RIP Labour (2 Viewers)

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
OK Ian, I have a few moments now to reply properly. :)

I don't buy all this "believe what I'm told to believe" nonsense. There are certainly many who think like this but I'm not one of them - a) I'm a floating voter and choose my vote carefully every time b) I'm cynical of everything and think it through for myself. So, point accepted but not relevant in this case. And the question is: Is the Tory Party a centralist one?

We can all point at things that need improvement and you choose the NHS and young people. I'll address both of these in due course. However my main point is that we have to look at the whole in order to make broad categorisations like this. Is the Tory party trying to do good for the whole population? I think it is; you may not agree with their approach - that's your prerogative - but I think that they are trying:

- Large scale tax reforms to stop the middle/wealthy avoiding tax. Examples: Buy to Let tax changes; Dividend Tax reform.
- Addressing big business tax avoidance. For the first time a UK government is taking on the Googles and Amazons and forcing them into a position to pay UK tax. This isn't a new problem - Labour had plenty of opportunities to address this and did nothing.
- Corporation Tax reduction. Interesting one this... their philosophy is that by reducing corporation tax it will bring more companies and more taxable revenue to the UK. It will also bring more jobs which may typically be lower income. Again you may disagree with the method but their intention is clear.
- National Living Wage. Again interesting - it's about the best way to bring greater wealth across the population which is debatable but again the intention is clear. The Tories are trying to make work far more attractive than benefits. If they can get more people into work it reduces government expenditure and may actually lead to greater tax revenue - allowing further tax cuts and more investment.
- HS rail and greater investment in the North. This is a very long term game but a genuine attempt to even out the wealth across the country.


The choice between a more centralist Labour and Conservatives is now one of the better way to achieve equality of opportunity. Do we tax high and give money out or do we tax low, provide opportunities and coax people into doing what is better for themselves and their families?

Now to pick up your two points:

- The NHS. An emotive point and a problem re funding for a very long time - this is not an issue that is unique to this term or the last. I can see that they have increased funding; set up a new NICE sub-committee to try and get more effective drugs available; facing up to the unions to try and get a full 7 day service (and compromised to the satisfaction of negotiators only to be rejected at the vote). These are all in intent positive moves. In my opinion some party at some time needs the balls to fully address the inefficiencies in this organisation but the Tories are shying away from it as did Labour presently. But doubtless if they ever do the unions will again flounce about and people will use it as a stick to beat them with - but it is what needs to be done. I write from personal experience when my Mum has been ill and also from a close family member who works in the NHS.

- Young people. I think that the plight of young people is almost entirely the fault of Labour and the EU. 1) It has become almost mandatory for anyone with ambition to go to university and to gain debts of £50k for the privilege. It was Labour that expanded higher education and introduced loans. I don't think it's appropriate for people to have a degree in tourism; hotel management; media studies... it's the kind of training that should be covered by paid apprenticeships and the Tories are pushing this agenda. I'd also prefer a graduate tax if we must charge for education as it spreads the cost more fairly. More to come from the Tories on this I'm sure. 2) House prices are obscene and that's driven by supply and demand. Free movement has seen 350k net immigration pa - driving up demand at a pace that we cannot (and don't want to) meet with new builds.

However, compared to almost everywhere else in the world our young people still have it good - youth unemployment is way lower than almost everywhere else as is our economy. It's all very well stating that things could be better - that's always true. But when we look at how the UK has performed since 2010 it's far better than most and that puts it into perspective.

For me, one of the major differences between the far left and the centre is one of temperament. The left is always so bloody negative about everything: everything is crap; there is a psychological need to blame everything on the Tories and be negative. However I prefer to judge things as they really are: we can always improve but how are we doing against what is practically possible? Ignoring the hatred, which party is actually doing something to help?
The 7 day NHS idea is merely a sweetener for the public. You can't run a 7 day service on 5 days funding
 

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
The left is always so bloody negative about everything

I can't say I agree with this at all.

Personally I find it a very positive aim to want to lift people out of poverty, to want to help each other, and to want to, ultimately, give the people control over that which they make,
I don't think it's appropriate for people to have a degree in tourism; hotel management; media studies

Very harsh to pick certain degrees ahead of others. Why, after all, is media any 'worse' than English or history? Surely the point is you're being taught critical thinking? And on a wider level, what is wrong with education for education's sake? A cultural studies course, after all ;) would remind you that back in the day, humanities were valued far, far above sciences, and sciences were the degrees that were considered a waste of time.

