WASPS Interim Accounts (14 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

Yep and it's normally Italia followed by Tony.

I purposely never bump Wasps posts but I reserve the right to my opinion when you guys do.
Usually it's some negative post about Wasps totally ignoring the actuak situation.

Similar to the 'Biggest team in Coventry' thread that you started and hit the water in flames.

 

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[skybluetony176]

I am going to bump it, before another thread is made for it. I'll be the moron!

http://coventryobserver.co.uk/news/ricoh-arena-future-uncertain-1-4m-loss-say-wasps-accounts/

You're not complaining that other people are bumping it up while bumping it up yourself so you are not a moron for that reason. You're a moron because you don't seem to be able to grasp that very simple concept though

 

[skybluetony176]

Oh dear - could be a white elephant after all.

You're probably grateful then that the council and higgs didn't burden the club with it then? Sounds like you're saying that they did the club a favour by selling it to wasps instead of us.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You're probably grateful then that the council and higgs didn't burden the club with it then? Sounds like you're saying that they did the club a favour by selling it to wasps instead of us.

JS' desire for an 'unencumbered freehold' doesn't look that bad in this light.
The ACL debt problems are all of the council's making. The original £21m loan, the refinance of £14.4m and now the hasty repayment by Wasps of that £14m (debt to pay debt, at a worse interest rate) perhaps to close off a remedy of JR defeat on the council.
That said, it's still early days for the new ACL so not getting too excited.

 

[skybluetony176]

JS' desire for an 'unencumbered freehold' doesn't look that bad in this light.
The ACL debt problems are all of the council's making. The original £21m loan, the refinance of £14.4m and now the hasty repayment by Wasps of that £14m (debt to pay debt, at a worse interest rate) perhaps to close off a remedy of JR defeat on the council.
That said, it's still early days for the new ACL so not getting too excited.

It does seem to fly in the face of the opinion often repeated on here that it was undersold. Doesn't bode well for JR2 if that ends up being about the sale price. If anything you could argue that it back's the council when they say it was the best deal for the taxpayer. Offloaded a failing business, got debt repaid in full and didn't burden the local football team with it. At least that seems to be what grendull thinks

But like you say, it's early days so nothing to get excited about.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I think that is ACL's accounts rather than Wasps.

I'm no expert, but has the loss only slightly changed from our Sixfields season?

Somebody else can process that better I can and make sense of it.

ACL were always being bankrolled by the 1.2 million they were scamming off the club every year. Not a massive surprise their is no significant difference from our sixfields season, our rent is 10% of what it used to be and I don't think Wasps would pay any rent to ACL.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

You're probably grateful then that the council and higgs didn't burden the club with it then? Sounds like you're saying that they did the club a favour by selling it to wasps instead of us.

It might yet be the case, of course.

 

[oldskyblue58]

As I have said when looking at the SBS&L/ CCFC accounts it is the Group situation that is important. Not highlighting one group member and then mixing in information from around the group

Wasps Holdings Limited shows operating losses of 2.4m. with only six months involvement in the Ricoh. The financial summary to 31/12/15 show further losses of 2.9m for the 6 mths

What the accounts do not say is that the future of the arena is uncertain. What the statement from the directors says is that they consider there are uncertainties in establishing future income and therefore bank facilities required but that they had produced budgets etc that took in to account the uncertainties as far as possible and that their conclusion was it was all a going concern. The auditors have not qualified their report at all or even mentioned any doubt about the going concern of the arena

There are of course one of costs of the move to include in the overall loss of the group to 30/06/15. What is not disclosed is the costs of the dispute with CCFC/SISU be it legals or PR or bad debts. These would be significant and bourne by ACL increasing its losses in 2014 & 2015.

How many times does it have to be explained that the value of the lease is not the value of the shares of ACL. Nor was the value of ACL pre sale including a 49year lease and no long stadium tenant the same as a valuation of ACL some months later with a 250 year lease with a secure ;ong term stadium occupation.

If the outlook is so dire then wouldnt that point to the value of ACL being next to nothing not 5.54m? and Wasps over paying ?

