Mean while back in court (8 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

However, the deal that was also considered derisory was the one that wasn't playing hardball, and was going in with the Wasps offer.

It's an uncomfortable truth that the (immoral? unethical?) recent practices have been the only things to change the council's mind on being flexible with their requests for ACL. It's worth noting that *nobody* has seen the ground on original lease terms worth buying.

To head off the accusations from the start...

the problem with an investment fund buying a football club has always been investors will want a return and, without the emotional investment in the club of an owner-fan, what do they do if it goes wrong? Now personally I thought we'd have been wound up by now. Nt sure which is better...

The other problem is an investment fund wants a quick return, so doesn't invest in the foundations of a club (i.e. players ahead of ground) which leaves the club in danger if player investment goes wrong.

However...

It's the council's inflexibility that encourages such practices too, as it leaves the field open for solely SISU-esque bidders, who play fast and loose. It's making such investments on commercial terms that turns this into a commercial dispute, and that is unedifying from both perspectives, but sadly inevitable when there are divergent aims from both partners.

Now, this probably isn't local government's fault. Blame national (and EU) policy that means state aid is not allowed in the traditional sense. Just what is wrong with state aid as a concept?

But, if it's to be a commercial battle, then I can't take sides as I find the very concept of making money from a social entity distateful in the extreme. I don't necessarily think the council's opening position can be excused or explained by SISU's actions - it was this hardball action that *encouraged* the likes of SISU.

And the likes of SISU are very bad news indeed.

So, we are where we are. Blame as to who started it can go round and round and round. It's naive to think this particular court case will resolve things too, but it has at least shone a light on both parties, and enquiring about practices is no bad thing. It might also be a stage in allowing all parties to move forward, instead of the circular arguments.

These circular arguments need to take place however, rather than blind acceptance and polarisation.

It's very simple to me.

CCFC messed up on the stadium finances and the council finished off the stadium.
CCFC obtained half of ACL prior to the stadium opening.
CCFC messed up on cash flow and so sold their share in ACL to Higgs with a promise to pay back later at effectively the same price.
CCFC/SISU messed up and CCFC got relegated.
CCFC/SISU could not survive financially in League 1 and approached ACL for help with the rent.
CCC/ACL played hard ball and refused to help. (10% blame)
SISU made a play for ACL but never made an sensible offer, if any. (10%)
CCC/ACL played hard ball and refused to deal with SISU on any sale, including Higgs veto. (5%)
SISU moved us to Northampton and made a play for ACL/Ricoh freehold. (75%)
WASPS moved in, saved CCC/ACL skin and effectively stopped SISU obtaining the stadium. (Blameless)

 

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[Deleted member 5849]

Ahem, from August 2009

the first step in his strategy to eventually take up the option of a 50 per cent stake in the Arena. Although the objective of Ricoh Arena ownership is still on Ranson’s personal radar, together with a Premiership placing within two to three years, his determined but understated style is to quietly progress discussions behind the scenes with the stakeholders in the Arena who are very much aware that 50 per cent ownership and eventually total acquisition of the stadium in the longer term is very much on the Chairman’s wish list.

He wanted half of it at least.. ;-)

Let's have a look at the direct quotes rather than the commentary.

"At some point in the future it will make financial sense to do it," Ranson told BBC Coventry & Warwickshire. "But not at the moment.
"There's a false perception that it solves all our problems, it doesn't. It doesn't even come close."
Ranson added: "We've got other priorities at the moment. The option is until 2015.

"If we're in the Premiership or top half of the Championship with 25,000 people and we've got a team that's established and really doing well, then we'll look at it."

(my emphasis)

Priority was spunking on players for a promotion to Premiership riches. Ignore the infrastructure, that will follow if the high risk roll of the dice comes off.

Well... it *may* follow.

Or they'd all sell up and... laugh.

As an aside, interesting the option is claimed to expire in 2015...

What really gets my goat is the bizarre logic that criticising hedge fund managers and their strategies is to make hedge fund managers look good!

 

[Nick]

It's very simple to me.