Fashion, trends, make certain areas of education more valued than others across time. The study of English Literature derives from a time when populist writers such as Charles Dickens, that there Will Shakespeare, were writing for cash. Jobbing writers such as John Dryden are, surely, little different from a modern soap opera writer so, as media formats change, why can't degrees change without them becoming devalued?

That being said, I do agree with the wider point that a university education for a university education's sake is a waste of time. I've seen plenty go through the system who, frankly... shouldn't. They were pushed there because of a bizarre financing system that judges on filling up the numbers, and completion rates. It doesn't, alas, judge on what's best for the people involved. And yes, that was Labour that hastened the shift (although loans rather than grants were a Tory 'innovation', Labour just ramped it up... as did the Tories after that), but that to me is exactly why there needs to be a divide between the parties. There has been no check on such a policy because the main governmental parties have, broadly... agreed on certain core issues over recent years. There's a lot of bluster, of course, that they do things wrong, or don't agree, but certain philosophies have become the consensus and, as a consensus, this means there's been no check on something such as a university expansion.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
Its utter folly to load students with huge debts most of which will never be paid back.
Its storing up discontent and putting young people in thrall to the authorities.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26688018

There needs to be an overhaul of the system to take out the debt and finance education directly from taxes.
 

Terry Gibson's perm

Well-Known Member
I can't say I agree with this at all.

Personally I find it a very positive aim to want to lift people out of poverty, to want to help each other, and to want to, ultimately, give the people control over that which they make,


Very harsh to pick certain degrees ahead of others. Why, after all, is media any 'worse' than English or history? Surely the point is you're being taught critical thinking? And on a wider level, what is wrong with education for education's sake? A cultural studies course, after all ;) would remind you that back in the day, humanities were valued far, far above sciences, and sciences were the degrees that were considered a waste of time.

Fashion, trends, make certain areas of education more valued than others across time. The study of English Literature derives from a time when populist writers such as Charles Dickens, that there Will Shakespeare, were writing for cash. Jobbing writers such as John Dryden are, surely, little different from a modern soap opera writer so, as media formats change, why can't degrees change without them becoming devalued?

That being said, I do agree with the wider point that a university education for a university education's sake is a waste of time. I've seen plenty go through the system who, frankly... shouldn't. They were pushed there because of a bizarre financing system that judges on filling up the numbers, and completion rates. It doesn't, alas, judge on what's best for the people involved. And yes, that was Labour that hastened the shift (although loans rather than grants were a Tory 'innovation', Labour just ramped it up... as did the Tories after that), but that to me is exactly why there needs to be a divide between the parties. There has been no check on such a policy because the main governmental parties have, broadly... agreed on certain core issues over recent years. There's a lot of bluster, of course, that they do things wrong, or don't agree, but certain philosophies have become the consensus and, as a consensus, this means there's been no check on something such as a university expansion.


I don't mind anybody getting a degree in anything but when they start to work the degree should only count in applicable jobs, I also think the same in government how does the head of transport one day suddenly have the required skills to become the chancellor or head of the nhs the next day.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
I can't say I agree with this at all.

Personally I find it a very positive aim to want to lift people out of poverty, to want to help each other, and to want to, ultimately, give the people control over that which they make,

Only my opinion from social media and listening to Labour politicians; I have no quantifiable proof. I've become so sick of the negativity from left-leaning friends on FB that I quit it for 6 weeks. I've just gone back and unfollowed them (a nice compromise for me - no unfriending but not having the negatives on my screen. I'm also fed up with the Labour mantra "we need to fight the Tories" - I hear this from them all the time. What is the point in existing just to oppose what someone else thinks? I'd have far more time from them if they said what they will do in a positive way rather than just being against everything the Tories do.


Very harsh to pick certain degrees ahead of others. Why, after all, is media any 'worse' than English or history? Surely the point is you're being taught critical thinking?

Completely agree - it should be about critical thinking and giving people the broad skills in their subject to be able to implement when in work. Many of these new courses are just teaching practical skills (again from experience of family and friends - not the papers) - and they are going down to the 50th percentile of natural intelligence. My point is that it is wrong to saddle young people with debt for practical skills and for those that are never going to set the world alight with their natural ability.

IMO the greatest innovation for giving the masses opportunity was grammar schools. These opened up the best jobs to anyone with the ability to do them. I'm pleased to read that they may come back on the agenda. The unfortunate consequences were that secondary moderns became sink institutions. We should reintroduce but make the new secondary moderns excellent in their own way - or plough much more money into comprehensives. My opinion on this is that teachers are underpaid massively and so it's no longer an option for the most talented. But I confess a prejudice in this - I started as a teacher and left for commerce due to money - so I would think that.
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
I don't mind anybody getting a degree in anything but when they start to work the degree should only count in applicable jobs, I also think the same in government how does the head of transport one day suddenly have the required skills to become the chancellor or head of the nhs the next day.

