates not getting a job, so that person doesn't bother and the impact is that there are no black managers at all. Or even the fact that there are no serving black managers could create such a feeling of apathy or disenchantment.

Or let's look at this from another angle. Are we honestly saying that every single white manager is better and more skilled than every single black candidate? It beggars belief - cannot be so. Hence I conclude there is IMPLICIT racism inherent in the environment. Possibly no single director ever deliberately excludes - but the combination of all the factors brings the result that black people are misrepresented due to the colour of their skin. The Rooney Rule, a no blame, harmless & non-forcing rule, might just be the hammer needed to break the circle. Once it is broken I suspect the rule could be retired and everyone would think back and say "I cannot believe it when I think there were no black managers - how could that have been so?"

Would be interested discussing economics with you in the pub (metaphorically). I studied Maths but am very interested in Economics too - a fact that has caused me to have no natural political party to support: support a liberal (small l) caring social policy but a Conservative economic policy.

Sorry for the late reply. I agree with the bit highlighted in bold - for this reason it could indeed be warranted.

RE the last bit about economics/politics - I find I'm guilty of not relying too much on the economic rationale for things, and perhaps need to think more about the caring social policy.
For example, its annoys the shit out of me when people slate the conservatives because they have "increased the national debt since they've been in power" and that they've "cut public services".

People think money grows on trees. Labour buy votes with promises of welfare and no cuts in public services...it works....the economy gets fucked. I think that people should have to pass some sort of aptitude test before they vote!

 

[chiefdave]

This argument only holds value , if there are a considerable amount of black people going for positions , that do not get them , even if they are the most qualified

That's it. To make any claims you'd have to look at the pool of available qualified employees and analyse who is applying for each job and if anyone from a minority is turned down is there anything to suggest it is anything other than they are not the best person for the job.

If and when we need a new manager the last thing I'd be worried about is if he was black or not.

 

[The Lurker]

Just like to throw this one out there

Look at teams in the African nations. most managers for African teams are white and not african. Does that make those football associations racist?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

For example, its annoys the shit out of me when people slate the conservatives because they have "increased the national debt since they've been in power" and that they've "cut public services".

People think money grows on trees. Labour buy votes with promises of welfare and no cuts in public services...it works....the economy gets fucked. I think that people should have to pass some sort of aptitude test before they vote!

It sounds like you are as susceptible to a good political soundbite as the rest of the people!

 

[Huckerby]

It sounds like you are as susceptible to a good political soundbite as the rest of the people!

Nah, they're all full of shit really aren't they. They'll say whatever they can to get votes.

But it makes me laugh when people say they've increased the national debt since being in power (they inherited a what...£150bn a year defecit was it?). And people also expect the economy to be sorted, national debt to be wiped out, and us to maintain the same level of spending and public services. Oh and reduce taxes (for everyone except the "rich").

As I said, they're all full of shit, but people without even a basic understanding of how the economy is ran see things like the national debt has increased and go mental.

Realise I've gone completely off topic so I apologise

 

[Colonel Mustard]

As I said, they're all full of shit, but people without even a basic understanding of how the economy is ran see things like the national debt has increased and go mental.

Tbf, Osborne missed just about all of his targets while overseeing the slowest recovery for 300 years; that ain't going to do much for the economy's prospects, debt or otherwise. There are fewer people going mental than there should be.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Surely there is enough diversity in the football industry as a whole that it is truly colour blind?

The football industry is rather larger than the Blue Mango, and it has to live up to its stated goal of kicking racism out of football. There is an evident problem when black candidates are fifty times (one sacking will make it 100x) less likely to get a shot than a white candidate. Like, really really evident.

So because white footballers haven't historically been the victims of prejudice, its ok to be prejudice against them now?

They were not prejudiced against then and they are not being prejudiced against now. Attempting to equalise opportunity is not the same thing as prejudice. What don't you understand about that?

Your whole argument seems to be based on that because there are lots of white people, its ok to be a little bit racist against them.

Erm, no.

And I think I'm right to be a bit scared, racism by stealth is not something I want to see in this country.

This may be news to you, but it's something you are outright advocating.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Just like to throw this one out there

Look at teams in the African nations. most managers for African teams are white and not african. Does that make those football associations racist?

No. National teams, especially those of an underdog status, want to hire managers with experience of international football. Those managers are invariably white, so the choice is limited. So while the selection is not racist, the breadth of choice highlights the implicit racism across football.

 

[bigfatronssba]

The football industry is rather larger than the Blue Mango, and it has to live up to its stated goal of kicking racism out of football. There is an evident problem when black candidates are fifty times (one sacking will make it 100x) less likely to get a shot than a white candidate. Like, really really evident.



They were not prejudiced against then and they are not being prejudiced against now. Attempting to equalise opportunity is not the same thing as prejudice. What don't you understand about that?



Erm, no.



This may be news to you, but it's something you are outright advocating.

Well I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

From what I can see this is creating a situation where the law will state one person of particular colour will find it easier to get an interview than someone of another colour despite their abilities being the same.

That to me is racism, regardless of how it's dressed up.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

From what I can see this is creating a situation where the law will state one person of particular colour will find it easier to get an interview than someone of another colour despite their abilities being the same.

What is wrong with it being easier to gain an interview if the candidate is of equal merit?

That to me is racism, regardless of how it's dressed up.

We are talking about a rule that guarantees equal opportunity. It does not guarantee a job; it does not promote those out of their depth; it does not take away the decision-making powers of owners; it does not limit white candidates in any way.

It seems to me that you're the one 'dressing up' racism, whether you realise it or not. When racism was explicit, people could say 'We don't hire blacks'. When it went into the closet, people could say 'We have the freedom to choose our preferred candidate on merit.' The rhetoric is indisputable, which is why one must look at the numbers and must take action if they are skewed.