2 year plan (7 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

If that's it then surely Mowbray can only be judged towards the end or after the 2 year period. It's been a dreadful run but we weren't expecting a genuine shot at promotion were we? Expectations have risen due to Mowbray and how he'd got us playing, it seems unfair to punish him now the reality is we're not that good.

If we got promoted this season we'd be back to square one in a year's time. He needs to build a team to get out of this league and establish itself in the Championship, the current side isn't seemingly capable of the former (still not over yet) but certainly won't be capable of the latter.
Look at Bristol C. They were awful the season before they got promoted, hadn't established themselves as a team (like Burton or the likes of Swansea in the past), instead having a flash in the pan good season. They will be relegated and back to square one themselves.

Mowbray was the messiah on here not long back, can't believe the hypocrisy of some now comparing Mowbray to Pressley (who himself was a clueless idiot a few weeks ago).

Stick with it and see what happens over the summer and next season.

 

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[oucho]

I agree - as long as we're in about the same ballpark as we are now this time next year, I'd give him a 2 year contract extension.

 

[ccfcway]

a 2 year plan is....

a) Core foundations of a squad are put in place in year 1, the squad build together and look to make a push in year 2 with one or two additions
b) Have a go with a squad in year 1, lose most of them in summer and have a go again in year 2 with new players, hoping to get better results
c) something made up to excuse mistakes made in year 1

 

[christonabike]

TM needs to buy or get players capable of getting us out of this league and like you say be good enough to play in the Championship. Those sort of players are not going to be cheap. We need a strong back bone of a side and a scattering of newbies. Not all newbies will work out but no more journey men like Hunt Ramage etc.
There have been plenty of players we have come up against at struggling clubs who have shone so maybe now is the time to help mark Venus before the season ends in May. If we dont go up this season its because the side isnt good enough. The positive side is 70% of the squad are out of contract. Time to start a thread on who we should go for... Oh and did you know JOB has been putting off a groin operation for two years?

 

[skybluetony176]

Well said FP.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Mowbray was the messiah on here not long back, can't believe the hypocrisy of some now comparing Mowbray to Pressley (who himself was a clueless idiot a few weeks ago).

Stick with it and see what happens over the summer and next season.

This is the most annoying thing. Truth is, both Mowbray and Pressley have their strengths and weaknesses. Those self-same weaknesses are exactly those that the likes of stupot were banging on about while being told how negative he was but... they're not hidden weaknesses, and nor should they be a surprise!

We've got a competent manager in a low-ish division, managing a club that's been, and still is, surrounded by turmoil. It's not great atm, the results are worrying me in terms of what crowds (and thus budget!) we get next season but... it is what it is.

Pointless getting another hired goon, bloating the squad a bit more with new players to add to those rejected by the new manager, and starting again with the same 'it's so much better now then...' until the reality kicks in.

Give a manager a chance to manage and, if he was the messiah a few weeks ago, then have faith he still is.

 

[pusbccfc]

I understand what you are trying to say, but how has he built foundations? The side next season will be completely different.

Let's be honest, we got lucky with Armstrong. Mowbray may have known he was a good player, but no one, even Newcastle, would have pictured him doing as well as he did. Who is to say we will get lucky with loan players like Armstrong next year.

This season was the perfect time to get out of this league. The standard is woeful, by far the worst since we have been down here, which might not be the same next season. The owners have also seemingly put a bit more money into the side, again, there is no guarantee of this next season.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I understand what you are trying to say, but how has he built foundations? The side next season will be completely different.

Let's be honest, we got lucky with Armstrong. Mowbray may have known he was a good player, but no one, even Newcastle, would have pictured him doing as well as he did. Who is to say we will get lucky with loan players like Armstrong next year.

These are concerns, and he's not above criticism (I'd far rather we'd had a mediocre season with our own players being given the chance to learn from mistakes) but...

He got lucky with Armstrong?

The same as Robins did with McGoldrick? The same as Pressley did with Wilson?

Could of course be some credit due to Mowbray that he picked up a young kid loanee, who'd done sod all in a first team environment, and got him firing.

Could also not be unexpected that said kid burns out a bit toward the end of the season, as his first ever full season of first team football takes its toll.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I understand what you are trying to say, but how has he built foundations? The side next season will be completely different.

Let's be honest, we got lucky with Armstrong. Mowbray may have known he was a good player, but no one, even Newcastle, would have pictured him doing as well as he did. Who is to say we will get lucky with loan players like Armstrong next year.

This season was the perfect time to get out of this league. The standard is woeful, by far the worst since we have been down here, which might not be the same next season. The owners have also seemingly put a bit more money into the side, again, there is no guarantee of this next season.

