Back to being the biggest club in Coventry? (15 Viewers)

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
So now your evidence is a "what if"? Earlier on your evidence was figures from the JR. There is nothing at all to suggest they expected it for £0, which is free.

Failing argument? You are the one who stated 2 incorrect facts.

You resorted to a SISU Payroll line, when you are working in business with Wasps to have an official car park for Rugby games.....

Of course if they could get it for free they would. We will never know as word of the Wasps deal forced them to bring us back.
You have yet to explain the interest payments so I stand by my statement.
Yes. it's terrible that local businesses are picking up after Wasps came in and don't mention the staff being taken back on after the Sixfields debarcle !!
 

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Nick

Administrator
Of course if they could get it for free they would. We will never know as word of the Wasps deal forced them to bring us back.
You have they to explain the interest payments so I stand by my statement.
Yes. it's terrible that local businesses are picking up after Wasps came in and don't mention the staff being taken back on after the Sixfields debarcle !!

So it has now moved from SISU expected it for free to "If they could get it for free they would".

You were the one throwing the SISU payroll about, being a hypocrite for a change. Nothing new there.

Still, if you keep spouting your shite enough it will stick I guess.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
If they bought them thinking that the value of the Ricoh was 48.5 million they were misled. Especially if they then saw the CET article which backed that thought up.

So just to be clear, you're saying that the wasps bond prospectus was deliberately misleading?
 

Nick

Administrator
So just to be clear, you're saying that the wasps bond prospectus was deliberately misleading?

Misleading yes, deliberately I don't know? The fact they say the same in the Telegraph "the club said" then somebody is misleading along the line. Is it Wasps misleading?
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Misleading yes, deliberately I don't know? The fact they say the same in the Telegraph "the club said" then somebody is misleading along the line. Is it Wasps misleading?

So you're suggesting that the oversubscribed prospectus mislead everyone in stocks,shares and bonds market and not one person who is involved in this industry on a daily basis worked this out but the administrator of a football forum did?

Sounds like you're talents are waisted Nick. Either that or you're talking complete bollocks.
 

Nick

Administrator
So you're suggesting that the oversubscribed prospectus mislead everyone in stocks,shares and bonds market and not one person who is involved in this industry on a daily basis worked this out but the administrator of a football forum did?

Sounds like you're talents are waisted Nick. Either that or you're talking complete bollocks.

I would agree that if people were professionals in the stock market they would probably understand it better, it doesn't mean it can't be misleading to some though does it? Is everybody who invested from the stocks and shares industry?

The fact it is also in the telegraph saying the club said, with exactly the same figure with words like "The club said" clearly show that it is intended to make people think that is what it is worth.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
I would agree that if people were professionals in the stock market they would probably understand it better, it doesn't mean it can't be misleading to some though does it? Is everybody who invested from the stocks and shares industry?

The fact it is also in the telegraph saying the club said, with exactly the same figure with words like "The club said" clearly show that it is intended to make people think that is what it is worth.

You got your tinfoil hat on again?
 

Nick

Administrator
You got your tinfoil hat on again?

No, I have just read it and can see how it was meant to come across and the impression it is meant to give.

Interesting how you know the thoughts of every person in the stocks industry though. Must be a mind reader with Italia. Interesting how you are so keen for him not to be proven wrong with his shite.
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
If they bought them thinking that the value of the Ricoh was 48.5 million they were misled. Especially if they then saw the CET article which backed that thought up.

I shouldn't think a 'serious' investor would take that value as gospel, the main thing for them is they get their interest payments and the value of the bonds is secured against an asset that covers repayment. The payout is 6.5% pa which is v. good in the prevailing market. Even if the asset (the lease & associated commercial operations) was only valued at £25M (i.e. £10M less than the bond issue of £35M) at term the punters wouldn't lose, they would just be disappointed by a weaker than expected return.

I suspect in 2022 when the bonds mature Wasps will issue another bond to cover the payback & then try & scale back the interest they pay.

That's not making an argument for anyone, just my thoughts on the situation.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
No, I have just read it and can see how it was meant to come across and the impression it is meant to give.

Interesting how you know the thoughts of every person in the stocks industry though. Must be a mind reader with Italia. Interesting how you are so keen for him not to be proven wrong with his shite.

So if they understood the prospectus they weren't mislead but if they didn't understand the prospectus they were mislead?
 

Nick

Administrator
I shouldn't think a 'serious' investor would take that value as gospel, the main thing for them is they get their interest payments and the value of the bonds is secured against an asset that covers repayment. The payout is 6.5% pa which is v. good in the prevailing market. Even if the asset (the lease & associated commercial operations) was only valued at £25M (i.e. £10M less than the bond issue of £35M) at term the punters wouldn't lose, they would just be disappointed by a weaker than expected return.

I suspect in 2022 when the bonds mature Wasps will issue another bond to cover the payback & then try & scale back the interest they pay.

That's not making an argument for anyone, just my thoughts on the situation.

No I agree, my point was just that the intention was to put that across as the value of the Ricoh. Some may have thought it was, some may have.
 

