Is the Butts deal imminent? (24 Viewers)

[Brylowes]

How will we! We are and still we be tenants to an Ex London based premier Rugby Club who are reaping the benefits of owning the Ricoh, we cannot go forward as we are!

I know we can pay £100.000 rent get 11.000 through the gate rising to 20.000 as we move
in on promotion, a little bit of F&B and no costs. Get promoted and would probably sell
10.000 season tickets for our long awaited championship return.

 

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[Samo]

Come on Samo, it's a new stadium how much is that going to cost, it's a long term thing,
if we get it wrong we are stuck long term.

Well you better hope they are going to build at BPA or elsewhere Bry, because if they don't it's game over at worst or L1/L2 for the next 10 years at best.

 

[Brylowes]

I hate how Wasps and the council worked together behind the clubs back to screw up our club for the foreseeable future.
So yes I hate Wasps for working with the council behind our clubs back, I hate the council for working with Wasps behind our back, so yes in conclusion I feel I have good reason to hate the insects and hope one day they go tits up.

If you didn't have parking revenue from wasps games would you hate what they did to our club ?
And could you please try and stop being a patronising prick when you make comments on other posters opinions

That patronising thing, don't know if you've noticed but he's not alone on here, it's the product
of a fan base at war with each other.
To beat any people get them fighting each other, divide & conquer.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

I know we can pay £100.000 rent get 11.000 through the gate rising to 20.000 as we move
in on promotion, a little bit of F&B and no costs. Get promoted and would probably sell
10.000 season tickets for our long awaited championship return.

Nah, wanna a proper football ground near the city centre not some plastic bowl which only got filled once with people on the off chance of securing a Wembley ticket (Crewe)and the Gillingham game who were nowhere to be seen the next game against Yeovil!

 

[Brylowes]

Well you better hope they are going to build at BPA or elsewhere Bry, because if they don't it's game over at worst or L1/L2 for the next 10 years at best.

If we end up there Samo,I really don't think it will be in a new stadium, could well end up there though.

 

[Brylowes]

Nah, wanna a proper football ground near the city centre not some plastic bowl which only got filled once with people on the off chance of securing a Wembley ticket (Crewe)and the Gillingham game who were nowhere to be seen the next game against Yeovil!

Ok,I love the old grounds when we go away .

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Ok,I love the old grounds when we go away .

Millwall, Walsall and Chesterfield games went to last season, all nice tidy stadiums which produced a good atmosphere, all newish stadiums too!

 

[Brylowes]

Millwall, Walsall and Chesterfield games went to last season, all nice tidy stadiums which produced a good atmosphere, all newish stadiums too!

Never been Chesterfield, Walsall is ok but didn't like millwall felt like a subbutio stadium
prefer the likes of Southend,Carlisle,Vale and Notts country proper old grounds.

 

[Gazolba]

How can you negotiate when you have no other option? It's like wanting to buy a car and there is only one car for sale on Earth. How do you negotiate the price? You can't. The seller sets the price and you take it or leave it. Sixfields, the mythical new stadium and the BPA were/are negotiating tactics, nothing more.

 

[Grendel]

I know we can pay £100.000 rent get 11.000 through the gate rising to 20.000 as we move
in on promotion, a little bit of F&B and no costs. Get promoted and would probably sell
10.000 season tickets for our long awaited championship return.

The new deal will be a lot lot more than 100,000 rent

We averaged 15,000 in our last season in the championship.

 

[Brylowes]

The new deal will be a lot lot more than 100,000 rent

We averaged 15,000 in our last season in the championship.

Yeah a terrible relegation season and still 15.000 , but besides that we have been down
now 5 seasons, a lot expected to bounce straight back.
I would think/hope with a promotion season would ramp up interest and gates.

For the record, I'm more hopeful than confident we will achieve it.

 

[martcov]

The new deal will be a lot lot more than 100,000 rent

We averaged 15,000 in our last season in the championship.

To get an average of 15000 in League 1, you need a bigger capacity than 15000. Some games will have lower than 15000 even if we're doing well.

 

[martcov]

Well you better hope they are going to build at BPA or elsewhere Bry, because if they don't it's game over at worst or L1/L2 for the next 10 years at best.

