Nick
Administrator
The councillors will go with what the telegraph say.
I doubt the councillors actually know or give a shit. You just have to look at the way Maton bangs on like an arrogant prick.
They all get away with doing what they want.
Planning application for Higgs submitted by Wasps (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter theferret
- Start date
The councillors will go with what the telegraph say.
I doubt the councillors actually know or give a shit. You just have to look at the way Maton bangs on like an arrogant prick.
They all get away with doing what they want.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Because you would only get half the funding from the FA, and you wouldn't be able to run it like a cat 2 because we wouldn't have access to an indoor facility for year round coaching and the wasps will be using the other pitches at the higgs for their academy. A Cat 2 academy costs about £1.1m to run, the fa pay for half of it.
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Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
If you take a cynical view you might speculate that they decided they'd downgrade to cat 3 and blame someone else for the decision.
* I don't think that, I just think they cocked up, again.
Nick
Administrator
If I took a cynical view I'd say people are on here doing PR and starting rumours again.
Especially as the multiple account checker has alerted me to somebody in particular who also loves a CCFC rumour and loves the council and they never reply to my PMs asking about it.
Especially as I could tell a couple of weeks ago that something bad was going to happen purely due to the way certain people were posting on here and the silly rumours people were trying to get going.
Nick
Administrator
Exactly.
I love how the CET were all over a bring city home campaign (about a month after the trust kicked it off and it got traction) and then talk all the credit for it. They are all a bunch of smarmy dickheads.
You will have Simon Gilbert and his editor posting conspiracy gifs once you point something out, rather than answering the question.
We seem to be moving away from the point. His answer to the question was nothing is certain. You previous reply said this was spin - which this isn't.
albatross
Well-Known Member
Nick I honestly don't know. All I would suggest is that "if" SISU cannot get an agreement and elect to downgrade then they have a scapegoat, but on the flip side it will then give them less cash outflow commitments and probably more choices they still have the core staff to deliver the same outcomes and can deliver the same quality coaching . They can make the some of academy staff part time with a cat 3 set up, its not a requirement but a choice. The category system simply prescribes a minimum requirement not a maximum. So the club has all the choices to maintain an excellent facility
I think the clubs decision about staff retention will say more about SISU's intention than anything else.
Nick
Administrator
My point was in the afternoon he plays it all down, tries to give a bit of hope and then completely changes his tune in the evening.
It is exactly the same as the "come and buy the other 50% while wasps have the other" type stuff in the media then to make them look good.
hill83
Well-Known Member
It is spin.
Wasps:
"Hey guys, look, don't hate us, we will help you with an offer that won't help but don't mention that bit"
Telegraph:
"Gobble gobble"
Outcome:
"Lovely wasps, I'd take them home to my mother. Naughty Sisu. Tut tut."
Nick
Administrator
Exactly, like the Telegraph banged on about them helping the Rugby club etc etc when they move. Then the rugby club say they haven't kept any and it goes unmentioned.
All a bunch of twats, then they soon jump on the CCFC bandwagon when we get games like Crewe like they are CCFC Superfans.
They can go and film a video on their iphone in the store cupboard of themselves about that as well.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
I know the detail of the planning application was filed yesterday but the general outline was contained in Charge & Covenant registered on CAWAT when they took the site over 17/03/2016. That charge was filed and became public knowledge 18/03/2016.
CCC own the freehold, AHCT owned the 150 year lease assigned to CAWAT, Cawat own the Alan Higgs Centre and CSF operate the Alan Higgs Centre, AEHC have charged the property . The covenant details amongst other things
- a payment of £400k from CAWAT to AEHC (part repayment of original investment of £12m)
- Wasps are specifically mentioned in the document
- a premium of £150k payable to CAWAT by Wasps plus peppercorn rent for use of the site
- the area to be developed is outlined
- the actual proposal of what could be developed is outlined because AEHC has to give permission for any development on the site that CAWAT want to do
- there is Charity permission to build a swimming pool as well as the kicking barn
- there is a clause that says any disposal of interest to a party that has instigated or threatened legal action against the Charity in the previous 5 years will be vetoed
- the covenant lasts for 30 years
- the facilities must include community usage
Pretty much a done deal if you ask me with funds committed and partnerships forged - the planning application is process.