CCFC messed up on the stadium finances and the council finished off the stadium.
CCFC obtained half of ACL prior to the stadium opening.
CCFC messed up on cash flow and so sold their share in ACL to Higgs with a promise to pay back later at effectively the same price.
CCFC/SISU messed up and CCFC got relegated.
CCFC/SISU could not survive financially in League 1 and approached ACL for help with the rent.
CCC/ACL played hard ball and refused to help. (10% blame)
SISU made a play for ACL but never made an sensible offer, if any. (10%)
CCC/ACL played hard ball and refused to deal with SISU on any sale, including Higgs veto. (5%)
SISU moved us to Northampton and made a play for ACL/Ricoh freehold. (75%)
WASPS moved in, saved CCC/ACL skin and effectively stopped SISU obtaining the stadium. (Blameless)

You forgot to put Wasps in further up.

How can you say it is because of Northampton wasps moved in? They were lining it up before we moved...

 

[Captain Dart]

You forgot to put Wasps in further up.

How can you say it is because of Northampton wasps moved in? They were lining it up before we moved...

Maybe, but if that was the case why did SISU pull such a stupid stunt as to move to Northampton with that threat in play.

Didn't you claim Rossborough made public statements about Wasps interest? If that was so then CCFC should have been aware & wary.

 

[italiahorse]

You forgot to put Wasps in further up.

How can you say it is because of Northampton wasps moved in? They were lining it up before we moved...

I've only put stuff in I can be 100% sure of.

 

[Nick]

I've only put stuff in I can be 100% sure of.

Or missed out things you don't want to acknowledge.

 

[Nick]

Maybe, but if that was the case why did SISU pull such a stupid stunt as to move to Northampton with that threat in play.

Didn't you claim Rossborough made public statements about Wasps interest? If that was so then CCFC should have been aware & wary.

I am not sure either, I'd have played the "The council are screwing the football club over but want to sell to Wasps" line Drum up support, show Wasps are lurking and I think pre Northampton if Wasps have attempted to come it would have been different.

 

[olderskyblue]

Let's have a look at the direct quotes rather than the commentary.


I don't disagree with what his priorities were, but I do recall him discussing getting the Ricoh during one of those sessions he held there very early on in his tenure, and with none of the "Premiership, 25,000 crowd" caveats either.

maybe just "crowd pleasing" statements, or my memory being crap....

 

[olderskyblue]

They were lining it up before we moved...

Is that a fact now then?

A/Some discussions with the council was definitely "lining it up" ?

Who did they meet? what was the agenda? did they agree anything? Was that their only option at that time?

Blimey Nick, if it was Gilbert reporting something like that about SISU you would be right on his case....

 

[Nick]

Is that a fact now then?

A/Some discussions with the council was definitely "lining it up" ?

Who did they meet? what was the agenda? did they agree anything? Was that their only option at that time?

Blimey Nick, if it was Gilbert reporting something like that about SISU you would be right on his case....

It is enough for CCC to use as security in court isn't it, so can't be just a chat over a pint? I haven't said anything was agreed, just that they were about at that time still.

Difference is, it might actually get looked into if it was SISU

 

[italiahorse]

It is enough for CCC to use as security in court isn't it, so can't be just a chat over a pint? I haven't said anything was agreed, just that they were about at that time still.

Difference is, it might actually get looked into if it was SISU

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the comment get discounted in court and even finished with the CCC QC saying something like "Ok I may be stretching it a little" ?
Yet the way its discussed on here it's as if we have found the smoking gun. :facepalm:

 

[Nick]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't the comment get discounted in court and even finished with the CCC QC saying something like "Ok I may be stretching it a little" ?
Yet the way its discussed on here it's as if we have found the smoking gun. :facepalm:

Nobody is mentioning a smoking gun.

It wasn't discounted, as there was a document to prove it:

Council QC said the council produced a financial forecast to see if ACL could service the council loan without any rent from the football club.
He said another factor to consider was that the tenancy of Wasps had been waiting in the wings for “some time”.
Justice Treacy asks for evidence to show Wasps was in the wings at the time of the loan.
Sisu QC says the document with reference to this was from March 2012.
Council QC admits he may have been overdoing it to say it was “in the wings”, “but certainly it had been mentioned”.