If we Commit to the BPA there is also a time factor - first problem is getting approval from Millerchip and then the board at the Rugby Club, then the council ( already shown that they can Delay things ), then the residents, then sorting the deal about possible extension out ( what if CRFC decide later that they don't want, or cannot take part in financing, an extension to 25000, but CCFC need one because of promotion? ). If we then get the architect's plans approved, we then have to builld the stadium and facilities - including a sunken pitch. How many years will that take? Then the investors will be wanting something back for their investment whatever happens - I just cannot see us not having to pay some rent. We are in trouble for at least the next 10 years whatever happens. I see the BPA as an emergency measure in case we can't get a deal with Wasps - at best. BPA certainly won't be easy and I doubt whether the capacity will ever increase over 15000, not least because CRFC don't get anything from it. Within 10 years at the BPA the argument will be we cannot compete in a 15000 stadium. Let's build a new one.., ( based on the expansion talk at other clubs with small stadia ).

 

[skybluetony176]

To get an average of 15000 in League 1, you need a bigger capacity than 15000. Some games will have lower than 15000 even if we're doing well.

What's the rule? 10% isn't it? If so with segregation that leaves something like 13K max home fans. With a good spell in this league we've already seen last season we can get 17K. With a prolonged spell or any spell of success for that matter 15K is already woefully inadequate before you even start talking about a prolonged stay in the championship or anything resembling success in the championship.

 

[italiahorse]

You don't blame the manager for spunking the agreed budget in the wrong places?

No, he had to buy those players within his 'no punt' budget.

 

[Otis]

What's the rule? 10% isn't it? If so with segregation that leaves something like 13K max home fans. With a good spell in this league we've already seen last season we can get 17K. With a prolonged spell or any spell of success for that matter 15K is already woefully inadequate before you even start talking about a prolonged stay in the championship or anything resembling success in the championship.

You also have to factor in that of playing bigger teams means bringing in bigger away followings.

It's all well and good looking at League One, but how many clubs brought big away followings to the Ricoh this season?

The bigger the club you play usually the bigger the away following and this is something we need to factor in for the future if we have any ambition whatsoever.

It's all well and good saying 15,000 is fine and we'd only have to give 10% to away fans, but if we were playing the Villa, how many thousands would they WANT to bring?

It's not all just about City fans, it's about revenue, so that obviously includes away fans too.

 

[skybluetony176]

If we Commit to the BPA there is also a time factor - first problem is getting approval from Millerchip and then the board at the Rugby Club, then the council ( already shown that they can Delay things ), then the residents, then sorting the deal about possible extension out ( what if CRFC decide later that they don't want, or cannot take part in financing, an extension to 25000, but CCFC need one because of promotion? ). If we then get the architect's plans approved, we then have to builld the stadium and facilities - including a sunken pitch. How many years will that take? Then the investors will be wanting something back for their investment whatever happens - I just cannot see us not having to pay some rent. We are in trouble for at least the next 10 years whatever happens. I see the BPA as an emergency measure in case we can't get a deal with Wasps - at best. BPA certainly won't be easy and I doubt whether the capacity will ever increase over 15000, not least because CRFC don't get anything from it. Within 10 years at the BPA the argument will be we cannot compete in a 15000 stadium. Let's build a new one.., ( based on the expansion talk at other clubs with small stadia ).

The bit about CRFC financing is interesting. Surely if they could finance the BPA development to a 15K complex they wouldn't be entertaining us? Like you say are they then going to find the finances for the extension when it's needed for CCFC considering that they'll probably never use the capacity themselves? Seems to me that is stumbling block number one in growing capacity before you even get into planning approval. If, if we move into a 15K stadium I can't see it ever being redevelop to 25K. It's all on a wing and a prayer. JS didn't exactly sell future expansion when he was talking to CRFC fans if you ask me. I suspect that they probably don't even want or need 15K but can't complete redevelopment of the BPA on there own so 15K is a compromise for them in an attempt to get CCFC on board to help fund the project.

You only have to scratch the surface to see what problems are ahead with this idea. If we're going to do it it needs to be 25K or something very close to that in the first place for me. Seems to me otherwise we're still going to be held back by a Rugby club only this time it will be in a ground that locks out paying customers and the all important ticket revenue to boot. Our teams moving forward are going to have to be based on a break even of 13K at best with all the overheads of maintaining the ground and the debt that bought us there. Doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me.

 

[italiahorse]

I hate how Wasps and the council worked together behind the clubs back to screw up our club for the foreseeable future.
So yes I hate Wasps for working with the council behind our clubs back, I hate the council for working with Wasps behind our back, so yes in conclusion I feel I have good reason to hate the insects and hope one day they go tits up.