Why do I mention this - it has been on the public record for 11 weeks and yet CA raises the issue the same day as the planning application is made claiming he knows nothing and were being forced out, followed by statements from Mr Breed that are contradictory and in my opinion misleading. Both did themselves no favours yesterday. Not sure that I will place much weight on any future statements from either of them. I found the mix of the statements verbose, patronising, manipulative and misleading - nothing new there then. I find it very hard to believe that both had little or no knowledge of what was going on
Then it turns out there had been discussions between Wasps & CCFC about usage of the kicking barn by CCFC with a view to maintaining CCFC's Cat 2 status. These were repeated on CWR this morning by Mr Armstrong, (7:50 ish) saying it actually works quite well because the Wasps squad finish at 3pm and the Academy (mainly school kids) start at 5 or 6 in the evening. Apparently it is just a big indoor space (half the size of a rugby pitch) that can be used for many sports. He seemed top know all about the requirements etc for Cat 2. So there is an outline offer on the table from Wasps that should safeguard the Academy future once the development is done. Wasps it seems are prepared to work with the club to maintain the category 2 status - prospect of a partnership for a change?
What changes for the Academy. Well they would still rent facilities so they will have to pay, they would not have exclusive usage but never did in the first place and still met the Cat 2 criteria, they would lose the pitch next to the Alan Higgs centre, and another pitch would be used by Wasps - that would still leave other pitches to be used. So in reality not a lot.
Does it still leave the option to go build our own - yes. Are CCFC actually being forced out of the Alan Higgs Centre ? - doesn't seem so. Is the academy important to the club? - you would hope so certainly is to the fans. Are Wasps & CCFC prepared to commit to this? Would both commit to it long term? Would both commit to a sporting excellence partnership? What are the CCFC plans for the next 2, 5, 10, 15 years? what are CCFC or the owners prepared to commit to? - because it is about time they committed to something
There is as yet no planning application for the pool but the head leaseholder has agreed to its potential build. So until it is built the current indoor facilities remain and could well overlap with the kicking barn.
The grounds for challenging this planning application on an existing sports site with reasonable infrastructure around it are very limited in my opinion
I think it would be wise to press all sides on this including CCFC and to keep doing so, demand proper answers from all of them. . As often is the case things are never so clear cut as might seem. It looks like there are solutions it just depends who is prepared to pick them up and run with them
Final thoughts. But before I make it, I believe and always have that the Academy is vital to CCFC's future and that it must be protected at all costs. If that means protesting, challenging, fighting for it then lets do it. However lets make sure we are challenging the right people - that seems to be CSF, Wasps, CCC and importantly given the above CCFC. But say the planning is rejected, then CSF gets permission on the pool is the future of CCFC academy more secure or not?
Really wish we didn't even have to consider any of this. One more thing to add to the long and ever growing messes that CCFC gets embroiled in
CCC own the freehold, AHCT owned the 150 year lease assigned to CAWAT, Cawat own the Alan Higgs Centre and CSF operate the Alan Higgs Centre, AEHC have charged the property . The covenant details amongst other things
- a payment of £400k from CAWAT to AEHC (part repayment of original investment of £12m)
- Wasps are specifically mentioned in the document
- a premium of £150k payable to CAWAT by Wasps plus peppercorn rent for use of the site
- the area to be developed is outlined
- the actual proposal of what could be developed is outlined because AEHC has to give permission for any development on the site that CAWAT want to do
- there is Charity permission to build a swimming pool as well as the kicking barn
- there is a clause that says any disposal of interest to a party that has instigated or threatened legal action against the Charity in the previous 5 years will be vetoed
- the covenant lasts for 30 years
- the facilities must include community usage
Pretty much a done deal if you ask me with funds committed and partnerships forged - the planning application is process.
