Andy Thorn talks utter bollox (6 Viewers)

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Cheers Jack, I was going to mention Doyle, Carsley and McIndoe too. That right there is a hefty chunk of wages that were not reinvested in a couple of experienced pro's to make us competitive.

 

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[Otis]

I agree the squad isn't good enough, been saying that from day one. The fact is though we are just 6 points behind 4th from bottom and AT has made errors that have cost us points. Therefore i don't see how anyone can say we wouldn't be any better off with someone else in charge. That is just crazy.

We would still struggle. Have no doubt about that, but we could most certainly be out of the bottom 3 places at the moment.

 

[stupot07]

And we could also have been 6+ points better off if it weren't for stupid individual errors like jukes penalty miss, bigi and bakers red cards, sammy stupid pass on Saturday and murphy's sometimes dodgy keeping (e.g palace),etc

 

[oldskyblue58]

stupot07 i agree with your comments recently about quality think you are right (although there is more to it ) but dont you think that every team, manager and player makes mistakes and can equally point to that for justification of a better points tally or league position? Its the mistakes that actually make the game interesting and a talking point. The fact is mistakes happen, and right now we are where we deserve to be.

 

[Otis]

And we could also have been 6+ points better off if it weren't for stupid individual errors like jukes penalty miss, bigi and bakers red cards, sammy stupid pass on Saturday and murphy's sometimes dodgy keeping (e.g palace),etc

But if Clingan makes a misplaced pass you can drop him for the next game. Most certainly you would if he'd made a few errors wouldn't you. We cannot afford for the manager to make a number of mistakes on top of all the individual errors.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Cheers Jack, I was going to mention Doyle, Carsley and McIndoe too. That right there is a hefty chunk of wages that were not reinvested in a couple of experienced pro's to make us competitive.

NLHWC i want investment in the team as much as the next man but just wondered where exactly we invest these losses (notice i didnt say cash)saved ? We slashed the wages but it didnt actually put anything in the pot to spend unless you accept that football clubs should be run at a big loss. Did the owners provide more(any) investment money for new players nope, but spending revenue we do not have makes the situation worse. This whole thing has been going wrong for years, to a degree it is unfair that AT is getting the flack, but he wouldnt have been manager had the finances been dealt with properly, he would have been what he is truly good at - chief scout

 

[sky blue john]

To many people on here looking to make AT the scapegoat and are blinded if they think we would be sailing up the table by just changing the manager !!!!!!!!!
I suppose I can't blame a lot of you for just being sheep thats how football has changed over the years nowadays a run of bad results = sack the manager crys !!!!!!!
Last season we finished 18th with our current squad + MK, Westwood, Gunnar, Doyle, Turner, Carsley, Mcindoe fact. Six of these players would be in our starting eleven today.
So why on earth do people think we should be further up the table than we currently are ?

 

[stupot07]

But if Clingan makes a misplaced pass you can drop him for the next game. Most certainly you would if he'd made a few errors wouldn't you. We cannot afford for the manager to make a number of mistakes on top of all the individual errors.

But that's the point Otis, we can't drop players because our squad isn't big or strong enough. There's little competition for places. We drop sheffers and bring in baker, we drop Cody we bring in platt, we drop clingan then it would be either bigi or Thomas....

Deegan has been in and out the side but he's basically missed 2 season's worth of football give or take 5-10 games. Ideally we'd send him out on loan for a month to get fit, sharp, etc, ditto McPake.

I'm also certain that some player have been playing with niggles in particular bell and sheffers and that thorns has been reluctant to start wood the last few games in case he gets injured again.

 

[covcity4life]

And we could also have been 6+ points better off if it weren't for stupid individual errors like jukes penalty miss, bigi and bakers red cards, sammy stupid pass on Saturday and murphy's sometimes dodgy keeping (e.g palace),etc

so now your saying were not that bad???

and hey nonleagueherewecome,we cant be that bad,after all we have gail brigimana and gary deegan midfield partnership to keep us going, you made out they were xavi/insiesta level a few months back...