Nick

Administrator
So if they understood the prospectus they weren't mislead but if they didn't understand the prospectus they were mislead?

It depends on what they understood and what they didn't understand. If they came to the conclusion the Ricoh was worth £48.5 then yes, they were mislead weren't they if it isn't the value? The same as readers of the CET would have been.

The other option is that they do actually value it at £48.5 million, and they got it for even more free according to Italia.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
It depends on what they understood and what they didn't understand. If they came to the conclusion the Ricoh was worth £48.5 then yes, they were mislead weren't they if it isn't the value? The same as readers of the CET would have been.

The other option is that they do actually value it at £48.5 million, and they got it for even more free according to Italia.

Nick. You even say it yourself "It depends on what they understood and what they didn't understand". The perfect basis for a misunderstanding. Not understanding the details is misunderstanding not being mislead. Nobody was duped they simply just didn't understand.
 
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chiefdave

Well-Known Member
We've been here before. There's 2 options. Either the value in the prospectus is dodgy or serious questions need to be asked about the sale price.

The 'its worth more now because Wasps are here' is rubbish. Wasps average crowd is lower than ours and they play far less games a year yet someone them being here increases the value of the Ricoh from under £6m to over £40m - no chance.
 

Nick

Administrator
We've been here before. There's 2 options. Either the value in the prospectus is dodgy or serious questions need to be asked about the sale price.

The 'its worth more now because Wasps are here' is rubbish. Wasps average crowd is lower than ours and they play far less games a year yet someone them being here increases the value of the Ricoh from under £6m to over £40m - no chance.

I think it was because of Italia's "SISU wanted it for free theory".

If you get something worth £20M (£14M of items + £6M for ACL) and you pay £8M (£2M + £6M) in theory you have actually made £12M profit and it has cost you less than nothing on your books..

He won't admit Wasps did get it for free if that's his theory though. It only applies to SISU.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
I think it was because of Italia's "SISU wanted it for free theory".

He won't admit Wasps did get it for free if that's his theory though. It only applies to SISU.

Your applying the Wasps theory so you'll need to explain that one.

You have not answered the question reference what would be the situation if the team were out in Northampton and Wasps were not here.
I.e. The original Sisu plan. Remember, the one you knowingly supported in it's first year ?
 

Nick

Administrator
Your applying the Wasps theory so you'll need to explain that one.

You have not answered the question reference what would be the situation if the team were out in Northampton and Wasps were not here.
I.e. The original Sisu plan. Remember, the one you knowingly supported in it's first year ?

No, I am applying your logic to Wasps. It isn't complicated is it?

There is no still no proof that SISU expected the Ricoh for free, as in £0. You can go on about what if's all day and that I went to Sixfields or not.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
The accounts show £2M+ plus going out in interest payments so assume they are until we get the details.

No it doesn't. It's interest accrued not payments. OSB clearly explains this in his analysis of the accounts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
No it doesn't. It's interest accrued not payments. OSB clearly explains this in his analysis of the accounts.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)

It's not clear to me.
Perhaps you could explain what that actually means and why it so high in the Otium accounts ?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
It means it isn't going out....

He's just being an idiot.

I suspect Eastwood is leaning on him to start some propaganda or he'll pull the plug on the car parks official status.

He's in trouble if this is the best he can do as he still has only managed to convince Tony.
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
He's just being an idiot.

I suspect Eastwood is leaning on him to start some propaganda or he'll pull the plug on the car parks official status.

He's in trouble if this is the best he can do as he still has only managed to convince Tony.

Really. Where dumb ass. You don't actually read anything do you.
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
He's just being an idiot.

I suspect Eastwood is leaning on him to start some propaganda or he'll pull the plug on the car parks official status.

He's in trouble if this is the best he can do as he still has only managed to convince Tony.

Why would Wasps be interested in our accounts unless they are doing due diligence?
An idiot is someone who does not ask questions and just accepts the bull5hit they are fed.

If anything the usual people are defending Sisu even though they do not know all the facts.
Same as going along with a new stadium without asking for the figures but still quoting Dim Fisher.
 

Nick

Administrator
Why would Wasps be interested in our accounts unless they are doing due diligence?
An idiot is someone who does not ask questions and just accepts the bull5hit they are fed.

If anything the usual people are defending Sisu even though they do not know all the facts.
Same as going along with a new stadium without asking for the figures but still quoting Dim Fisher.

What the hell have you been smoking? You don't seem to know the facts but keep making silly statements over and over again?
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Back on topic, the Worcester ticket sales must be really desperate.

Loads of e mails on free offers for them over the last couple of days.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Happy New Year all

Not got a lot of time to get involved in this right now. Its my busiest month of the year with the self assessment deadline. So will just make a couple of statements that are based on the audited accounts that have been filed.