Completely agree with this, if you look at the makeup of the cabinet in Canada they are all qualified for their position through experience. 'Politician' should not be a career choice. I'm sure I've read that our previous chancellor had no formal maths or economic qualifications and got the second most important job simply by being the closest ally of the leader, thats nuts. Gives an indication why he never met a spending target and amongst all this talk of balancing the books and redressing the economy, that some people genuinely believed were becoming successful, he actually borrowed more money than all labour governments combined, saw wages shrink in real terms and presided over a shameful transfer of wealth to the richest in our society.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
So 130000 members have won right to vote in Leadership election.

Sounds like the judge was Justice Higinbotham of JR fame...
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
So 130000 members have won right to vote in Leadership election.
What an absolute mess Labour have got themselves in to going against the wishes of the party members.

Wonder what happens if you were a member and then paid the extra £25 to get a vote, do you get that back now?
 

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
What an absolute mess Labour have got themselves in to going against the wishes of the party members.

Wonder what happens if you were a member and then paid the extra £25 to get a vote, do you get that back now?

Well I'm glad I didn't pay the extra ;)

Is a bit crazy though, they're shooting themselves in the foot time and time again. I wasn't necessarily a Corbyn voter but, the more they bungle an attempt to force him out, the more I think he's the best option!
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Well I'm glad I didn't pay the extra ;)

Is a bit crazy though, they're shooting themselves in the foot time and time again. I wasn't necessarily a Corbyn voter but, the more they bungle an attempt to force him out, the more I think he's the best option!

Smith's only policy seems to be 'pick me I'm not Jeremy'
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Smith's only policy seems to be 'pick me I'm not Jeremy'
His actual policies seem to be to copy everything Corbyn does. Was funny the other night when Corbyn said to him 'why did you resign then' after Smith was saying he agreed with Corbyn on most things.
 

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
His actual policies seem to be to copy everything Corbyn does. Was funny the other night when Corbyn said to him 'why did you resign then' after Smith was saying he agreed with Corbyn on most things.

tbf he's probably not far away in that he's trying to tap into the fact there's clearly an appetite for a left leaning leader, yet one who's somewhat more dynamic than Corbyn.

That being said... sure Corbyn would have stood aside if such a proposition had been put to him! Not convinced he's comfortable being leader, more he's the only one out there!
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
I doubt Smith is as left wing as he makes out. Its just a ploy to convince more people to vote for him.

I'm looking forward to the schism. Jezza is going to win and then there will be global reselection of MP's, with most incumbents being deselected.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...eadership-contest_uk_5772b097e4b0d257114a9487
When this happens the party will split in 2. The whole shower are incapable of running the country, god forbid!
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
The self destructive path continues as Sadiq Khan calls Corbyn a liability. Khan is as culpable as any for the death of the Labour party.

Meanwhile Smith thinks it is possible to talk to IS and Galloway may return to the Labour party.

Crazy baby. Though I do think Khan is playing a clever game, letting idiot Smith lose and waiting out to the forthcoming inevitable electoral disaster after which he will become Labour leader, the question is can he do it without splitting the party, I don't think so.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile Smith thinks it is possible to talk to IS and Galloway may return to the Labour party.
I found it quite incredible, even given the huge bias in the UK press, that after that debate the focus was on Corbyn not recognising a photo of Ant & Dec rather than Smith thinking we should talk with IS. Given the uproar they've tried to create about Corbyn being a 'terrorist sympathiser' you couldn't have a clearer show of bias.
 

Nick

Administrator
Just seen Corbyn has made a video saying he had to sit on the floor on a train, but he is on CCTV walking past empty seats and then sitting back down on one...
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
Just seen Corbyn has made a video saying he had to sit on the floor on a train, but he is on CCTV walking past empty seats and then sitting back down on one...

I've just seen that, to my mind it looks as though there are possibly 1 or maybe 2 seats in the picture that could have been empty and not enough for his team to sit together and work as they would do on a train and that is obviously the best image they have. The point stands about thousands of people paying ridiculous prices to travel by train and not getting seats. Also it's not like it isn;t in Richard Branson's interest to portray Corbyn negatively when the issue of private rail ownership comes up is it..
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
If it was empty then why did no one on the train (as in staff) direct them to an empty seat?
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
I've seen the other photo now. In one he's wearing a jacket and in the other no jacket but with a tie on. All seems a bit suspicious to me.

