Wasps Figures.

Discussion in 'Wasps' started by wingy, Feb 27, 2017.

  1. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    Figures out today
    Can't do link
    Have put a post in the sticky thread but that may be easy to miss
    Any one fancy doing the link
    Then maybe a bit of analysis.
     
  2. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    Where did you get it from? I can find the link.

    Or we can wait for the Telegraph / Observer versions and try and find the middle ground :)
     
  3. Terry Gibson's perm

    Terry Gibson's perm Well-Known Member

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    I'm disappointed I thought they were going to be like Star Wars figures and I was going to buy Italia some:emoji_cry:
     
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  4. Terry Gibson's perm

    Terry Gibson's perm Well-Known Member

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    No need to wait

    Telegraph greatest figures ever from the worlds biggest club

    Observer terrible figures going bust need a Tim fisher type figure to save them.
     
  5. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    It's on a forum.
    Drunken Wasps. com
    Heard on the radio today they'd signed a couple of players so thought I'd check if they're downgrading to save dollar.
     
  6. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    That signed photo of Houchen's header is going straight in the bin now that I've finally got my mini James Haskell figurine. ;)
     
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  7. Nick

    Nick Administrator

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    Wingy gets a mention on there by the look of it!

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. wingy

    wingy Well-Known Member

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    From memory EBIDT figure Up I think.
    Loss of £1.2M
    Richardson put in £2.6M
    They're missing a Sponsor.
    Unaudited 6 month figures I believe.

    Edit ;-It's come off the Wasps website.
     
  9. Terry Gibson's perm

    Terry Gibson's perm Well-Known Member

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    What's a James Haskell never heard of him
     
  10. duffer

    duffer Well-Known Member

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    Big bloke, apparently quite funny, can play a bit but doesn't really understand the laws and has to keep asking the ref for help. :)
     
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  11. Terry Gibson's perm

    Terry Gibson's perm Well-Known Member

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    I will get some knowledge of this game I now know that a big bloke called Haskell plays and Bill Beaumont used to as I remember him from question of sport
     
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  12. Captain Dart

    Captain Dart Well-Known Member

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  13. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Think I need OSB's help as I must be missing something as from what I can see their borrowing is increasing, that can't be a good sign.
     
  14. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    The bond price is around its lowest for a year or so?
     
  15. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Had a brief look and comments as follows

    • Overall the Wasps group to be heading in the right direction. Turnover is up, costs are steady, they show a profit before interest charges
    • They are not cash flow positive by 1.2m and Richardson has reintroduced funds to cover the deficit
    • They have drawn down most of the bond money, having kept back enough to pay the first 4 interest amounts
    • They have had set backs, the development at Higgs centre has been delayed a few months and as yet they do not have a stadium sponsor to replace Ricoh which was expected
    • They have bought the lease at the Higgs centre in the period
    • Sports income has increased by 2.5m to 8.3m in the 6 months and the total wages costs increased by 400k
    • They are predicting better turnover in the second six months for Events & business income which fallen away a little. That said no big concerts in this period
    • They need to resolve the sponsorship issues
    • Total turnover £17m for 6 months of which I estimate CCFC would have contributed less than 400K
    • CCFC turnover in year to 31/05/2015 £4.7m and falling Wasps sports income £8.3m and rising
    • Next valuation of the lease April 2017
    • They need to increase profits to be able to pay interest and keep within the bond covenants. Given the second six months is usually stronger then I doubt there is any panic for them about that
    • the Bond price shows a small rise since they were published and remains at a small premium but I wouldn't get hung up on the bond trading at this stage it can be affected by other factors
    • the total asset value on the balance sheet has changed very little and it looks like the liabilities have moved around in type (ie less trade creditors, more in structured or owner loans)
    • I wouldn't look at things in isolation, this is a long term plan and there will be variances along the way
    • Overall I would think the Wasps Board view the figures as reasonable with room for improvement. Does it show them in financial trouble no
    Actually for once the summary in the CT of the Wasps financials was pretty decent
     
  16. Sick Boy

    Sick Boy Well-Known Member

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    It is a shame that the CT hasn't bothered to focus on the fact that CCC's decision to move the franchise into the city will inevitably have a severe long-term effect on our football club.
     
  17. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

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    CCFC downfall is nothing to do with Sisu and previous management then?

    The biggest cause of Wasps being here is Sisu.
    Regardless, these figures show that the Wasps gamble is paying off.
    We need to plan CCFC future around the fact that Wasps are staying.
     
  18. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    They're using an overdraft now as well osb I noticed
     
  19. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Certainly doesn't show Wasps about to go bust any minute but equally I don't think they'll be opening the champagne. Still a lot of work for them to do and I wouldn't say they're home and dry yet.

    They need to make improvements to keep within the terms of the bonds and then in the longer term have to perform sufficiently well that a new bond can be issued to pay back the current bond holders.