He said the phrase "waiting in the wings" was overdoing it. He was using Wasps to try and prove the security.

It wasn't discounted.

If it was a discussion over a pint, it wouldn't be documented and I doubt the Council Lawyer would even mention it in court.

Still, there's a document to prove it and the Cov RFC fella said he was approached. You carry on believing

 

[olderskyblue]

It is enough for CCC to use as security in court isn't it, so can't be just a chat over a pint? I haven't said anything was agreed, just that they were about at that time still.

Difference is, it might actually get looked into if it was SISU

It's the "lining it up" comment used. It smacks of an agenda. If it was the CT you would say it was "click bait"

I sold a business once. The people that eventually bought it visited me 2 years before that to have a discussion about how I would feel about their interest. A year later more discussions were had, and things got serious. I also found out that they had visited 4 other similar business at the same time as our first meeting. My business was one of their options.

Were they "lining it up" or just having a discussion to see how the land lay?

 

[Nick]

It's the "lining it up" comment used. It smacks of an agenda. If it was the CT you would say it was "click bait"

I sold a business once. The people that eventually bought it visited me 2 years before that to have a discussion about how I would feel about their interest. A year later more discussions were had, and things got serious. I also found out that they had visited 4 other similar business at the same time as our first meeting. My business was one of their options.

Were they "lining it up" or just having a discussion to see how the land lay?

Strange, even the council lawyer said "Waiting in the wings" before he tried to take it back He didn't own Wasps then, so I guess he had to then go and buy them before he could move it on...

 

[olderskyblue]

Still, there's a document to prove it and the Cov RFC fella said he was approached. You carry on believing

Wasn't Rossborough approached about a potential merger?

 

[Nick]

Wasn't Rossborough approached about a potential merger?

Yeah, the 2 clubs working together or a merger.

I doubt he wanted to move Cov Rugby down south or move Wasps to the Butts though...*


*He may well have, I am not saying it is fact, just opinion.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I don't disagree with what his priorities were, but I do recall him discussing getting the Ricoh during one of those sessions he held there very early on in his tenure, and with none of the "Premiership, 25,000 crowd" caveats either.

maybe just "crowd pleasing" statements, or my memory being crap....

FWIW, back in the day I had a meeting with McGinnity 'between these four walls' and asked him why, if the priority was getting the Ricoh, apparently our lovely benefactor at the time was willing to sanction buying Stern John and trying to buy Malky Mackay, but not put the money towards the ground.

The only answer back was 'we will own it'.

Same shit, different teller.

The curse of football chairmen throughout time, they go for the instant gratification policy.

 

[italiahorse]

Wasn't Rossborough approached about a potential merger?

I think he also approached Bedford who were a top team struggling finacially in the 90's to bring them to Coventry and hence obtain top rugby status here.

Never happened

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think he also approached Bedford who were a top team struggling finacially in the 90's to bring them to Coventry and hence obtain top rugby status here.

Never happened

Nope, that was Keith Fairbrother, owner at the time, who bought Bedford to take their place in the top flight.

The deal was eventually vetod by the ERP (English Rugby Partnership, top flight custodians)... and a good job too, as what kind of sporting ethos is it to buy a place for a city in the top flight without it being earned?

Ironically, the first game for the 'new' club was due to be against Wasps...

 

[dongonzalos]

Richardson is a smart man.
In 2012 he would have seen a potential bargain in Wasps.
His main problem if he gets them is getting their own stadium.
He then sees a potential bargain in the Ricoh when looking at all the stadium options.
It wouldn't surprise me if he even considered a potential bargain in CCFC. Then realised he would have no chance with SISU.
He would have then been looking at the hurdles such as Cov Rugby Club.
There is no way he didn't speak to the council aswell. However I guess like with Cov Rugby club that was probably a feeler chat.
He still had to buy into Wasps and then make his move for the ricoh. So much could happen in that time I bet he had loads of conversations with lots of people.
I guess when CCC talk about his contact that probably means when it was serious and he is saying I have the means and want to buy the Ricoh.