Bear in mind that the owners are specialists in debt. Also no debt was ever actually purchased only shares or assets. Group companies can legally move assets, losses, liabilities around the internal group if they see fit and the paperwork is correct - sometimes it will require the permission of a 3rd party creditor

- there is no evidence of management fees being taken outside of the group companies. The only management fees were between CCFC ltd (paid) and CCFC H Ltd (received) and that meant the monies stayed within the group.
- any management fees paid to 3rd parties including SISU or ARVO would be payments to a related party and should have been disclosed under the Companies Act in the notes to the accounts
- Interest has either been paid by the group to ARVO, The Arley Group (Ranson), or to the purchasers of Prozone who advanced funds to the SBS&L group
- the accumulated total amount "invested" by SISU investors goes as follows
2008 11.03m
2009 23.73m
2010 24.1m
2011 29.7m
2012 28.6m
2013 28.6m
2014 28.6m

- SISU investors have not put any more money in since 2012. According to the accounts they did not accrue any interest until 2012. That's accrue it was rolled up as a creditor/liability not physically paid out.
- It would seem that between 2011 and 2012 what they were owed decreased by £1.125m. So something has been repaid following sale of Prozone it would seem

by 31/05/13 ARVO had made loans to the Group of 13.3m. The following year some of this and the accrued interest was converted in to some of the preference shares that were issued. There is no reason why ARVO should not charge interest for the use of its money. It is not a substitute for management charges - for one thing ARVO are not involved in the management. Is ARVO 100% owned by SISU Capital who knows. The interest rate would appear to be well over 10% but the security for the money lent is pretty poor - interest rates reflect the security

At 31/05/2014 external debt for the group (it is the external debt that is important not what Otium owes SBS&L or even the shares SBS&L owns in Otium) stood at 36.7m plus preference shares of 14.2m. There were a lot more preference shares issued but the balance were issued internally from Otium to SBS&L. The preference shares are not voting capital but in effect a type of debt. SBS&L group is in the hole for over £50m. As otium are the only trading element then effectively that's Otium's hole

Got to be careful with some terminology too. Otium is trading within its cash flow means - cash neutral. that means it spends the cash it receives. That is not necessarily the same as saying the accounts are at breakeven. For instance the £1m in interest each year is being rolled up in to creditors and not actually paid out (up till 31/05/14) so no cash spent on it but it will appear as a cost on the accounts

Losses of the group
2008 3.9m
2009 8.2m
2010 5.8m
2011 16.1m
2012 4.0m
2013 7.2m
2014 8.3m

equates in total to the "hole" the group are in

There has been a lot of realignment going on in the accounts. All perfectly legal if somewhat difficult to keep a track of. Bottom line however is that CCFC or Otium or SBS&L or whatever you like to call it all is still a basket case

Did the losses from CCFC H need to be transferred to Otium? Personally I don't see why and I have an even harder time believing the FL insisted on it.... but that's just my opinion it could be the case that they did. But why laden a new set up with old historical debt that really was just figures on paper? Makes it harder to sell on surely?

I think saying the Ricoh is worth £48.5m is misleading. The long lease is worth 48.5m with Wasps owning it at the date of the valuation in the opinion of expert professional valuers for the purposes of providing security for a bond issue. It is not the sale value of the lease. Nor is it the value of the shares in ACL before the sale to Wasps. The lease forms part of the assets owned by ACL but the value of ACL shares (effectively the Ricoh) must also include all of the known liabilities of ACL too plus an assessment of its future as it stood without a major long term tenant of the stadium - when sold by CCC/AEGC. The value of ACL now is totally different to what it was before the sale to Wasps. Like it or not what went on with CCFC depressed the value and left ACL vulnerable and the opportunity was missed by the CCFC owners - I think they overplayed their hand badly

Hope that helps
 
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J

Jack Griffin

Guest
Excellent summary OSB. Now get back to work on those tax returns. :D
 

italiahorse

Well-Known Member
What the hell have you been smoking? You don't seem to know the facts but keep making silly statements over and over again?

It doesn't stop me making an interpretation of the limited facts available.

You will see from OSB58 post that they are staying within the law but manipulating between Sisu accounts.
All I care about is what the effects are on CCFC. Hence asking the questions or making a suggestion to flush out the reasoning.

OSB has answered the question on the high level of interest charged and also reinforced my worry of the debt carrying through and making us more difficult to sell.

He has also reminded me I need to get my accounts in :thinking about:
 

skybluetony176

Well-Known Member
Couldn't have put it better myself OSB (literally). But that's exactly my understanding of the whole debacle. SISU clearly overplayed their hand that's the clearest part of this muddy puddle for me. I'm just staggered some on here for what ever reason can't or don't want to see that.
 

Nick

Administrator
It doesn't stop me making an interpretation of the limited facts available.

You will see from OSB58 post that they are staying within the law but manipulating between Sisu accounts.
All I care about is what the effects are on CCFC. Hence asking the questions or making a suggestion to flush out the reasoning.

OSB has answered the question on the high level of interest charged and also reinforced my worry of the debt carrying through and making us more difficult to sell.

He has also reminded me I need to get my accounts in :thinking about:

You will see they haven't taken any money out in management fees. Which was the original point...
 

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