    If Richardson is having to put money in and overdrafts are being used that isn't the best sign. Of course not all debt is bad but they still need significant improvements when we keep being told how things are the best they have ever been.
    The biggest single problem facing CCFC and the reason we will be unattractive as a takeover target is that the stadium was sold to Wasps. Up to that point all the damage SISU had done was reversible. That's not the case now.
     
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  20. italiahorse

    italiahorse Well-Known Member

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    The damage Sisu has done is going to take some reversing.
     
  21. Sky Blue Pete

    Sky Blue Pete Well-Known Member

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    No doubt in my mind that they will be going bust in 3 weeks
     
  22. smouch1975

    smouch1975 Active Member

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    No problem.

    Timothy will be announcing our new stadium in three.......

    Sent from my SM-N915G using Tapatalk
     
  23. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Interesting commentary on the state of Rugby in this article

    EXCLUSIVE: Wage bills will push clubs to the brink | The Rugby Paper Only thing I would say is that there appears to be a heavy non player cost (coaches etc) in the Wasps figures

    If you look at the published figures for Wasps then the sports side of the set up (mainly Rugby) appears to have contributed at least around 4.2m and 4.3m losses for 2016 & 2015. That's turnover less sports side wage costs, match day expenses & rent. Very simplistic and basic calculation and not accurate but that's just from the basic info available.

    That would mean excluding exceptional items in 2015 that the rest of the business made around 2m profit & 100k loss in 2016 & 2015 respectively. Again not strictly accurate as that means non sports carries the full interest burden.

    In general terms what it appears to mean is that non sport is profitable where as the rugby side is the thing that drags the finances down

    In terms of wage costs for the group go
    IEC Experience (subsidiary of ACL) which manages the events, retail etc has no employees. All employees are provided/employed by Compass and a recharge made
    ACL have around 47 employees in 2016 up from 18 in 2015. Costs are 1.88m 2016 and 854k in 2015
    Wasps - the majority of wage cost is in the Sports side. I make it around 15.5m and 11.75m 2016 & 2015. I would think there would be an element of relocation costs included in these figures
    Total group wages 17.4m in 2016 and 12.6m in 2015

    Wasps as with all other rugby clubs need to get their wage costs under control.
     
  24. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that my team Northampton Saints have also cited the same issues. The outgoing CEO said that Rugby wages were spiralling towards football wages and that clubs just cant cope. Add to this trying to compete with French clubs who have unlimited resources, a few British teams will come unstuck. The Celtic teams have had to cut their cloth accordingly, whilst some English teams such as Wasps have thrown caution to the wind. Their fingers could well be burnt.

    Also interesting to see Wasps will not sign another marquee player to replace Kurtley Beale. I hear a rumour that finance is a big part of this decision.
     
  25. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    finance is probably correct but they have brought in Willie Le Roux, Cipriani etc so it is not like they have not signed "names"

    Might be they have understood the warnings on wages and reacted accordingly?

    You would think that once they get their Academy operating properly that there might be a change of tack towards home grown talent?

    I think the important buffer for Wasps would be the non rugby finance from the rest of the stadium. Not many teams have that sort of income surplus to bolster things. But continued over spend on wages is not an option for any team in any sport. Sooner or later there is a reckoning
     
  26. Moff

    Moff Well-Known Member

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    Yes they do still have Willie le Roux, but every Rugby Premiership side can have two marquee players, those outside the salary cap that they can pay whatever they wish. Wasps are Le Roux, and Beale, and they are not replacing Beale. That's tells me a story in itself but I also heard rumours that paying for another marquee player was proving too much.
    Acting accordingly or having the purse strings tightened forced on them?
     
  27. fernandopartridge

    fernandopartridge Well-Known Member

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    The thing is that they need to be competing at the top to drive the non rugby income. I don't think the conferences and exhibitions bring in the income that the big rugby events do.


    Sent from my D6603 using Tapatalk
     
  28. chiefdave

    chiefdave Well-Known Member

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    Given the small number of clubs in the top division and a seeming reluctance from some clubs further down to reach the top level due to financial implications you could easily have a scenario where Wasps end up in trouble not of their own making. Its still a league in its infancy, if clubs start going to the wall or decide to give up the chase due to escalating costs what happens?

    They could end up in a scaled back league generating less money still with a huge debt to repay.
     
  29. Grendel

    Grendel Well-Known Member

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    What's the turnover split between the rugby and non rugby side?
     
  30. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    Total Group turnover 30.9m (2016) and 21.4m (2015)
    Sports turnover 12.3m (2016) and 8.7m (2015)
    Other incomes 18.6m (2016) and 12.7m (2015)
     
  31. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    take your point fp however turnover pre Wasps for ACL was 12.1m in 2014 ....... 2015 was 12.7m (wasps came in around half way through financial year so didn't really drive much in the year when you consider the lead times to putting events on etc). So there was a significant non sport base pre Wasps and no or minimum input from any other sports. Also the costs involved are mainly in the rugby side of the operation particularly wages
     
  32. oldskyblue58

    oldskyblue58 CCFC Finance Director

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    that is certainly a risk, one recognised in the risk analysis in the financials I think
     

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