Mean while back in court (11 Viewers)

[skybluetony176]

Not really, because it isn't judging them about the lies etc is it? It isn't judging to see about if the tax payer covered the bill for a media war, it isn't judging them to see if they were making agreements with local news paper.

It is only judging them on the one decision, not the morals and ethics they have used and shown also in other individual bits the way through.

But then because they have been dodgy in other aspects it doesn't make them guilty in others.

It isn't as simple as one right or wrong is it?

Ha ha. When are you going to start pointing that same stick at SISU.

 

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[Sky Blue Kid]

So if the court case is upheld in favour of SISU. will they sell up and F**k off? ohhhh I do hope so.

 

[Samo]

So if the court case is upheld in favour of SISU. will they sell up and F**k off? ohhhh I do hope so.

Then you'd be straight back to the Ricoh right?

 

[dongonzalos]

Exactly, some seem to think it's a judgement of the whole situation. Where if the council aren't found in the wrong for state aid they have done nothing wrong ever.

Does that mean if sisu won they have never done anything wrong?

The judgement is only on whether it was state aid or not.

Definitely not this is pure and simple are the council allowed to use money in that way. The fact it had taken a high court judge and three lords a hell of a lot of deliberation to make their minds up. Plus it is the first case of its kind says it isn't a very clear cut thing. The council wouldn't have thought we can't do this but let's do it anyway. They would have thought they could.

For me personally whichever way this decision goes it's not that important. I still feel overall SISU take the loin's share of the blame for the overall situation.

This particular issue will set case law for the future.

However the possibility of a SISU victory and compensation provided by the state. Which may either allow SISU to move on or to continue to support the club in the championship in the manner they have this season in division 3. Possibly appeals to me.
The question is would they get enough to do either if these things.

The idea of a SISU victory and the council paying out a big wedge doesn't appeal to me as that will affect the coventry people directly.

A council win and no compo. Leaves me wondering how we will survive in the championship unless SISU are prepared to invest more than is made via TV and tickets.

 

[dongonzalos]

About 15 pages

 

[dadgad]

For me personally whichever way this decision goes it's not that important. I still feel overall SISU take the loin's share of the blame for the overall situation.

.

The penalty for Fisher and his hedge fund mates should be a public kick in the nuts.

 

[dongonzalos]

The penalty for Fisher and his hedge fund mates should be a public kick in the nuts.

Is that one of the available remedies for a JR.
Actually and this genuine in finding on a JR if the Judges feel the claimant was at all also responsible for causing the authority to make the wrong decision they can say no compensation is allowed.......

 

[Nick]

Definitely not this is pure and simple are the council allowed to use money in that way. The fact it had taken a high court judge and three lords a hell of a lot of deliberation to make their minds up. Plus it is the first case of its kind says it isn't a very clear cut thing. The council wouldn't have thought we can't do this but let's do it anyway. They would have thought they could.

For me personally whichever way this decision goes it's not that important. I still feel overall SISU take the loin's share of the blame for the overall situation.

This particular issue will set case law for the future.

However the possibility of a SISU victory and compensation provided by the state. Which may either allow SISU to move on or to continue to support the club in the championship in the manner they have this season in division 3. Possibly appeals to me.
The question is would they get enough to do either if these things.

The idea of a SISU victory and the council paying out a big wedge doesn't appeal to me as that will affect the coventry people directly.

A council win and no compo. Leaves me wondering how we will survive in the championship unless SISU are prepared to invest more than is made via TV and tickets.

So if the council have been deemed to have been in the wrong for the loan and have to pay millions from the tax payers in Coventry, it's still mostly sisus fault?

Yes, they would have been dodgy and liars of the highest order, but they wouldn't have lost the tax payers of Coventry millions.

You can get the impression of how it will be spun about sisu taking money from the city of Coventry already.

If it goes and the state pays then it's a good thing because other councils will know then in the future, so it is preventing it from happening again.

Of course, if they are cleared the reaction will be they have done nothing wrong ever ever.

 

[dongonzalos]

So if the council have been deemed to have been in the wrong for the loan and have to pay millions from the tax payers in Coventry, it's still mostly sisus fault?

Yes, they would have been dodgy and liars of the highest order, but they wouldn't have lost the tax payers of Coventry millions.

You can get the impression of how it will be spun about sisu taking money from the city of Coventry already.

If it goes and the state pays then it's a good thing because other councils will know then in the future, so it is preventing it from happening again.

Of course, if they are cleared the reaction will be they have done nothing wrong ever ever.