 

[Grendel]

Shapiro wanted CCFC debts paid off? So how much was that and from where?

And didn't SISU make out that they were going to give Higgs the 6m they wanted but then started their games?

Ranson wanted the Ricoh. Do you think we would be in the same situation if he had the final say in what happened? He didn't stay long because of what he could see that SISU were up to. Ranson wanted to build a side. SISU wanted to cash in whenever they could.

He didn't stay long because he was doing some interesting deals with Cardiff while still being our chairman.

The interest rates on loans to CCFC were far higher than sisu rates as well.

No doubt you'll believe him if he said he just got his ccfc's mixed up.

 

[Hobo]

They have never said they would not do the deal. Fisher made a glib comment after the event and that is not the same thing.

You have yet to answer "when hell freezes over " was it a glib comment said in private or was it a publicly announced statement by CCC?

 

[Grendel]

You have yet to answer "when hell freezes over " was it a glib comment said in private or was it a publicly announced statement by CCC?

It was in writing. Also it's a view confirmed by a certain person who was a decision maker in the process.

 

[Hobo]

Ranson is a hero as he is seen as anti sisu.....

Is that your opinion or what you think other people think?

If it is the latter don't include me.

 

[Grendel]

Is that your opinion or what you think other people think?

If it is the latter don't include me.

Astute clearly believed him

 

[fernandopartridge]

You have yet to answer "when hell freezes over " was it a glib comment said in private or was it a publicly announced statement by CCC?

It was made in a public meeting by an elected member of the council. They are either stupid or incredibly naive to assume that it would be kept private.

 

[chiefdave]

You have yet to answer "when hell freezes over " was it a glib comment said in private or was it a publicly announced statement by CCC?

John Mutton said it in an interview on CWR during his time as council leader. As well as openly stating the council had a not for sale policy regarding their 50% share in ACL.

 

[DazzleTommyDazzle]

A number of intemperate statements were made by "both sides" during this fiasco.

My personal favourite was Mr Fisher when he was asked on CWR when we'd go back to the Ricoh and he replied "When they give us our 10 points back".

I'm still impressed with my self control in not hurling my coffee mug at the radio at that moment.

(I would have done except that it's a CCFC mug that I was given as a birthday present in the early 70's, with the old "elephant on a football" logo)

 

[shy_tall_knight]

I'll ask this question again to the pro SISU/ anti CCC posters if SISU do win how will this benefit CCFC ?.

 

[dongonzalos]

I'll ask this question again to the pro SISU/ anti CCC posters if SISU do win how will this benefit CCFC ?.

The only thing I can think, is if SISU get enough compensation to pay back their investors.
Will they continue with this new found belief that wisely spent investment on the pitch is probably the most important factor of running a successful football club. However from a better financial position. Or will they move on and sell the club to someone who feels they can.

 

[dongonzalos]

A number of intemperate statements were made by "both sides" during this fiasco.

My personal favourite was Mr Fisher when he was asked on CWR when we'd go back to the Ricoh and he replied "When they give us our 10 points back".

I'm still impressed with my self control in not hurling my coffee mug at the radio at that moment.

(I would have done except that it's a CCFC mug that I was given as a birthday present in the early 70's, with the old "elephant on a football" logo)

I want that mug

 

[dongonzalos]

John Mutton said it in an interview on CWR during his time as council leader. As well as openly stating the council had a not for sale policy regarding their 50% share in ACL.

Why did he hold this view, do you think?

 

[Hobo]

I'll ask this question again to the pro SISU/ anti CCC posters if SISU do win how will this benefit CCFC ?.

I can't see it helping at all. Fisher has indicated I think that he doesn't see it benefiting the club.

We will still have no ground. So either remain tenants to another party or build a new ground which will cost more than buying into the Rico would have cost. Between a rock and a hard place comes to mind.

 

[Captain Dart]

Why did he hold this view, do you think?

Good question.

 

[Nick]

Why did he hold this view, do you think?

Probably the same reason the council leader before wasn't having any of other people interested in the club who were interested in the ground.

No idea why they were so keen for CCFC (even before SISU) not to get the share back but weren't fussed about Wasps.