Well as much as we wouldn’t like to admit it, they’re probably right. Unless you don’t see any correlation between increased pay and increased professionalism?
Refereeing (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter steveo1987
- Start date
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I don't think one necessarily follows the other.
We see people in very prominent positions that throw the blame on others the second anything goes wrong. People in it for the pay and prestige, but when accountability rears its ugly head, suddenly they're not interested.
I've been in jobs where those on the lowest pay are far more conscientious about their job that the big bosses are. People who would go that extra mile to help a customer. People who came in early and left late to get things done without overtime. If those people had the same attitude as the bosses the company would've lost all its custom and it was those lower down that was keeping it going. Yet guess who thinks they deserve the big pay rises?
You’re mistaking ‘consistent vs inconsistent’ for ‘good vs shit’.
People harp on about refs needing to be consistent over everything, but that will just make for a less interesting game. I don’t expect to enjoy the results every week, but that’s part of the fun. Consistent refereeing isn’t the same as good refereeing.
Well I know I’ve certainly taken my well-paid jobs more seriously than my low-paid ones - do you think the salary had nothing to do with it?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
To be fair in the case of politicians - which is unique - better pay will clearly result in a better choice of candidates
robbiethemole
Well-Known Member
Are refs all professional now or do some still have real jobs?
Let me put it another way then. If a new position came up at your work, with the same responsibilities and title as your current role but double the salary, and your bosses told you and the rest of the staff that the position would be awarded to the best performer on the team, how would that affect yours and your colleagues’ subsequent performance at work? (If at all)
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Elite are pro
The whole point of performance-related pay is that better pay ultimately inspires better performance!
I thought this was a relatively uncontroversial point - you hear teachers making the same argument all the time, for example. If there was more money in refereeing then I have no doubt you’d attract better athletes etc to the job.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
They would compared to being on strike, otherwise no.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
No, performance related pay harms performance in any non-simple task. I don’t think I’ve ever met a teacher supportive of it.
Pay needs to be raised in public sector jobs because the talent pool isn’t big enough to fill the need. Not because the existing teachers would work harder if they were paid more FFS!
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Might as well start packing the food bank parcels for the SEN teachers now.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Id be fast tracking myself to a comprehensive in leafy Berkshire if I was a teacher asap
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
The same job for more money is not 100% true, it's the same job but with increased abuse and the resulting effects on your private life.
A PL ref is subject to greater abuse than a league 2 ref just by visibility and more people who care enough to react.
A PL ref is subject to greater abuse than a league 2 ref just by visibility and more people who care enough to react.
This is what I’m trying to say is the case for football referees!
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
No, it makes people concentrate very specifically on the small areas that the pay is linked to at the expense of other areas.
Been shown in organsiations it's created overall poor performance because different departments are measured on different metrics and one will do something that affects another badly because that's what they get measured by.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
It also reduces performance in complex tasks. People reduce collaboration and get fixated on obvious ideas. It works for simple “do X things in Y time” jobs like say warehousing. Though at the expense of safety and quality because as you say it can’t measure them.
SkyBlueSoul
Well-Known Member
Turkish football having a completely normal one as usual
Edit: Props to whoever got this action shot though, about as damning as it gets
Edit: Props to whoever got this action shot though, about as damning as it gets
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
You can see how unexpected it was as none of the officials even looks to get into a defensive modeTurkish football having a completely normal one as usual
Edit: Props to whoever got this action shot though, about as damning as it gets
This is the top flight in the country!!!
Grassroots have to be so aware
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Key part for me
In a statement on what it called the "inhumane and despicable attack", the TFF said: "The irresponsible statements of club presidents, managers, coaches and TV commentators targeting referees have paved the way for this vile attack today.
It’s been said a lot and thankfully actual violent physical assaults are not an every week occurrence but arteta dyche klopp wright carragher Barton Keane all have a bit of blame on their hands
Watched villa arsenal the other night and the pundit was very balanced about the ref and it was surprising just shows how far it’s moved on this season and it starts with key figures in the game behaving like spoilt toddlers
and yes I’m pointing back at me too
Having done the role for 4-5 years as a teenager it is the most lonely and isolating role there is which is why I watch as many of my lads games as I can
In a statement on what it called the "inhumane and despicable attack", the TFF said: "The irresponsible statements of club presidents, managers, coaches and TV commentators targeting referees have paved the way for this vile attack today.
It’s been said a lot and thankfully actual violent physical assaults are not an every week occurrence but arteta dyche klopp wright carragher Barton Keane all have a bit of blame on their hands
Watched villa arsenal the other night and the pundit was very balanced about the ref and it was surprising just shows how far it’s moved on this season and it starts with key figures in the game behaving like spoilt toddlers
and yes I’m pointing back at me too
Having done the role for 4-5 years as a teenager it is the most lonely and isolating role there is which is why I watch as many of my lads games as I can
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
About time some of it filtered more into refereeing then, if so much rides on their decision making.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I think the top level salaries and grassroots match fees are ok and don’t stop people from getting involved
It’s a hugely competitive field to attract young people into the profession to maximise the numbers at grassroots so the experts can rise to the top from an ever increasing pool rather than an ever decreasing pool
so what can investment provide and what is the problem?
The problem for me is more people give up than take up officiating annually, reduces the pool top officials come from leading to inconsistent performances
There’s probably something more here about why people give up? Some get bored, some only wanted to earn a bit of money outside of education / university, intimidation or abuse. Are there more?
Also is it true that our top refs are inconsistent evidentially?
Its absolutely true that media and top managers are putting greater emphasis on how decisions affect their professional lives
The second statement doesn’t make the first statement true
The only thing fa and those involved in football can do anything about is abuse in terms of officials staying in the game? That’s what I think, what do others?
If I’m correct in my assumptions money isn’t the issue it’s top level behaviour and how this is dealt with and how this filters down to lower levels of the game and probably ensuring that expectations are high and amy stepping out of them is dealt with consistently and clearly
Most managers at the top level have families, manage relationships and behave appropriately in all areas of their lives. When it comes to football some managers and players do not and behave like spoilt children.(haaland’s reaction to advantage)
At the top level (apart from in Turkey!!!) you’d never see physical assaults but we all know that there is an escalation process from mild disagreement through to beating the hell out of someone
I’m certain behaviour at the top level impacts the abuse grassroots ref receive.
I’m also certain that transactional analysis is real and actions and behaviours of refs draws or repels behaviour from those in the game
So use of sin bin, yc, rc, bans, communicating and explaining etc etc
As a dad of a 15-16 year old a majority of coaches and players from u12 up to adult football have been brilliant
What lets down grassroots football is a minority of those adults involved (parents and coaches) lose their mind when it comes to football.
So solution to the problem is nuanced and multi faceted
Better initial training for new refs
Mentors and sponsors for all u18 refs
Promotion pathways to encourage and raise expectations
Ongoing mandatory development not just for some but for all
Respect agenda meaning something in youth football
Parents acting like adults
Coaches acting like adults
Adults acting like adults
Transparency of decision making in private not public
Full strategy involving all parts of our game to identify problem/s, brainstorm solutions and take the game forward together.
I keep seeing football can’t happen without officials but officials don’t have a role without football so it cuts both ways. We don’t want kids and adults being assaulted and verbally intimidated but also we don’t want games ruined with crazy changes to the game without discussion or wrong decisions not being identified and reduced and learned from
Gosh I’m boring