You did say this judgement means nothing in terms of judging the council's behaviour didn't you. Yet here it sounds like you now say it does.............

"All the judges are judging is wether it is state aid or not, they aren't judging on whether the council have lied to tax payers and been morally wrong too. If it's just the council were ok to loan the money, it doesn't mean they havent done anything wrong in other aspects morally and ethically. Likewise if it's found they weren't allowed to give the loan, it doesn't mean sisu have never done anything wrong."

You should write yourself a list of who has done what wrong and see who you thing is most to blame. (Although I think you already, know who you think carries the biggest blame)

Unless you think it is 50:50 then there is one side more at fault than the other.

You moan about people on here taking just one side. Yet all I ever see you do is list the things implicitly that you think the council have done wrong in great detail. Defend SISU wherever you can.
Then when you are pulled up on it you say I sm not saying SISU have not done anything wrong.

 

[Nick]

You did say this judgement means nothing in terms of judging the council's behaviour didn't you. Yet here it sounds like you now say it does.............

"All the judges are judging is wether it is state aid or not, they aren't judging on whether the council have lied to tax payers and been morally wrong too. If it's just the council were ok to loan the money, it doesn't mean they havent done anything wrong in other aspects morally and ethically. Likewise if it's found they weren't allowed to give the loan, it doesn't mean sisu have never done anything wrong."

Yes, it is judging the behaviour in terms of the state aid isn't it? If it is found their behaviour (in the state aid) to do with that has cost the local tax payers millions, if their behaviour (in the state aid) has found to have cost the government millions and if their behaviour (in the state aid) was perfectly fine.

That's why I only gave 3 options from the outcome of the state aid stuff.

It's the whole "even if the council lose, it is still SISUs fault" type thing. Yes, of course it is SISUS fault for lots of things, but they won't have lost the Coventry Tax Payer or the Average Tax Payer millions (if they even get millions, if anything). No doubt there will be another "proud of the council" thread appearing.

 

[dongonzalos]

Yes, it is judging the behaviour in terms of the state aid isn't it? If it is found their behaviour (in the state aid) to do with that has cost the local tax payers millions, if their behaviour (in the state aid) has found to have cost the government millions and if their behaviour (in the state aid) was perfectly fine.

That's why I only gave 3 options from the outcome of the state aid stuff.

It's the whole "even if the council lose, it is still SISUs fault" type thing. Yes, of course it is SISUS fault for lots of things, but they won't have lost the Coventry Tax Payer or the Average Tax Payer millions (if they even get millions, if anything). No doubt there will be another "proud of the council" thread appearing.

Nick when was the last post by you specifically having a pop at SISU for something they have done wrong in this sorry saga?
I don't include your standard "SISU have done wrong as well"?

 

[Nick]

You moan about people on here taking just one side. Yet all I ever see you do is list the things implicitly that you think the council have done wrong in great detail. Defend SISU wherever you can.
Then when you are pulled up on it you say I sm not saying SISU have not done anything wrong.

Maybe because there is nobody on here posting saying SISU have done nothing at all wrong and how proud of them they are? Nobody seems blind to the fact SISU have screwed up like some are to the Council. You had Italia on here the other day trying to make out it was bollocks Wasps had been in touch before when the council said as an example.

 

[Nick]

Nick when was the last post by you specifically having a pop at SISU for something they have done wrong in this sorry saga?
I don't include your standard "SISU have done wrong as well"?

It is probably in amongst your proud of the council, they did nothing wrong posts.

There is the:

1. Absolutely awful PR and how with decent PR the whole thing could have been handled better.
2. Absolutely shocking ticketing system
3. Shocking customer service
4. There is the bullshit about the stadium that I said it was from the start
5. There is the caving in to hire Thorn
6. I said the other day instead of moving to Northampton, why not just leak about Wasps as it could have totally changed the game completely in terms of PR / Fans thoughts if they thought the club might be getting screwed over for a London Rugby Team.
7. The fact that if we "had" to go to Northampton, the handling of it. I was bleating on for weeks about if we had to go there, why aren't they running coaches, why aren't they doing x and y to at least try and make the best out of a bad situation.

Maybe I should start ranting about:

Management Fees that sisu are taking out to milk the club
Court fees that come out of transfer money
Any other myth that gets people going

It is a far cry from saying how proud I am of them, how they have done nothing wrong. There are people on here who refuse to see the council have done anything wrong, there aren't any who say the same about SISU are there?

