Why won't sisu sell? (1 Viewer)

[Voice_of_Reason]

Can't help but wonder why sisu are not prepared to sell. It would appear they have little or no hope of recovering their investments /losses. So what is the reason? Surely there is one? What advantage to sisu is ccfc? I am puzzled. Is there a hidden reason? A tax loss advantage to sisu? What might be revealed in the event of a sale? Is ccfc being used in some sisu accounting way? All the above are questions I would love the answers to. I suppose we'll never know!

 

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[hill83]

Court cases.

 

[tom88]

Court cases.

Wow.....You should go into comedy.

I agree with the OP and would like these questions answered.

 

[hill83]

Wow.....You should go into comedy.

I agree with the OP and would like these questions answered.

It wasn't a joke for a start. My jokes are funny.
I believe they won't sell because they are still balls deep in court cases. As soon as these are finished either way they'll (hopefully) piss off.

 

[ajsccfc]

Don't think it was a joke. Court cases is pretty much the main reason, they still feel like they've got some juice to squeeze out of the fruit before chucking it in the bin.

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

The litigation process has not concluded & SISU must believe there is a chance of success. Therefore, holding onto CCFC makes business sense if the clubs ongoing running costs are not too high.

 

[chiefdave]

I'm certain they would sell if someone offered them what they feel is the right amount.

The court cases, as they are JRs, can continue without ownership of the club and any sale could include clauses regarding what happens in the event that they actually win a case for a change and go on to successfully gain compensation.

 

[hill83]

I'm certain they would sell if someone offered them what they feel is the right amount.

The court cases, as they are JRs, can continue without ownership of the club and any sale could include clauses regarding what happens in the event that they actually win a case for a change and go on to successfully gain compensation.

If that's the case then I've got no idea why they are sticking around.
Maybe they are selling the 'possible' windfall of promotion to the premier league within 2 years to clueless investors who have no idea whatsoever about football.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

I'm certain they would sell if someone offered them what they feel is the right amount.

The court cases, as they are JRs, can continue without ownership of the club and any sale could include clauses regarding what happens in the event that they actually win a case for a change and go on to successfully gain compensation.

That may be legally correct but I'm sure whilst still the current owners they believe that they have a better chance of winning. Its all about the court cases nobody will pay them enough to cover their losses, I believe they feel that they can gain more through the courts.

Talk of new stadium developments are hot air that pacifies some of the fans, they have no intention of investing in anything in the medium to long term

 

[stupot07]

1) court cases
2) they haven't lost any money on paper and won't in real terms until they sell.

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[Colin Steins Smile]

1) court cases
2) they haven't lost any money on paper and won't in real terms until they sell.

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Excellent point regarding the realisation of any losses to SISU's investors. It makes me wonder if their investors have detailed information on their exposure in their investment portfolio, as CCFC is likely to be bundled in with a number of other investments. Are SISU banking on really positive returns in other areas to cover losses in CCFC?

 

[Gosford Green]

It can only be the court cases. JS seems to see that there is serious money in the UK legal system and is prepared to see the end of Coventry City in the process.

 

[shmmeee]

Who wants to buy us?

You say the court cases can carry on, but if the aim is still to get the Ricoh reunite it with the club and sell the package, how can they if you've sold the club?

I think it's mostly stubbornness. People in finance tend to be big babies who don't like losing and spit their dummy when beaten. We've seen that repeatedly. There's no business sense to the vast majority of the clubs actions, things like the SCG minutes and Fishers previous paranoid outbursts show its not a particularly stable mind running the club.

Why does the bloke down my road stare at cats and carry a plastic bag everywhere? Only he knows.

 

[ceetee]

Who wants to buy us?

You say the court cases can carry on, but if the aim is still to get the Ricoh reunite it with the club and sell the package, how can they if you've sold the club?

I think it's mostly stubbornness. People in finance tend to be big babies who don't like losing and spit their dummy when beaten. We've seen that repeatedly. There's no business sense to the vast majority of the clubs actions, things like the SCG minutes and Fishers previous paranoid outbursts show its not a particularly stable mind running the club.

Why does the bloke down my road stare at cats and carry a plastic bag everywhere? Only he knows.

I agree with you.

It seems to me that JS will just not admit defeat until all of the cards have been played.

And to echo an earlier post nothing is actually lost until the business is sold.

 

[Bumberclart]

1) They think they have a chance of winning the court case.
or
2) They will wait until they have bagged the cash they get for Ryton, to minimise their losses then flog whats left.
or
3) both of the above.