If you didn't have parking revenue from wasps games would you hate what they did to our club ?
And could you please try and stop being a patronising prick when you make comments on other posters opinions

I hate Sisu for putting ACL/council in a position where they would have had to give the stadium to Sisu if Wasps hadn't given them another option. Sisu used our club to try and retrieve money they had lost by their bad management.
You never answered my question so I'll rephrase. Do you want to move to BPA because of Wasps even if it is not the most cost effective option?
I'm enjoying both CCFC and Wasps and making the most of a poor situation. Sisu are clueless and IMHO the only way to move on is to get the best deal we can from Wasps not continue we these pie in the sky toothless threats.
On your littl rant. If you can't take it don't dish it out.

 

[stupot07]

I hate Sisu for putting ACL/council in a position where they would have had to give the stadium to Sisu if Wasps hadn't given them another option. Sisu used our club to try and retrieve money they had lost by their bad management.

Poppycock, and that's why people get irritated by you on here. The council, acl, higgs and wasps are not blameless in this.

The council wouldn't have had to hand the stadium other to sisu if wasps had come by, that's nonsense.

And sisu would have lost shed loads of money even if they showed good management, we'd been making huge losses year on year for well over a decade before sisu came in.

And what if the best deal we can get from wasps isn't enough for us? You have a go at those that like in principle the BPA idea, but you are a 'stay at the Ricoh whatever cost'.



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[stupot07]

You also have to factor in that of playing bigger teams means bringing in bigger away followings.

It's all well and good looking at League One, but how many clubs brought big away followings to the Ricoh this season?

The bigger the club you play usually the bigger the away following and this is something we need to factor in for the future if we have any ambition whatsoever.

It's all well and good saying 15,000 is fine and we'd only have to give 10% to away fans, but if we were playing the Villa, how many thousands would they WANT to bring?

It's not all just about City fans, it's about revenue, so that obviously includes away fans too.

Tbh Otis, I don't care if villa or any other fans miss out on an away ticket.

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[italiahorse]

Poppycock, and that's why people get irritated by you on here. The council, acl, higgs and wasps are not blameless in this.

The council wouldn't have had to hand the stadium other to sisu if wasps had come by, that's nonsense.

And sisu would have lost shed loads of money even if they showed good management, we'd been making huge losses year on year for well over a decade before sisu came in.

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Never said they were blameless. Just giving my opinion on why things happened.
If Wasps had not come by what do you think would have happened to the a Ricoh.?

 

[Astute]

I would love this to happen. A stadium near the city centre would give a pub crawl on the way to games and then not far back to the city centre to celebrate the occasional win.

We would need more than a 15,000 capacity though. We might get away with it if a full stand was given to away supporters so seating isn't lost to segregation. Make this the smallest stand and use the rest of the space wisely.

SISU said that they wanted to build with a supermarket to help with costs. There isn't enough room at the Butts for this. Traffic is bad at times so this would have to be considered. Then we have the NIMBY's to consider. CCC to help with the planning?

I am all for it happening. But I just can't see it. What we could do with is being able to move in on the cheap. Wasps need every penny from us to go towards their 2.5m bond repayments and paying back the bonds. The Butts would be a good temporary home if done right. If big enough it would make a great permanent home.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

To get an average of 15000 in League 1, you need a bigger capacity than 15000. Some games will have lower than 15000 even if we're doing well.

Steady on Carol.


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[italiahorse]

Poppycock, and that's why people get irritated by you on here. The council, acl, higgs and wasps are not blameless in this.

The council wouldn't have had to hand the stadium other to sisu if wasps had come by, that's nonsense.

And sisu would have lost shed loads of money even if they showed good management, we'd been making huge losses year on year for well over a decade before sisu came in.

And what if the best deal we can get from wasps isn't enough for us? You have a go at those that like in principle the BPA idea, but you are a 'stay at the Ricoh whatever cost'.



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Sisu knew the club was loosing money when they took over. They also knew what the rent was. So what was the plan from day one ?
I suggest it was operation premiership but then when they messed that up and we slipped into L1 the Ricoh ownership was the plan.

We have no chance of getting a great deal from Wasps at the moment due to all the ongoing court battles. In fact Butts Park is on hold until they finish evidently !!

WAFWS

 

[stupot07]

Sisu knew the club was loosing money when they took over. They also knew what the rent was. So what was the plan from day one ?
I suggest it was operation premiership but then when they messed that up and we slipped into L1 the Ricoh ownership was the plan.

We have no chance of getting a great deal from Wasps at the moment due to all the ongoing court battles. In fact Butts Park is on hold until they finish evidently !!