If it is judged the council have done something wrong, I won't be like some on here last time when they were raising glasses tonight for the council getting one over on SISU....

 

[dongonzalos]

Maybe because there is nobody on here posting saying SISU have done nothing at all wrong and how proud of them they are? Nobody seems blind to the fact SISU have screwed up like some are to the Council. You had Italia on here the other day trying to make out it was bollocks Wasps had been in touch before when the council said as an example.

So who do you think is more at fault in the whole saga the council or SISU?

Also when was the last time you posted something on here specifically criticising an action taken by SISU?

I throw in the token line (like you dote SISU) that the council are also to blame but IMO SISU share the greater blame.

 

[Nick]

So who do you think is more at fault in the whole saga the council or SISU?

Also when was the last time you posted something on here specifically criticising an action taken by SISU?

I throw in the token line (like you dote SISU) that the council are also to blame but IMO SISU share the greater blame.

Can you point me to the thread I started about being so proud of SISU, just for a bit of balance? For you to say the council have done wrong totally goes against your post urging people to get behind the council and being proud of them and ACL.

When you say Saga, what exactly does that cover? They have both done things but it is hard to say whether x or y caused a or b isn't it?

You will also see that there are people who do make up lots of accusations about SISU and the club, then compare that to people who would make something up about the council? It would be the equivalent of somebody saying "Wasps gave Ann Lucas 50k cash for them to come here which is why she loves Wasps****". That would be bullshit.

**** I am not saying this did happen, it is an example of an EXTREME accusation with no facts behind it like the way people say things about the club.

I have even seen people tweet / post UP THE COUNCIL....

 

[Astute]

People use "illegal" about the club withholding rent. Seems acceptable then.


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So it is tit for tat then?

Neither illegal but both would be wrong.

 

[Nick]

So it is tit for tat then?

Neither illegal but both would be wrong.

Would be good to see them all do a bit of time though.

 

[Astute]

When you say Saga, what exactly does that cover?

The over 50's. And with the way our signings are going I can see some of our players being covered by them soon.

 

[Nick]

The over 50's. And with the way our signings are going I can see some of our players being covered by them soon.

Least they will get a nice cruise at the end of the season.

 

[Astute]

Would be good to see them all do a bit of time though.

It certainly would. But I would settle for them all to go away and be run by proper football people.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Then you'd be straight back to the Ricoh right?

Are you my mother?

 

[Astute]

Least they will get a nice cruise at the end of the season.

MAF is cruising already.

 

[Samo]

Are you my mother?

That'll be a no then.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Yes, it is judging the behaviour in terms of the state aid isn't it? If it is found their behaviour (in the state aid) to do with that has cost the local tax payers millions, if their behaviour (in the state aid) has found to have cost the government millions and if their behaviour (in the state aid) was perfectly fine.

But it's not state aid is it, there was a loan to support an existing business interest over a difficult time to a point where the outstanding outlay could be recovered and the business interest could be sold on to a commercial investor who would take responsibility for it in its entirety. Now if no buyer ever came forward then it might pong of fish, but a buyer did come forward.

It seems to me that is an accurate description of what happened.

 

[stupot07]

So it is tit for tat then?

Neither illegal but both would be wrong.

I agree with you, and Wasn't having a go at you. Got shot down when I made a similar point to yours in the during original JR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors

 

[chiefdave]

But it's not state aid is it, there was a loan to support an existing business interest over a difficult time

Think this was why the judge asked how much CCC had invested in ACL. The answer appeared to be nothing so it would be the risk of loaning £14m to a company that was struggling to protect an investment of £0.

 

[Sick Boy]

Can you point me to the thread I started about being so proud of SISU, just for a bit of balance? For you to say the council have done wrong totally goes against your post urging people to get behind the council and being proud of them and ACL.

When you say Saga, what exactly does that cover? They have both done things but it is hard to say whether x or y caused a or b isn't it?

You will also see that there are people who do make up lots of accusations about SISU and the club, then compare that to people who would make something up about the council? It would be the equivalent of somebody saying "Wasps gave Ann Lucas 50k cash for them to come here which is why she loves Wasps****". That would be bullshit.

**** I am not saying this did happen, it is an example of an EXTREME accusation with no facts behind it like the way people say things about the club.

I have even seen people tweet / post UP THE COUNCIL....

Great post that!!

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

That'll be a no then.

That'll be a "Mind your own f**king business then

 

[Samo]

That'll be a "Mind your own f**king business then

I meant no I'm not your mother... well you did ask!

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

I meant no I'm not your mother... well you did ask!