I actually worry if they do win the court case, because that will just be the start of the appeals process against that decision. If they lose, thats it, nowhere else to turn.

 

[Gosford Green]

I actually worry if they do win the court case, because that will just be the start of the appeals process against that decision. If they lose, thats it, nowhere else to turn.[/QUOTE]

They have lost, one last straw to clutch. Which given the verdicts so far I can not see them getting anywhere.

 

[skybluebeduff]

Wow.....You should go into comedy.

I agree with the OP and would like these questions answered.

It's the truth, they're here for nothing else.

 

[Sutty]

The question is what is the club worth to SISU (or their investors). From what I can tell the club is in a lot of debt (10's of millions) to SISU, so they can claim on their balance sheet they have an "asset" worth £40m (or whatever the debt to them is). Common sense would tell you that the club isn't worth that amount of money, so to "prove" that it is to their auditors they'll want the club to be paying back a chunk every year (a million or two perhaps).

So to speculate, I reckon their aim is to reduce the club's costs significantly, and make sure that it's able to repay a chunk of the debt every year, probably by selling whatever assets come along (Wilson, Maddison, Ryton training ground, etc). When the debt is payed off (or close to paid off) they'll sell up.

This is a pretty gloomy assessment as it means we're heading for a 15+ year exercise in SISU drawing blood from a stone. The only positive I can see is it means it's in their interests to at least have the club in a position where they can take big enough repayments on the debt to prove it's actually worth what they say it's worth. So they can't completely neglect the on-pitch side (though they won't be busting a gut to get us promoted).

 

[skybluebeduff]

Those loans have a % of interest on them that goes up every year aswell I think. Need a link, just can't remember where I seen it.

 

[Captain Dart]

The court cases is the only thing left which may reward SISU.

It is my gut feeling that external interests are financing (or helping finance) the cases and if SISU win then it will open the flood gates on a lot of similar claims in the UK and other European countries and SISU will take a cut of damages on other future cases that would be brought. It can't just be this little local issue can it because any damages can't be as massive as the 'tens of millions' that have been mentioned. Not withstanding that scenario it can't be anything other than a high stakes punt.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

I've been told they will do the deal immediately if they're treated to a day out at blackpool pleasure beach.......

Then Canley Gilbert can finally write a half decent headline....

"Sisu sell shares on the sea shore"

 

[st john]

Excellent point regarding the realisation of any losses to SISU's investors. It makes me wonder if their investors have detailed information on their exposure in their investment portfolio, as CCFC is likely to be bundled in with a number of other investments. Are SISU banking on really positive returns in other areas to cover losses in CCFC?

Yes I have thought for a long time they are waiting for a good year re: other bundled investments so they can offload CCFC without too much pain. The financial world has been generally very depressed since 2008 up until now.

 

[skybluebeduff]

The question is what is the club worth to SISU (or their investors). From what I can tell the club is in a lot of debt (10's of millions) to SISU, so they can claim on their balance sheet they have an "asset" worth £40m (or whatever the debt to them is). Common sense would tell you that the club isn't worth that amount of money, so to "prove" that it is to their auditors they'll want the club to be paying back a chunk every year (a million or two perhaps).

So to speculate, I reckon their aim is to reduce the club's costs significantly, and make sure that it's able to repay a chunk of the debt every year, probably by selling whatever assets come along (Wilson, Maddison, Ryton training ground, etc). When the debt is payed off (or close to paid off) they'll sell up.

This is a pretty gloomy assessment as it means we're heading for a 15+ year exercise in SISU drawing blood from a stone. The only positive I can see is it means it's in their interests to at least have the club in a position where they can take big enough repayments on the debt to prove it's actually worth what they say it's worth. So they can't completely neglect the on-pitch side (though they won't be busting a gut to get us promoted).

Accounts for Otium Entertainment, and the club’s main parent company Sky Blues Sport and Leisure, have been filed with Companies House and show the owners agreed to convert £60,898,116 of Otium’s loan debt to Sisu into shares.

That means those loans no longer exist and the only way the owners would see a return on that investment is by selling those shares - which would seem unlikely at anywhere near that figure unless the club returns to the top flight.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-owners-sisu-wipe-8777372

 

[Warwickhunt]

there a £60 million hole in their accounts that keeps getting washed around and i think that whilst they still have CCFC its not written off but as soon as they sell then they have to do something about it, Not a Finance guy so only summizing OSB would know

 

[skybluebeduff]

there a £60 million hole in their accounts that keeps getting washed around and i think that whilst they still have CCFC its not written off but as soon as they sell then they have to do something about it, Not a Finance guy so only summizing OSB would know

My post above says that the £60mill of debt was converted into shares, the debt does not exist.