BTW this is the first time i have ever looked into thorn leaving,so dont throw me into some "manager out fools" bracket, were coming into december and i think a manager change could be required,doesnt mean i am anti thorn,ill back him all the way whilst hes still manager

 

[Sky Blue Sheepy]

No-one should be saying we'll fly up the table with a different manager. However to avert all blame away from Thorn is equally stupid - i.e. it's hard to deny his changes and the timing of them, are baffling at times. Unfortunately that comes with inexperiance. He could well become a good manager. I seem to remember rating the late Gary Speed (unfortunately his name is the one I tend to use to make my point) very lowly when he was Sheff. Utd manager and now look where Wales are. People can improve, but Thorn isn't in a position to have the time needed.

We don't have a half bad team - not top half certainly but individually a lot of them are not League 1/Championship relegation zone players.

Murphy is doing well recently, Keogh is looking great - regardless of who he's playing with, he didn't lose a single header vs Cardiff and rarely misses a tackle, Juke's turning into a good forward (adding the goals to his game even if not prolific yet). Clingan, for example, is meant to be the crux of our team with deadly balls forward but we don't see it. Even Cody McDonald has shown previously that he cando the business in the 6 yard box, but we're not playing him that way, if he gets match time at all!

You telling me those players are League 1 standard or lower?

 

[Otis]

To many people on here looking to make AT the scapegoat and are blinded if they think we would be sailing up the table by just changing the manager !!!!!!!!!
I suppose I can't blame a lot of you for just being sheep thats how football has changed over the years nowadays a run of bad results = sack the manager crys !!!!!!!
Last season we finished 18th with our current squad + MK, Westwood, Gunnar, Doyle, Turner, Carsley, Mcindoe fact. Six of these players would be in our starting eleven today.
So why on earth do people think we should be further up the table than we currently are ?

Nowt like a bit of exaggeration is there!! :facepalm: Who on earth has said we would be sailing up the table? This season is going to be difficult whoever is in charge. Don't think anyone would disagree with that. AT is not a scapegoat. people have supported him and backed him. As he has made mistakes however they have questioned him and some of those mistakes may well have cost us points. This is something we can ill afford.


"So why on earth do people think we should be further up the table than we currently are ?"

For the eleventy billioneth time AT has made mistakes. A different manager not making those same mistakes would more than likely meant a higher league position. The Blackpool game at home was a shocker in terms of AT naivety.

 

[covcity4life]

Nowt like a bit of exaggeration is there!! :facepalm: Who on earth has said we would be sailing up the table? This season is going to be difficult whoever is in charge. Don't think anyone would disagree with that. AT is not a scapegoat. people have supported him and backed him. As he has made mistakes however they have questioned him and some of those mistakes may well have cost us points. This is something we can ill afford.


"So why on earth do people think we should be further up the table than we currently are ?"

For the eleventy billioneth time AT has made mistakes. A different manager not making those same mistakes would more than likely meant a higher league position. The Blackpool game at home was a shocker in terms of AT naivety.

no no mate, anyone who thinks a different manager could get different results is deluded

wacky we are!

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

NLHWC i want investment in the team as much as the next man but just wondered where exactly we invest these losses (notice i didnt say cash)saved ? We slashed the wages but it didnt actually put anything in the pot to spend unless you accept that football clubs should be run at a big loss. Did the owners provide more(any) investment money for new players nope, but spending revenue we do not have makes the situation worse. This whole thing has been going wrong for years, to a degree it is unfair that AT is getting the flack, but he wouldnt have been manager had the finances been dealt with properly, he would have been what he is truly good at - chief scout

Well why did the board promise the same budget as last season? Listen: they have budgeted to fail. They are the least supportive owners of a club in our division. I base this on us having the lowest wage budget. Are we the smallest club in the division? No. How come Barnsley et al can afford to "blow us out of the water"?

 

[stupot07]

so now your saying were not that bad???

and hey nonleagueherewecome,we cant be that bad,after all we have gail brigimana and gary deegan midfield partnership to keep us going, you made out they were xavi/insiesta level a few months back...

BTW this is the first time i have ever looked into thorn leaving,so dont throw me into some "manager out fools" bracket, were coming into december and i think a manager change could be required,doesnt mean i am anti thorn,ill back him all the way whilst hes still manager

No I'm not saying we're not that bad, I'm saying that our current plight is as much to due with the lack of quality as it is about Thorn's tactics.