Cant be bothered to go through the rest of the article. It is one way of looking at it certainly but not one I think is the correct way, but thats just my opinion isnt it. Just as the article is Les Reids opinion on it

The stadium is not a white elephant and is busier than it has ever been, once everything has settled down that will be the time to judge

I agree with fp above when he says "its still early days for the new ACL so not getting too excited"

 

[Grendel]

As I have said when looking at the SBS&L/ CCFC accounts it is the Group situation that is important.

Wasps Holdings Limited shows operating losses of 2.4m. with only six months involvement in the Ricoh. The financial summary to 31/12/15 show further losses of 2.9m for the 6 mths

What the accounts do not say is that the future of the arena is uncertain. What the statement from the directors says is that they consider there are uncertainties in establishing future income and therefore bank facilities required but that they had produced budgets etc that took in to account the uncertainties as far as possible and that their conclusion was it was all a going concern. The auditors have not qualified their report at all or even mentioned any doubt.

There are of course one of costs of the move to include in the overall loss of the group to 30/06/15. Would is not disclosed is the costs of the dispute with CCFC/SISU be it legals or PR or bad debts. These would be significant and bourne by ACL increasing its losses in 2014 & 2015.

How many times does it have to be explained that the value of the lease is not the value of the shares of ACL. Nor was the value of ACL pre sale including a 49year lease and no long stadium tenant the same as a valuation of ACL some months later with a 250 year lease with a secure stadium occupation.

Cant be bothered to go through the rest of the article. It is one way of looking at it certainly but not one I think is the correct way, but thats just my opinion isnt it. Just as the article is Les Reids opinion on it

The stadium is not a white elephant and is busier than it has ever been, once everything has settled down that will be the time to judge

I agree with fp above when he says "its still early days for the new ACL so not getting too excited"

Out of interest if you exclude the main tenants is the revenue of non football / rugby revenues any different to ACL when it first opened as its now busier than its ever been?

You are obviously a very clever individual but do you really think this is a long term success in terms of profit? I've always said that I can't see it. It is in the shadow of a far superior competitor and concerts actually yield very little profit.

 

[skybluetony176]

Out of interest if you exclude the main tenants is the revenue of non football / rugby revenues any different to ACL when it first opened as its now busier than its ever been?

You are obviously a very clever individual but do you really think this is a long term success in terms of profit? I've always said that I can't see it. It is in the shadow of a far superior competitor and concerts actually yield very little profit.

Out of interest how much profit do the concerts yield?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Well as IEC forms part of the ACL Group and was hived off from ACL (a sub group of Wasps Holdings) then the turnover to compare is 21m for 2015 and the first full year of ACL it was £7m you tell me

Up until now the arena has not been driven hard or properly. Time will tell if it will indeed be consistently profitable. There have of course been annual profits reported in the past. IT is effectively a new start the past history is to a degree irrelevant.

As for competing with the NEC - not sure they seek to do that directly. I think the look for a different size of event and can do it at a better cost for clients. There is a limit to the size of event the Ricoh can put on and the NEC can not put on stadium sport events

 

[chiefdave]

Out of interest how much profit do the concerts yield?

As an extremely rough guide work on about £2 - £3 per head assuming filled to capacity. Obviously it varies a pretty large amount due to name value, location, facilities.

Of course out of that hire fee you will be expected to provide various services, stewarding for example. Some acts want a dry hire as they tour with literally everything they need, others will want stage infrastructure provided.

The revenue generators are ticket sales (which the Ricoh doesn't do as they don't have their own ticketing company) and F&B.

 

[skybluetony176]

As an extremely rough guide work on about £2 - £3 per head assuming filled to capacity. Obviously it varies a pretty large amount due to name value, location, facilities.

Of course out of that hire fee you will be expected to provide various services, stewarding for example. Some acts want a dry hire as they tour with literally everything they need, others will want stage infrastructure provided.

The revenue generators are ticket sales (which the Ricoh doesn't do as they don't have their own ticketing company) and F&B.

So basically 1 or 2 one day concerts bring in as much as a season of CCFC games? Not too shabby really.

 

[Grendel]

So basically 1 or 2 one day concerts bring in as much as a season of CCFC games? Not too shabby really.

