Hobo
Well-Known Member
To quote you "have you any proof" it is a top six budget.
Top 6 Budget? (30 Viewers)
- Thread starter chiefdave
- Start date
To quote you "have you any proof" it is a top six budget.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Do you think Rotherham have one of the biggest budgets in the championship?
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Can you show me any post where I have made any claim?
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Ah, the chesterfield chairman, the "wise old man of the north" :facepalm:
Nick
Administrator
Must have said it to back SISU up.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
He lied then did he?
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
No he said it to back SISU up, Nick told me.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
No I'm saying that you are expecting the manager to over achieve if you allocate a lower than top 6 budget and expect promotion.
I know it's all statistics but if you want top 6 at least start with a top 6 budget.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Well we know we have a miles bigger budget than a team with a top 10 budget so I guess we can put the argument it's 8th to bed now.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
There's far too much emphasis being put on the size of the budget,don't understand why people
dont get it . It's not the size of the budget, it's where you start from.
If I was a melon salesman.
I have enough budget to buy 6 melons & I already have 5 melons = 11 melons .
My rival only has the budget to buy 4 melons but already has 8 = 12 melons
c'mon use your melons.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
But if the melons have a shelf life and have to be replaced every 2 weeks then it matters.
If you already have quality players you still pay them out the same budget.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
How do we know ? Sisu told us ?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
What is their budget then? What's ours?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You're saying it's Ninth then. Fair enough.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
No I'm saying we have a budget miles bigger than a team WITHIN the top 10. So Chesterfield could have the 7th biggest couldn't they?
It's funny how you and Italia spring up in unison.
Oh and for the 100th time you could have the 8th 9th or 19th biggest budget but still spend more than many other teams with bigger budgets.
Out of interest in the championship do you think Rotherham have one of the biggest budgets Tony and Italia?
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Yeah but you don't pay.
Agents fee's
sighning on fee's
and you don't pay them more than there worth, because you had to compete for there signature.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Why don't you stop being a smarmy prick by trying to set people up. You obviously have a point to make so behave like an adult and make it then maybe just for once we can have a sensible conversation.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I didn't write the article...
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
If we have the fourth highest budget and TM finishes 4th he will have just done as expected.
If he finished below 4th he under achieved above it he will have over achieved
Simple as that
Brylowes
Well-Known Member
Ask the Chesterfield chairman, he knows everything.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
Your second favourite quote that you wheel out when you go on the defensive.
Hobo
Well-Known Member
22.07.2015 skybluetony said I often wonder how SW can say it's a top six budget...and say it truthfully.
Grendel replied, the club knows all other clubs budgets so yes.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Can't remember where but I'm sure I read somewhere that teams have a view of all budgets but it is redacted so they only see amounts not teams.
Might have been Waggott who said it, there was something about it being fairly easy to work out where most teams were on the list even without them being named.
Edit: Bit of googling shows it was Waggott who talked about it. Seems clubs get a benchmarking report from the FL. Google throws up other clubs talking about it as well so doesn't seem to be something he's made up.
That would mean the club knows where are budget falls compared to others, of course doesn't mean that what they then tell us is truthful.
Might have been Waggott who said it, there was something about it being fairly easy to work out where most teams were on the list even without them being named.
Edit: Bit of googling shows it was Waggott who talked about it. Seems clubs get a benchmarking report from the FL. Google throws up other clubs talking about it as well so doesn't seem to be something he's made up.
That would mean the club knows where are budget falls compared to others, of course doesn't mean that what they then tell us is truthful.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Just googling to try a SW quote regarding this seasons budget and can't find one. The only links I can't find to him referencing a top 6 budget was with the sacking of SP when he was quoted as saying "Stephen Pressley failed to make the most of a top six budget".
When did he say we have a top 6 budget for this season?