 

[Otis]

It's a combination of both. The one thing we can change however is the manager.

 

[covcity4life]

No I'm not saying we're not that bad, I'm saying that our current plight is as much to due with the lack of quality as it is about Thorn's tactics.

noone can do anything about missed pens,bad keeping(the reason i didnt mention westy is that murphy has done well in last 2 months)

conceding so many late goals however is something a manager could look to fix be it putting 5 at the back or just working on mental strength speeches etc

im not saying i hate thorn,i like him and considering how close we have come so far this season i can still believe he could be the man to keep us up too, but right now i wouldnt mind if we opted for someone else as AT isnt delivering and as others have mentioned above the squad isnt the only reason we are losing

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

no no mate, anyone who thinks a different manager could get different results is deluded

wacky we are!

That's not what I said: I said anyone who thinks we are only missing King is deluded.

Don't make like the put-upon minority, the vast majority are shouting "Thorn out". I consider this typical of football fans-as soon as a team is stuggling, it's "blame the manager". Lots of people have admitted that they've "given up" on AT, that he had their backing but no longer.. I'd at least give him next season to see if he can get us back up, ideally under new ownership, of course.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

If everyone finished in the table where there squads suggest they should be then why do we bother playing the games?
This squad is poor but is still punching below its weight and is not a 13 point in 19 squad, Alan Pardew has shown at Newcastle what a good work ethic and spirit can do at a club. Newcastle do not have the greatest of squads with respect to there current position.
Something should have changed tactically after we had 7 points from 10 games or whatever it was.

 

[sky blue john]

No-one should be saying we'll fly up the table with a different manager. However to avert all blame away from Thorn is equally stupid - i.e. it's hard to deny his changes and the timing of them, are baffling at times. Unfortunately that comes with inexperiance. He could well become a good manager. I see to remember rating the late Gary Speed (unfortunately his name is the one I tend to use to make my point) very lowly when he was Sheff. Utd manager and now look where Wales are. People can improve, but Thorn isn't in a position to have the time needed.

Two points to make.
Firstly the position that we are in is not down to one person which is what you are implying. Because the owners and players have to take some responsibility.
Secondly Thorn's decision making. We have a very small squad and at any one time we don't know which players are carrying injuries. We are not privi to this sort of info and rightly so. I should imagine most games we have players playing with knocks and people on the subs bench with injuries that he wants to avoid playing unless he thinks its absolutely necessary. What I am saying he has to make decisions that may seem odd to us with out all the facts.

 

[covcity4life]

im not in any thorn out brigade mate,im still supporting him and the boys

just since brighton(not all season,im the optimist usually,read my previous posts) im looking into possible slutions to our problems and as someone said above,the manager can be changed,right now the squad cant.

 

[covcity4life]

If everyone finished in the table where there squads suggest they should be then why do we bother playing the games?
This squad is poor but is still punching below its weight and is not a 13 point in 19 squad, Alan Pardew has shown at Newcastle what a good work ethic and spirit can do at a club. Newcastle do not have the greatest of squads with respect to there current position.
Something should have changed tactically after we had 7 points from 10 games or whatever it was.

well said that man

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I also don't agree with the "mistakes" view. The majority of these "errors" are substitiutions, which later turned out to be injured players (Cody, Hussey, Deegan not fit enough to come on, etc). You can claim he's been wrong according to your opinion, but there is no factual basis for this claiming of "mistakes".

 

[CUS Wyken]

I also don't agree with the "mistakes" view. The majority of these "errors" are substitiutions, which later turned out to be injured players (Cody, Hussey, Deegan not fit enough to come on, etc). You can claim he's been wrong according to your opinion, but there is no factual basis for this claiming of "mistakes".

I'll give you a few facts.

23d in the league having played one more then our rivals
16 goals in 19 games
6 points adrift from safety
2 wins all season

All the above are facts and this is a results business regardless what spin you put on it. Something needs changing and if that means brining in someone new then so be it and let Thorn carry on doing he's best at. Scouting.