Well no because under the old ACL we paid £1.2 million so given the cost of stadium maintenance incredibly shabby actually. The REVENUE is £50,000

 

[skybluetony176]

Well no because under the old ACL we paid £1.2 million so given the cost of stadium maintenance incredibly shabby actually. The REVENUE is £50,000

But we're not paying that anymore numb nuts so yes 1or 2 one day concerts are worth about one season of CCFC games. Might not be what anyone wants to hear but if you work somewhere in the middle of Dave's estimate per head times 30000 (40000 I believe is the Ricoh limit for open air concerts) so not even a full house that's £75k, if you work on the higher end of Dave's estimate and a full house that's £120k. Not incredibly shabby actually.

 

[Grendel]

But we're not paying that anymore numb nuts so yes 1or 2 one day concerts are worth about one season of CCFC games. Might not be what anyone wants to hear but if you work somewhere in the middle of Dave's estimate per head times 30000 (40000 I believe is the Ricoh limit for open air concerts) so not even a full house that's £75k, if you work on the higher end of Dave's estimate and a full house that's £120k. Not incredibly shabby actually.

Which on an ROI is probably at best 10%. The rent has always and is always 100% ROI as the club has to cover match day costs. Hosting events like the Davis Cup has a negative ROI

Still you clearly are the expert.

The reality is you could host 365 concerts a year but the ROI may still not be as much as rent paid for 23 days.

 

[skybluetony176]

Which on an ROI is probably at best 10%. The rent has always and is always 100% ROI as the club has to cover match day costs. Hosting events like the Davis Cup has a negative ROI

Still you clearly are the expert.

The reality is you could host 365 concerts a year but the ROI may still not be as much as rent paid for 23 days.

No expert. Just working out some figures based on what Dave said and unlike you I believe that he does have some experience in this field. Now £75-120k don't sound too shabby to me. Is it a lower GP than CCFC's season? Couldn't tell you but then by the same token you probably can't tell me either. Well not without a huge chunk of supposition and guestimated grendull "fact".

 

[chiefdave]

So basically 1 or 2 one day concerts bring in as much as a season of CCFC games? Not too shabby really.

You would get revenues not too different to a season of CCFC but you have to deduct costs whereas we pay matchday costs on top. And of course that assumes you can get market rate, its an extremely competitive market and promoters will play venues off against each other. So if for example Leicester, Villa and ACL were all in the running for the same show the price would be knocked down a lot.

 

[Grendel]

No expert. Just working out some figures based on what Dave said and unlike you I believe that he does have some experience in this field. Now £75-120k don't sound too shabby to me. Is it a lower GP than CCFC's season? Couldn't tell you but then by the same token you probably can't tell me either. Well not without a huge chunk of supposition and guestimated grendull "fact".

Do you know what ROI is and if so how do you calculate it?

 

[Grendel]

You would get revenues not too different to a season of CCFC but you have to deduct costs whereas we pay matchday costs on top. And of course that assumes you can get market rate, its an extremely competitive market and promoters will play venues off against each other. So if for example Leicester, Villa and ACL were all in the running for the same show the price would be knocked down a lot.

Lol poor Tony still he will be back to defend ACL soon. Shame he doesn't show the same passion and interest in CCFC - then again perhaps he attends the Ricoh more when CCFC are not in town.

 

[skybluetony176]

You would get revenues not too different to a season of CCFC but you have to deduct costs whereas we pay matchday costs on top. And of course that assumes you can get market rate, its an extremely competitive market and promoters will play venues off against each other. So if for example Leicester, Villa and ACL were all in the running for the same show the price would be knocked down a lot.

Thanks Dave. Of course we're not (as far as we know) paying wages and costs of running the F&B at the Ricoh but are taking a cut of the profits. So I guess there is some degree of swings and roundabouts going on. At the end of the day it's a key part of ACL's business and unlike last year there's a fair bit happening over the summer so financially it must be worth it unlike what another poster is trying to claim, otherwise they wouldn't do it and neither would anyone else.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I think I read elsewhere that certain concert promoters effectively rent the stadium for the day and sell their own food and beverage. The landlord gets a flat fee.
Not sure if that is the case with anything going on at the Ricoh, though the previous concerts didn't appear to be that lucrative.