I'm not saying he has built foundations, though his more recent signings suggest a longer term view.

 

[pusbccfc]

These are concerns, and he's not above criticism (I'd far rather we'd had a mediocre season with our own players being given the chance to learn from mistakes) but...

He got lucky with Armstrong?

The same as Robins did with McGoldrick? The same as Pressley did with Wilson?

Could of course be some credit due to Mowbray that he picked up a young kid loanee, who'd done sod all in a first team environment, and got him firing.

Could also not be unexpected that said kid burns out a bit toward the end of the season, as his first ever full season of first team football takes its toll.

We didn't get lucky with strikers last year, did we?

 

[eastwoodsdustman]

You've got to let him see the plan through to a degree. My worry is that our current style and formation is not working now and if we carry it on next season then we could be in trouble. A lack of change of style and formation is a real concern. If the supposed starting 11 aren't doing well with the formation then why would the 'second string' coming on in their place make it work any better?

 

[Skyblueweeman]

If that's it then surely Mowbray can only be judged towards the end or after the 2 year period. It's been a dreadful run but we weren't expecting a genuine shot at promotion were we? Expectations have risen due to Mowbray and how he'd got us playing, it seems unfair to punish him now the reality is we're not that good.

If we got promoted this season we'd be back to square one in a year's time. He needs to build a team to get out of this league and establish itself in the Championship, the current side isn't seemingly capable of the former (still not over yet) but certainly won't be capable of the latter.
Look at Bristol C. They were awful the season before they got promoted, hadn't established themselves as a team (like Burton or the likes of Swansea in the past), instead having a flash in the pan good season. They will be relegated and back to square one themselves.

Mowbray was the messiah on here not long back, can't believe the hypocrisy of some now comparing Mowbray to Pressley (who himself was a clueless idiot a few weeks ago).

Stick with it and see what happens over the summer and next season.

Just to confirm...I was one of only a handful (if any others at all), that wasn't overly enamoured with TMs appointment and said so on more than one occasion at the time when he was appointed (I'd find the posts but cant' be arsed). That said, and in his defence, he did turn me round in the first few months of this season. What I saw at the end of last season as poor but this season seemed to be different.

Then for whatever reason, the wheels came off. People can blame the likes of Cole coming in, Anderson coming in, Kent going out etc but the one constant has been TM. In terms of the hypocrisy you mention, couldn't it be said that the hypocrisy is greater with those who called for Pressleys head but are giving TM the benefit of the doubt? It's a results business and as Nicks thread proved earlier in, TMs last 15 games are worse than SPs last 15 games.

Don't get me wrong...off the pitch, I think what TM has instilled has been great. Giving the club an identity with things like the coach, training ground, the scouting system etc has been great. But managers are judged by what's going on, on the pitch.

I often agree with you on most things FP but on this one, I think we see things differently. And if TM proves me wrong, is given time and proves he is the messiah that some made him out to be, fair play to him. Anything that makes us a better club on and off the pitch, sits well with me. I just don't think TM is that man.

Respectfully,

WM

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Just to confirm...I was one of only a handful (if any others at all), that wasn't overly enamoured with TMs appointment and said so on more than one occasion at the time when he was appointed (I'd find the posts but cant' be arsed).

The thing is, I'm not sure he's that great, or even the right type of manager for our situation (lower league players who battle rather than youngsters loaned from the top flight would be more my choice, but he's gone for the latter as much because that's where his contacts are) but... the owners appointed him.

So if he's not the right type of manager for our situation, then why on earth would our owners suddenly show good judgement appointing someone else?!? And if supposedly everyone has worked out Mowbray then, well... this is his first season managing at this level, so maybe he's learned from it what's needed to succeed in this division?

And if so then... why not let him benefit from what he's learned, rather than go back to square one yet again with another willing victim?

Ever since Reid left (the last manager I wanted out and, let's face it, he'd led Sunderland *and* Man City to their highest league places in recent times before he rocked up with us, so was hardly a failure) I've come to the conclusion that those at the club exercise such spectacularly bad footballing judgement, that we may as well let the current incumbent try as hard as possible to put their plan into action, rather than rinsing and repeating.

The one difference here is Anderson has come in since Mowbray was appointed, so if he thinks differently he deserves the chance to show his own judgement isn't as shocking as those who've gone before him, and install his own choice as first team manager. If, however, he feels Mowbray is capable then... it's his judgement, and not the first team manager's that should be questioned... and by implication those who appointed *him*.

It's easy to hide behind staff for culpability.