 

[rupert_bear]

I think it's down to the investors, don't know how many there are but they are the real owners so if they won't sell I suspect that's it. We know that Brody is one and I wouldn't be surprised if Fisher is one and there will be some faceless foriegners I guess.

 

[Bumberclart]

Lets not forget, SISU did not come here to invest in a football club. As Steve Gibson once said 'the quickest way to become a millionaire, is to be a billionaire and buy a football club'.
They saw another opportunity (stadium/land/development etc) and bought the club as means of realising that opportunity.
They now have one last stab at the court case, and then their goose is well and truly cooked.
Unless there is some sort of beneficial tax loophole that we don't know about, I predict the club will be flogged off if they lose. Probably after they have sold Ryton and when the time is right for accountancy purposes.

 

[skybluebeduff]

Igwe could be another, he is the co-founder of Otium.

 

[ccfcway]

if they do win a court case and claim damages, cant they claim we had a championship club with the revenues that brings and we are now having to cut cloth accordingly and as a result are in league one

 

[chinamans view]

of course it is to do with offsetting tax on investments, we are a important part of Sisu we have saved them millions. That money(tax saving) goes abroad to there tax free coffers. IMO

 

[Nick]

of course it is to do with offsetting tax on investments, we are a important part of Sisu we have saved them millions. That money(tax saving) goes abroad to there tax free coffers. IMO

Have you got more info on how that's working?

 

[6 Generations]

I think it's down to the investors, don't know how many there are but they are the real owners so if they won't sell I suspect that's it. We know that Brody is one and I wouldn't be surprised if Fisher is one and there will be some faceless foriegners I guess.

So, as far as we know, regardless of the various token figure heads that have been presented before us and have proceeded badly run our football club,
Nobody knows who actually owns us.

The test is known as 'The Fit and Proper Persons Test'.

Is there not a legal argument that our largely anonymous custodians, by their very anonymity, could not ever have passed 'The Fit and Proper Persons Test'?

This alone renders them unfit for purpose, doesn't it?

Or am I missing something?

 

[SkyBlueZack]

So, as far as we know, regardless of the various token figure heads that have been presented before us and have proceeded badly run our football club,
Nobody knows who actually owns us.

The test is known as 'The Fit and Proper Persons Test'.

Is there not a legal argument that our largely anonymous custodians, by their very anonymity, could not ever have passed 'The Fit and Proper Persons Test'?

This alone renders them unfit for purpose, doesn't it?

Or am I missing something?

Think Greg Clarke clarified it quite well. They pass a test which is not about their aptitude at running a football club, it's more along the lines of are they criminals? Fraudsters?

It's clear as day if the test was about being good at running a club, a lot of owners throughout the leagues would be gone.

 

[SkyBlueZack]

Lets not forget, SISU did not come here to invest in a football club. As Steve Gibson once said 'the quickest way to become a millionaire, is to be a billionaire and buy a football club'.
They saw another opportunity (stadium/land/development etc) and bought the club as means of realising that opportunity.
They now have one last stab at the court case, and then their goose is well and truly cooked.
Unless there is some sort of beneficial tax loophole that we don't know about, I predict the club will be flogged off if they lose. Probably after they have sold Ryton and when the time is right for accountancy purposes.

So they bought CCFC because of the Ricoh? Yet upon takover showed no interest. Wasn't until they had invested a bit and realised PL was all but a fantasy, that they switched their attentions to the Ricoh. If their intention was the Ricoh from the start, why was there no rent strike, negotiations or attempt to distress ACL?

 

[rd45]

So they bought CCFC because of the Ricoh? Yet upon takover showed no interest. Wasn't until they had invested a bit and realised PL was all but a fantasy, that they switched their attentions to the Ricoh. If their intention was the Ricoh from the start, why was there no rent strike, negotiations or attempt to distress ACL?

Seems like they had to change plans when they failed at option 1 ( back to the prem then flip the club to the highest bidder )

So option 2 was to play hardball & squeeze a long lease on the Ricoh out of CCC/ACL. That failed too.

Option 3 is a series of JRs. Still ongoing but doesn't look that great for them.

Who the hell knows what option 4 is? It's not like any of us saw 2 or 3 coming, so it's hard to guess. But it may or may not involve selling the club to someone who cares.