And I meant "Mind your own f**king business then With regards to if I go to the Ricoh again

 

[Samo]

And I meant "Mind your own f**king business then With regards to if I go to the Ricoh again

Hmmm... touchy subject?

 

[dongonzalos]

Can you point me to the thread I started about being so proud of SISU, just for a bit of balance? For you to say the council have done wrong totally goes against your post urging people to get behind the council and being proud of them and ACL.

When you say Saga, what exactly does that cover? They have both done things but it is hard to say whether x or y caused a or b isn't it?

You will also see that there are people who do make up lots of accusations about SISU and the club, then compare that to people who would make something up about the council? It would be the equivalent of somebody saying "Wasps gave Ann Lucas 50k cash for them to come here which is why she loves Wasps****". That would be bullshit.

**** I am not saying this did happen, it is an example of an EXTREME accusation with no facts behind it like the way people say things about the club.

I have even seen people tweet / post UP THE COUNCIL....

Sorry been a little busy so can't read everything yet but

This Saga = from the day SISU bought the club to today

Division three
Northampton
Wasps
No stadium
Numerous court actions

Who is more to blame the council or SISU in your opinion?

 

[dongonzalos]

Can you point me to the thread I started about being so proud of SISU, just for a bit of balance? For you to say the council have done wrong totally goes against your post urging people to get behind the council and being proud of them and ACL.

When you say Saga, what exactly does that cover? They have both done things but it is hard to say whether x or y caused a or b isn't it?

You will also see that there are people who do make up lots of accusations about SISU and the club, then compare that to people who would make something up about the council? It would be the equivalent of somebody saying "Wasps gave Ann Lucas 50k cash for them to come here which is why she loves Wasps****". That would be bullshit.

**** I am not saying this did happen, it is an example of an EXTREME accusation with no facts behind it like the way people say things about the club.

I have even seen people tweet / post UP THE COUNCIL....

Here is my post that you are obsessed about btw
Haven't urged anyone to do anything just gave my opinion, which hasn't changed:

Proud of Council and ACL
Is it so wrong to be proud of the council/ACL for the actions they have taken so far.

Firstly the council saving the Ricoh deal when it was about to fail.
Then offering the club a sliding scale rent dependant on league and attendances which was rejected.

If the rumours are true after years of regression under SISU when faced with owners not paying their bills. Making an attempt to take the situation head on that hopefully would have led to new owners.

Then standing up to an administration process that was in their opinion flaws. Surely the easy thing to do would be accept the administration decision. Getting the money back and not looking like the bad guy when the points deduction occurs. Instead they stood their ground protesting against a flawed process.

Despite all this and lots of provocation they have made various offers to get the club back. Including a temporary rent free offer.

Now with all this pressure surely the easiest thing to do would be to crumble to whatever SISU demand. Yet they are still prepared to fight it out and not be bullied by a hedge fund.

Some of their decisions have affected me personally in a negative way, yet I can't help taking my hat off to them and feel proud that little Coventry Council and a local charity are prepared to take on a global hedge fund.

Yes I do believe you can have it all support your team, support your council and do not want your clubs owners to stick around.

 

[Sick Boy]

Dongle is quite possibly the greatest troll ever

 

[Nick]

Here is my post that you are obsessed about btw
Haven't urged anyone to do anything just gave my opinion, which hasn't changed:

Proud of Council and ACL
Is it so wrong to be proud of the council/ACL for the actions they have taken so far.

Firstly the council saving the Ricoh deal when it was about to fail.
Then offering the club a sliding scale rent dependant on league and attendances which was rejected.

If the rumours are true after years of regression under SISU when faced with owners not paying their bills. Making an attempt to take the situation head on that hopefully would have led to new owners.

Then standing up to an administration process that was in their opinion flaws. Surely the easy thing to do would be accept the administration decision. Getting the money back and not looking like the bad guy when the points deduction occurs. Instead they stood their ground protesting against a flawed process.

Despite all this and lots of provocation they have made various offers to get the club back. Including a temporary rent free offer.

Now with all this pressure surely the easiest thing to do would be to crumble to whatever SISU demand. Yet they are still prepared to fight it out and not be bullied by a hedge fund.

Some of their decisions have affected me personally in a negative way, yet I can't help taking my hat off to them and feel proud that little Coventry Council and a local charity are prepared to take on a global hedge fund.

Yes I do believe you can have it all support your team, support your council and do not want your clubs owners to stick around.

So if you are proud of their actions you don't think they have done anything wrong, quite simple really.