 

[mrtrench]

Well yeah, what is the 2 year plan? I thought about it and posted a thread several days ago - there's no evidence IMO of concerted progress against a plan. Surely the plan isn't to get loads of loan players in every year.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well yeah, what is the 2 year plan? I thought about it and posted a thread several days ago - there's no evidence IMO of concerted progress against a plan. Surely the plan isn't to get loads of loan players in every year.

I suspect 'two year plan' was more a tactic to stop fans kneejerking when we didn't turn from relegation strugglers to promotion contenders overnight...

 

[mrtrench]

I think you're right. But that doesn't excuse the constant short-termism (including losing managers every 15 months). Success has to be built slowly and methodically IMO.

 

[skybluetony176]

I know what you mean Weeman. I pointed out at the time of his appointment that he was a manager who had failed in his previous appointment in the championship and had come down a league to rebuild his managerial career thus making him a league one standard manager and some went ape shit at me. Telling me things like I'm stupid, he's a premier league quality manager blah blah blah. The irony being that the majority of these posters have lead the calls for him to be sacked presumably because they no longer think he's a premier league quality manager.

I swear some posters put our managers and players on a pedestal purely because they enjoy the sport of knocking them off.

I think if many had have stayed grounded in the first place not only about why we could sign TM in the first place, take heed of the work he's had to do behind the scenes (sort Ryton out, sort a scouting network out etc.), listened to what he was saying when others were getting carried away convincing themselves we would walk the league i.e. He's been top before x amount of times before Xmas only to miss out on the playoffs etc. they wouldn't be so disappointed now.

He always knew how good this team is and that wasn't good enough to sustain a promotion push. Did he expect the wheels all to fall off in one go? I doubt it but he could see we wouldn't stay the course.

I feel that the ones feeling hard done by probably only have themselves to blame for not seeing and hearing what was in front of them from the outset.

Me. I didn't overhype him when he arrived, I listened to what he had to say, I recognise that he wasn't only rebuilding a team he was rebuilding a club, I recognised that he wasn't starting from an ideal place and that that wasn't his doing, I think we'll finish mid table unless a great deal of luck falls into our laps which is what I always thought at the beginning of the season. What cause do I have to be disappointed when I didn't let my expectations get ahead of me?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think you're right. But that doesn't excuse the constant short-termism (including losing managers every 15 months). Success has to be built slowly and methodically IMO.

I agree entirely.

But in that, results are almost incidental. The biggest criticism of Mowbray in my view is that we have had loan after loan patched with veterans. I'd like to give him a close season to show that he's changing that approach, however.

 

[Samo]

The plan, however long, is irrelevant if the manager proves to be incapable of constructing a decent defense (not just here) but seems to be obsessed with collecting pretty midfielders who are then played in a 'system' so fluid that every one of them is dizzy from being in, out and shaken all about. The team is too defensive and yet can't defend, the midfield is a mess and has no bottle and up front we have one young striker who's been rumbled and 3 old blokes who were never prolific as back up. A brand new plan is what's required.

 

[mrtrench]

I agree entirely.

But in that, results are almost incidental. The biggest criticism of Mowbray in my view is that we have had loan after loan patched with veterans. I'd like to give him a close season to show that he's changing that approach, however.

Well, it isn't cheap building a sustainable side; you need to be buying some players IMO - not for the point of buying but for the point of getting the player you want/need. If Mowbray were permitted to spend some of the Maddison money then he should really start on a 2 year plan this summer; bring in 3 or 4 players (including a striker) on 3 year + contracts and I'll start to believe he's serious. Bring in some more aged freebies and 6 loanee kids and it proves he's not.

EDIT: And BTW if he hadn't already bought in Vincelot and Jones then it would be 5 or 6.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Well, it isn't cheap building a sustainable side; you need to be buying some players IMO - not for the point of buying but for the point of getting the player you want/need. If Mowbray were permitted to spend some of the Maddison money then he should really start on a 2 year plan this summer; bring in 3 or 4 players (including a striker) on 3 year + contracts and I'll start to believe he's serious. Bring in some more aged freebies and 6 loanee kids and it proves he's not.

EDIT: And BTW if he hadn't already bought in Vincelot and Jones then it would be 5 or 6.

Yup. FWIW it's the Charlton model under Curbishley. Sell a player, keep a wedge to pay running costs for the club, bring in 2-3 players to replace the one, but strengthn the side.

The problem is we're starting from a low base!

But it's why I'd *always* support a manager who did that as a strategy... with the caveat you'd have to get the right players, naturally.

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

Well Gary Neville had long enough and got sacked.

Mowbray is lucky to be in a job.

Also he refuses to move to the area because he might get sacked so commutes some ridiculous hours each day.

You have to question how motivated Mowbray is?