Why do I mention this - it has been on the public record for 11 weeks and yet CA raises the issue the same day as the planning application is made claiming he knows nothing and were being forced out, followed by statements from Mr Breed that are contradictory and in my opinion misleading. Both did themselves no favours yesterday. Not sure that I will place much weight on any future statements from either of them. I found the mix of the statements verbose, patronising, manipulative and misleading - nothing new there then. I find it very hard to believe that both had little or no knowledge of what was going on
Then it turns out there had been discussions between Wasps & CCFC about usage of the kicking barn by CCFC with a view to maintaining CCFC's Cat 2 status. These were repeated on CWR this morning by Mr Armstrong, (7:50 ish) saying it actually works quite well because the Wasps squad finish at 3pm and the Academy (mainly school kids) start at 5 or 6 in the evening. Apparently it is just a big indoor space (half the size of a rugby pitch) that can be used for many sports. He seemed top know all about the requirements etc for Cat 2. So there is an outline offer on the table from Wasps that should safeguard the Academy future once the development is done. Wasps it seems are prepared to work with the club to maintain the category 2 status - prospect of a partnership for a change?
What changes for the Academy. Well they would still rent facilities so they will have to pay, they would not have exclusive usage but never did in the first place and still met the Cat 2 criteria, they would lose the pitch next to the Alan Higgs centre, and another pitch would be used by Wasps - that would still leave other pitches to be used. So in reality not a lot.
Does it still leave the option to go build our own - yes. Are CCFC actually being forced out of the Alan Higgs Centre ? - doesn't seem so. Is the academy important to the club? - you would hope so certainly is to the fans. Are Wasps & CCFC prepared to commit to this? Would both commit to it long term? Would both commit to a sporting excellence partnership? What are the CCFC plans for the next 2, 5, 10, 15 years? what are CCFC or the owners prepared to commit to? - because it is about time they committed to something
There is as yet no planning application for the pool but the head leaseholder has agreed to its potential build. So until it is built the current indoor facilities remain and could well overlap with the kicking barn.
The grounds for challenging this planning application on an existing sports site with reasonable infrastructure around it are very limited in my opinion
I think it would be wise to press all sides on this including CCFC and to keep doing so, demand proper answers from all of them. . As often is the case things are never so clear cut as might seem. It looks like there are solutions it just depends who is prepared to pick them up and run with them
Final thoughts. But before I make it, I believe and always have that the Academy is vital to CCFC's future and that it must be protected at all costs. If that means protesting, challenging, fighting for it then lets do it. However lets make sure we are challenging the right people - that seems to be CSF, Wasps, CCC and importantly given the above CCFC. But say the planning is rejected, then CSF gets permission on the pool is the future of CCFC academy more secure or not?
Really wish we didn't even have to consider any of this. One more thing to add to the long and ever growing messes that CCFC gets embroiled in
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hill83
Well-Known Member
It will only go to committe if the objections fall within the necessary criteria.
A hundred people submitting comes along the lines of "This is a stitch up and Higgs/CCC should hang their heads in same as CCFC's Academy will be lost" doesn't mean it will be brought before the committe.
It's still not spin. He's been a dick - but it's not spin.
hill83
Well-Known Member
If you are correct and we would keep our cat 2 status with their offer I retract my previous comments.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Spot on. Stop the short termism!
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Agreed
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by that hill?
Nick
Administrator
So what do we do then? Any ideas how we can fight it or do we just go all out to try and put all of the blame on CCFC?
hill83
Well-Known Member
Saving myself time. In the past when I've mentioned something that doesn't mention Sisu in a bad light it gets brought up and discussed. Wasting valuable gif finding time.
Similar to now.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
We continue to arrange the challenges to all sides, demonstrate if necessary, but at the same time somebody like the SBT needs to "mediate" to get the decision makers at the Alan Higgs Centre to talk and see what can be agreed to safeguard the CCFC academy
At no point did I say give up and at no point did I say it was all CCFC's fault. What is important is the Academy and a solution long term
At no point did I say give up and at no point did I say it was all CCFC's fault. What is important is the Academy and a solution long term
Colin Steins Smile
Well-Known Member
This sorry situation is a reflection of the breakdown in relationships between all the parties.
CCFC along with Wasps are both important revenue generators for Coventry & Warwickshire region. Wasps are clearly investing hard cash into Coventry, hence any landlord or property developer will always be interested in realising this. CCFC are struggling for hard cash to invest, BUT has significant potential to generate new income into Coventry IF/When they are successful.