WAFWS

We won't get a great deal from wasps anyway, it has nothing to do with the court case as that is about CCC decision, not about wasps. It has everything to do with wasps own needs and financial pressures.

All we have to do is ask...

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[The Reverend Skyblue]

I hate Sisu for putting ACL/council in a position where they would have had to give the stadium to Sisu if Wasps hadn't given them another option. Sisu used our club to try and retrieve money they had lost by their bad management.
You never answered my question so I'll rephrase. Do you want to move to BPA because of Wasps even if it is not the most cost effective option?
I'm enjoying both CCFC and Wasps and making the most of a poor situation. Sisu are clueless and IMHO the only way to move on is to get the best deal we can from Wasps not continue we these pie in the sky toothless threats.
On your littl rant. If you can't take it don't dish it out.

My answer is no I don't want to move to the Butts because of Wasps.
I want to move to the Butts because it's our only chance to put a foundations down to be an independent and prosperous football club. We will only tread water at the Ricoh imo

 

[skybluetony176]

You also have to consider that if 14.5K is the breakeven on a ground we rent for around £100K a year with none of the running costs and no extra debt from development of that site to pay for what will our breakeven be at the BPA? More than the available capacity? Sounds like the playing budget will have to take a hit to me.

 

[skybluetony176]

Tbh Otis, I don't care if villa or any other fans miss out on an away ticket.

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Me neither. But if there's only 13K available to home fans more often than not last season we'd have been turning away our own fans. Surely no CCFC fan would want to see that?

 

[torchomatic]

My answer is no I don't want to move to the Butts because of Wasps.
I want to move to the Butts because it's our only chance to put a foundations down to be an independent and prosperous football club. We will only tread water at the Ricoh imo

Halleluiah, Rev! This is exactly right. At the end of the day it is nothing to do with Wasps or anything else. It is about identity and putting down permanent roots in the centre of the city where the club has played for over 130 years.

 

[clint van damme]

Halleluiah, Rev! This is exactly right. At the end of the day it is nothing to do with Wasps or anything else. It is about identity and putting down permanent roots in the centre of the city where the club has played for over 130 years.

.

I agree, but why move to a site which pretty much condemns us to crowds of less 15,000 for decades to come? It shows lack of ambition.

I want away from the Ricoh, I don't want wasps as our landlord, but the site has to be right and I don't believe the Butts is.

If someone can come up with a plan for a bigger stadium and improved infrastructure around the Butts then I'm in but until I see evidence I don't think the site is suitable.

 

[torchomatic]

.

I agree, but why move to a site which pretty much condemns us to crowds of less 15,000 for decades to come? It shows lack of ambition.

I want away from the Ricoh, I don't want wasps as our landlord, but the site has to be right and I don't believe the Butts is.

If someone can come up with a plan for a bigger stadium and improved infrastructure around the Butts then I'm in but until I see evidence I don't think the site is suitable.

Apologies. Must have missed the bit where it was stated the capacity would be 15K for "decades to come".

 

[lewys33]

If we could build a stadium which holds 15-18k initially with guaranteed approval to up it to mimimum 25k then yes I am in.

The argument surrounding infrastructure is bollocks. How does Cardiff cope with 78k at the Millenium Stadium?? They close the roads. It is quite simple.

 

[covcity4life]

I hate how Wasps and the council worked together behind the clubs back to screw up our club for the foreseeable future.
So yes I hate Wasps for working with the council behind our clubs back, I hate the council for working with Wasps behind our back, so yes in conclusion I feel I have good reason to hate the insects and hope one day they go tits up.

If you didn't have parking revenue from wasps games would you hate what they did to our club ?
And could you please try and stop being a patronising prick when you make comments on other posters opinions

a REAL fans view on it all

 

[Grendel]

You also have to consider that if 14.5K is the breakeven on a ground we rent for around £100K a year with none of the running costs and no extra debt from development of that site to pay for what will our breakeven be at the BPA? More than the available capacity? Sounds like the playing budget will have to take a hit to me.

Why? The revenue gained by increased tickets, revenues from ground sponsors, food other activities are added on.

What has the cost of the ground got to do with anything?

What would impact the club is if there is a huge rental increase at the Ricoh which it would have to self fund and no additional revenues to bridge the gap.

 

[ricohroar]

We will never own our own ground, we may one day pay ££££'s t Sisu to rent the ground rather than wasps but CCFC will never ever own its own ground.