 

[ccfcway]

You have to question how motivated Mowbray is?

no you don't, he said it last night

"feels like the season is petering out"

 

[higgs]

We need to get roy keane in as manager if the players don't show passion for the club under him then we have no chance

 

[Samo]

We need to get roy keane in as manager if the players don't show passion for the club under him then we have no chance

As his record proves.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

As his record proves.

Bring in Bryan Robson while we're at it.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Well Gary Neville had long enough and got sacked.

Mowbray is lucky to be in a job.

Also he refuses to move to the area because he might get sacked so commutes some ridiculous hours each day.

You have to question how motivated Mowbray is?

Would you commit when you're managing a club that on average will not see out your contract? With idiot fans who want the manager out after every downturn in form?

If that's it then surely Mowbray can only be judged towards the end or after the 2 year period. It's been a dreadful run but we weren't expecting a genuine shot at promotion were we? Expectations have risen due to Mowbray and how he'd got us playing, it seems unfair to punish him now the reality is we're not that good.

If we got promoted this season we'd be back to square one in a year's time. He needs to build a team to get out of this league and establish itself in the Championship, the current side isn't seemingly capable of the former (still not over yet) but certainly won't be capable of the latter.
Look at Bristol C. They were awful the season before they got promoted, hadn't established themselves as a team (like Burton or the likes of Swansea in the past), instead having a flash in the pan good season. They will be relegated and back to square one themselves.

Mowbray was the messiah on here not long back, can't believe the hypocrisy of some now comparing Mowbray to Pressley (who himself was a clueless idiot a few weeks ago).

Stick with it and see what happens over the summer and next season.

 

[Samo]

Would you commit when you're managing a club that on average will not see out your contract? With idiot fans who want the manager out after every downturn in form?

Every downturn? There has been only one downturn, a fucking long one with not an upturn in sight.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Every downturn? There has been only one downturn, a fucking long one with not an upturn in sight.

Every steeper descent then!

 

[dongonzalos]

If that's it then surely Mowbray can only be judged towards the end or after the 2 year period. It's been a dreadful run but we weren't expecting a genuine shot at promotion were we? Expectations have risen due to Mowbray and how he'd got us playing, it seems unfair to punish him now the reality is we're not that good.

If we got promoted this season we'd be back to square one in a year's time. He needs to build a team to get out of this league and establish itself in the Championship, the current side isn't seemingly capable of the former (still not over yet) but certainly won't be capable of the latter.
Look at Bristol C. They were awful the season before they got promoted, hadn't established themselves as a team (like Burton or the likes of Swansea in the past), instead having a flash in the pan good season. They will be relegated and back to square one themselves.

Mowbray was the messiah on here not long back, can't believe the hypocrisy of some now comparing Mowbray to Pressley (who himself was a clueless idiot a few weeks ago).

Stick with it and see what happens over the summer and next season.

Totally agree.

However his shock over achieving at the start of the season meant the signings through the season were more about achieving quick time promotion rather than building the foundations.

The recent three signings seemed to be about the two year plan. Will be interesting to see what the summer brings

 

[Gazolba]

[h=2]2 year plan[/h]

You really are obsessed with this '2-year plan' thing aren't you? When will you figure out there is no '2-year plan'. There are just a succession of one-year plans. And next season's one-year plan may bear no resemblance to this seasons.

 

[shmmeee]

I could buy the 2 year plan if I saw a spine of contracted players emerging through our signings, but I don't.

We've needed a strong GK and CB and ST all season and been unable to recruit them. My concern is that Mowbray simply doesn't have whatever it takes to get a side out of L1, he's fallen foul of the same hurdles he did at previous clubs. Am happy to give him the summer and see what he does though. We're 6/7 signings off a squad at the moment and the right moves there could put us much further forward next season.

 

[Gazolba]

TM needs to buy or get players capable of getting us out of this league and like you say be good enough to play in the Championship. <snip>

We've had plenty of players like that over the past few seasons but once we realised they were that good, we sold them.

 

[italiahorse]

Surely the plan restarts again this summer.
When all the players go at the end of the season what has the first year achieved.

A winning plan needs money and Sisu won't put any more in.
We will pay our money next season and get the same I'm afraid.

 

[Hobo]

I could buy the 2 year plan if I saw a spine of contracted players emerging through our signings, but I don't.

We've needed a strong GK and CB and ST all season and been unable to recruit them. My concern is that Mowbray simply doesn't have whatever it takes to get a side out of L1, he's fallen foul of the same hurdles he did at previous clubs. Am happy to give him the summer and see what he does though. We're 6/7 signings off a squad at the moment and the right moves there could put us much further forward next season.

Who would you have gone out and got? I agree with you in principle, but if the player isn't available? Do you save the cash and try and patch up with loans and freebies?