A potential solution is:
* A strategic plan for sport in Coventry covering 8 years that focuses on the role sport can play in the economic regeneration of the city. Attached to this would be concessions and seed funding to develop the necessary infrastructure. This would need REAL PARTNERSHIP working and resources being committed from all parties. This would include land, workforce and cash plus a robust business plan - not the usual pie in the sky projections!
Given the increased funding that can be realised in both Football & Rugby this is a good time to pursue this.
The problem - the dreadful state of relationships between the parties.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
The line about the local charity not allowing interest to be disposed basically writes off CCFC having any interest in the centre.
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
But there was supposed to be a fresh start with 'new blood' on both sides. Someone is still pulling the strings on both sides which is very worrying as a change of council leader and new people on the council side along with CA coming in don't seem to have changed anything at all.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Someone needs to get clarification from the FA. You say ccfc don't get exclusive use, but do you know whether if ccfc need it that non-ccfc bookings are cancelled? Do ccfc get primacy? What about those 16-18 year olds thah have left school? Have you ever been down on a Saturday morning when all the pitches are in use. Losing 2 pitches, and probably the main 2 pitches will have a big impact on the academy. What about wasps academy? Won't they want yo use the facilities? Won't most of theirs be school age and only use it in the evenings?
I feel wasps are spinning this.
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chiefdave
Well-Known Member
That will be the key. I doubt the FA are saying when the football club isn't using it nobody else can. What they are saying is when the football club need it they get it.
What happens when the inevitable happens and Wasps move their academy here? Will the evening hours no longer be available?
eastwoodsdustman
Well-Known Member
As far as I know the Academy had sole use of the Bottom pitch with the 3g at the top being open for public use when not needed by the Academy. I think that the Academy would have 'first dibs' on the indoor pitch too.
Senior Vick from Alicante
Well-Known Member
If Wasps have said they have no problem with the acadamy staying their then sod the council and the higgs. We need to be talking to wasps to make sure any agreement is equal to what we have now and they include specefics in their plan that have to be included to keep the status of the acadamy. Sisu will be continually fucked over by CCC and the Higgs until they leave the City, their fault not ours though. Theirs too much bad blood for this all to be resolved, I only want my club to survive until we czn rise again.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Just to clarify and amend
AEHC have a charge over the property which secures community use, CCC own the freehold, AHCT owned the 150 year lease now assigned to CAWAT, CAWAT now own the Alan Higgs Centre and CSF operate the Alan Higgs Centre,
AEHC have a charge over the property which secures community use, CCC own the freehold, AHCT owned the 150 year lease now assigned to CAWAT, CAWAT now own the Alan Higgs Centre and CSF operate the Alan Higgs Centre,
olderskyblue
Well-Known Member
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Question - Do we look for long term solutions to the Academy, pressure decision makers to solve it or do we just say lets moan complain, look for reasons why not then give up ?
There is nothing mentioned above that is not possible of being solved for the overall benefit of the Academy. Might take compromise on both sides but it is doable
Was once told "I don't do compromise I tell people what I want" - it doesn't work
Surely our role is to pressure all sides to get this sorted out whether that's at the current site or elsewhere - failure to solve this is not an option
There is nothing mentioned above that is not possible of being solved for the overall benefit of the Academy. Might take compromise on both sides but it is doable
Was once told "I don't do compromise I tell people what I want" - it doesn't work
Surely our role is to pressure all sides to get this sorted out whether that's at the current site or elsewhere - failure to solve this is not an option
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Thats what we should be doing however some people seem to prefer to deflect attention away from some parties and point the finger at SISU. Does nothing to resolve the issues.
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
Pursue the offer with Wasps.
As I have said before the indoor pitch can be used in the evenings when Wasps have gone.
We usually get kicked off at 6pm for the academy.
There are plenty of outdoor pitches available (Wasps nicking 2 of them). The outdoor astro turf pitch is still available.
It could work and certainly gives the academy an option if the swimming pool does go ahead.
Worse case scenario is the Wasps application gets turned down and the swimming pool goes ahead.