It shouldn't matter either way anyway. It's another example of personality before policy.
 

Earlsdon_Skyblue1

Well-Known Member
There is at least 5 or 6 seats visibly clear (in that one carriage alone) as being vacant.

It was a blatant publicity stunt to try and show the country Corbyn is 'just like the rest of us.' No one goes on the train with 5 mates and sits altogether anyway.

Frankly I don't know why anyone would vote for a man that wants an open border policy based on recent events around Europe anyway, yet people seem to try and defend him on everything. Smith isn't any better however...
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
If it was empty then why did no one on the train (as in staff) direct them to an empty seat?

I guess he may have been if he'd stayed there until the conductor arrived; however as soon as he finished the video he went and sat down. As for:

it's not like it isn;t in Richard Branson's interest to portray Corbyn negatively when the issue of private rail ownership comes up is it..

My understanding is that Corbyn was trying to make a political point about renationalising the trains. Virgin was defending itself; not attacking.

However I do agree that many trains are very expensive and you cannot get a seat - God knows I've stood often enough. However I cannot see how nationalising them would improve them.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Am I watching a different video to you lot as the one I've seen the empty seats clearly have reservation tickets on them.

Interestingly other passengers who were on the same train have been confirming Corbyn's version of events and saying there were not free seats until the later stations when passengers started getting off.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
Am I watching a different video to you lot as the one I've seen the empty seats clearly have reservation tickets on them.

Interestingly other passengers who were on the same train have been confirming Corbyn's version of events and saying there were not free seats until the later stations when passengers started getting off.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167700

I've been on many jam-packed trains. When there are empty reserved seats they are sat on; many of the reservations don't even start until later in the journey. I've even reserved seats in the past and not even been able to get to the seat to claim it. He's already admitted there were empty seats but claims that there were bags on them - which conveniently the camera cannot see. These pictures and his statements bear no resemblance to my experience of commuting.

I'm not arguing that the train service is good - I've commuted into London for more than 20 years & am very aware of cancellations; packed trains; late arrivals and no-shows. I'm pointing out that Corbyn is... let's say exaggerating... in order to make a political point. A point which he doesn't even back-up. Why would nationalisation make any difference? The trains need massive investment to allow double-deckers or similar to cater for the peak demand.
 

mrtrench

Well-Known Member
I just googled Keren, fully expecting to find that she was a Momentum member and part of his team. I was wrong and accept that he couldn't find a seat at the start of his journey.
 

Liquid Gold

Well-Known Member
It really does say something about the state of our media that the leader of the opposition sitting (or possibly not) on the floor of a train is a bigger story than the government considering rescinding the human rights act
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Why would nationalisation make any difference? The trains need massive investment to allow double-deckers or similar to cater for the peak demand.
You've answered your own question there. In real terms the amount of taxpayers money going into the railways since privatisation has doubled. The private operators (many of them publicly owned national operators from other countries) take money off the taxpayer then pay out huge dividends to shareholders while investing little in infrastructure.

The Ricoh station is a prime example. It was publicly paid for but the train company don't have the rolling stock to make use of it. That's in part down to the fact that it is now common to lease rather than buy trains. The operator is then paid a subsidy to run the service.

The killer blow in the argument is the East Coast mainline. That was taken into public ownership after National Express defaulted on their franchise agreement. During its time in public ownership (2009 - 2015) it returned £1bn in profit to the taxpayer. It also had the highest passenger satisfaction rate of 94%

Since being privatised again, this time to Virgin Trains that level has dropped and the taxpayer is one again subsidising the service.
 

NorthernWisdom

Well-Known Member
It really does say something about the state of our media that the leader of the opposition sitting (or possibly not) on the floor of a train is a bigger story than the government considering rescinding the human rights act

Could argue that the leader of the opposition has contributed to this himself however.

I dunno, they're all worth challenging, aren't they?
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
It really does say something about the state of our media that the leader of the opposition sitting (or possibly not) on the floor of a train is a bigger story than the government considering rescinding the human rights act
Said similar the other day. There was a Labour leadership debate, which was during the day so wouldn't have been watched by many. In that Owen Smith said our government should negotiate with IS. Meanwhile Jeremy Corbyn didn't recognise Ant & Dec when shown a picture of them. Guess which of those got the most media coverage.
 

Ian1779

Well-Known Member
Can you equally imagine the outrage if he had sat in someone else's reserved seat...
 

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