When did he say we have a top 6 budget for this season?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
From what I understand then CCFC had a "budget" this season that was in the top 25% of all the L1 clubs
However that "budget" is just a SCMP calculation. It therefore
- is just a FL calculated limit that doesn't include all players
- doesn't mean we or any other club spend it all
- indeed if some players are excluded then the "budget" could be exceeded
- from what the FL told me then each club can negotiate to some degree what income is or isn't included
- is not just a limit for salaries but also included are benefit in kind, pension costs, loan and net transfers (in and out), agents fees etc
- In terms of running the club it is not really what makes the difference especially if the club is managed within its own income as we are supposed to be. The biggest factor is the overall budget of the business which provides how much physical cash is available to spend. That could mean that whilst we had say the 6th biggest SCMP budget we were not actually able to spend to the limit because of other costs of the business
- The SCMP budget is calculated on physical receipts including transfers and some direct costs are deducted before applying the 60%. That could mean that although Maddison was reported at being sold at 2 to 3m that if we only received 1m up front then only 1m counted this season. Also as Maddison is no longer a CCFC owned player then the costs of the loan are deducted. It may even be that the loan cost was deducted from the upfront payment
- Whilst having the biggest budget has always been a perceived indicator of success it would seem there is always exceptions eg Yeovil being promoted, Leicester 2nd in the Premiership at worst, You can make statistics say what suits you
Bottom line is that this notion of 6th best budget is largely something to hide behind, to say look how well we are doing for the club. It is not and never has been the budget that counts for running the business. the overall business budget is the one that really counts not some convenient FL calculation
However that "budget" is just a SCMP calculation. It therefore
- is just a FL calculated limit that doesn't include all players
- doesn't mean we or any other club spend it all
- indeed if some players are excluded then the "budget" could be exceeded
- from what the FL told me then each club can negotiate to some degree what income is or isn't included
- is not just a limit for salaries but also included are benefit in kind, pension costs, loan and net transfers (in and out), agents fees etc
- In terms of running the club it is not really what makes the difference especially if the club is managed within its own income as we are supposed to be. The biggest factor is the overall budget of the business which provides how much physical cash is available to spend. That could mean that whilst we had say the 6th biggest SCMP budget we were not actually able to spend to the limit because of other costs of the business
- The SCMP budget is calculated on physical receipts including transfers and some direct costs are deducted before applying the 60%. That could mean that although Maddison was reported at being sold at 2 to 3m that if we only received 1m up front then only 1m counted this season. Also as Maddison is no longer a CCFC owned player then the costs of the loan are deducted. It may even be that the loan cost was deducted from the upfront payment
- Whilst having the biggest budget has always been a perceived indicator of success it would seem there is always exceptions eg Yeovil being promoted, Leicester 2nd in the Premiership at worst, You can make statistics say what suits you
Bottom line is that this notion of 6th best budget is largely something to hide behind, to say look how well we are doing for the club. It is not and never has been the budget that counts for running the business. the overall business budget is the one that really counts not some convenient FL calculation
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
So basically OSB the actual playing budget could be above or below what's stated in the FL redacted document and also the reality is that the actual playing budget is not the same as the players wage budget so not only could our actual playing budget be lower than that stated in the FL document if things like routine maintenance of Ryton, sprucing up the team coach, setting up a scouting network from scratch and employing your backroom staff come out of it the players wage budget diminishes even more? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
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oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
"if things like routine maintenance of Ryton, sprucing up the team coach, setting up a scouting network from scratch and employing your backroom staff come out of it"
Such things have nothing to do with the player SCMP budget tony. The calculation is specific to players
The direct costs deducted are say in merchandise sales you have the sale less the cost of sale (all net of VAT) and then 60% of the net income
But yes the SCMP budget in the redacted file is just a calculated figure not what is actually spent - at least that's my understanding. The figures put out by SW/TF were at the start of the season so had to be based on a seasons calculation not a seasons actual expenditure. Have we had revised figures recently - not to my knowledge
You have to ask though did the club exceed the calculation and therefore to avoid embargo had no option but to do a deal on Maddison to balance the books?
Certainly seems in addition to that there was a need in January 2016 to repay some short term finance provided by the owner too. That would imply they had overspent their income wouldn't - otherwise they wouldn't have needed the loan surely? Owner may have been happy to authorise the overspend but if not it isn't great budgetary control especially if crowds exceeded expectation
Such things have nothing to do with the player SCMP budget tony. The calculation is specific to players
The direct costs deducted are say in merchandise sales you have the sale less the cost of sale (all net of VAT) and then 60% of the net income
But yes the SCMP budget in the redacted file is just a calculated figure not what is actually spent - at least that's my understanding. The figures put out by SW/TF were at the start of the season so had to be based on a seasons calculation not a seasons actual expenditure. Have we had revised figures recently - not to my knowledge
You have to ask though did the club exceed the calculation and therefore to avoid embargo had no option but to do a deal on Maddison to balance the books?
Certainly seems in addition to that there was a need in January 2016 to repay some short term finance provided by the owner too. That would imply they had overspent their income wouldn't - otherwise they wouldn't have needed the loan surely? Owner may have been happy to authorise the overspend but if not it isn't great budgetary control especially if crowds exceeded expectation
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Do you actually understand what the term budget means?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Thank's OSB. I had wondered that myself with the Madison sale. Might also explain the required attandence jumping from 11,500 to 14,500 best part through the season.
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skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Quite please. Adults talking.