 

[sky blue john]

If everyone finished in the table where there squads suggest they should be then why do we bother playing the games?
This squad is poor but is still punching below its weight and is not a 13 point in 19 squad, Alan Pardew has shown at Newcastle what a good work ethic and spirit can do at a club. Newcastle do not have the greatest of squads with respect to there current position.
Something should have changed tactically after we had 7 points from 10 games or whatever it was.

2007/08 21st
2008/09 17th
2009/10 19th
1010/11 18th
CCFC finishing positions over the last four seasons when previous managers had a budget and were able to invest in the squad !!!
I rest my case !!!!!!!!

 

[Otis]

What about the clear mistake against Blackpool?

AT clealy said in his post match interview that Blackpool did a few things he wasn't expecting and said in particular that long raking ball over the back of the full backs. The Blackpool BBC commentator clear openly said to CWR pre game that Blackpool play this same tactic every single game and had been doing this every game throughout the season. I recall him clearly saying "without doubt Blackpool will try this tonight."

Think they did it about 6 times and then after they scored from this tactic Thorn then changed his own tactics to try and combat it. Massive mistake and it may well have cost us 2 points.

 

[Otis]

2007/08 21st
2008/09 17th
2009/10 19th
1010/11 18th
CCFC finishing positions over the last four seasons when previous managers had a budget and were able to invest in the squad !!!
I rest my case !!!!!!!!

How is that resting any case? Madness. So if we finish bottom 3 no matter how bad a manager Thorn proves to be and even if he shows himself to be totally clueless he won't be at fault because the team results match the same pattern as of other seasons? :facepalm:

 

[CUS Wyken]

Love it. Now we are demanding the return of the long ball despite the fact that our best long ball strikwer has left the club (Marlon King) and Clive Platt is having a good season without the long ball....

Anything else we'd like AT to try for us? How about that old magic trick where the opposition disappears?

God he's trying everything, but we just aren't good enough.

He's trying everything? Are you sure? He's tried the diamond formation and erm............... thats it! He's been in charge of 30 odd games now and thats all hes done and thats resulted in 5 wins. (Including his so called honeymoon period)

 

[sky blue john]

I'll give you a few facts.

23d in the league having played one more then our rivals
16 goals in 19 games
6 points adrift from safety
2 wins all season

All the above are facts and this is a results business regardless what spin you put on it. Something needs changing and if that means brining in someone new then so be it and let Thorn carry on doing he's best at. Scouting.

Good facts and can't argue with any of them !!!!!
Who are Sisu going to bring in that they can afford and improve our current league position without squad investment ??????????

 

[CUS Wyken]

Good facts and can't argue with any of them !!!!!
Who are Sisu going to bring in that they can afford and improve our current league position without squad investment ??????????

Its called bringing out the best in what you've got thats what been a manager is all about and Thorn's not bringing out the best of the players and its down to the tactics. The players we have are not right for the diamond. He needs to find a formation which suits our players.

 

[stupot07]

He's trying everything? Are you sure? He's tried the diamond formation and erm............... thats it! He's been in charge of 30 odd games now and thats all hes done and thats resulted in 5 wins. (Including his so called honeymoon period)

He's also played, 4231, 433 and 442 in games.

 

[Otis]

Good facts and can't argue with any of them !!!!!
Who are Sisu going to bring in that they can afford and improve our current league position without squad investment ??????????

They bring someone in who instills a never say die attitude amongst the playing staff. They bring someone in who works on the shocking lack of movement in the team. They bring someone in who gets the team to play as a unit instead of under these tactics of massive gaps between the front two and the midfield.

Yes, said previously, it will be a struggle this season whatever, but there are undoubtedly things we could change to improve our chances.

 

[sky blue john]

Its called bringing out the best in what you've got thats what been a manager is all about and Thorn's not bringing out the best of the players and its down to the tactics. The players we have are not right for the diamond. He needs to find a formation which suits our players.

Which is ?

 

[CUS Wyken]

He's also played, 4231, 433 and 442 in games.

How many games and how long for? 20 mins here and there. Nothing for a sustained time.

 

[Otis]

Which is ?







Would guess that CUS Wyken not having worked with the players in training every day he won't have the answer.

You would expect a manager to have though.

 

[CUS Wyken]

Which is ?

Im not paid to be manager but certainly ditch the diamond and use wing backs 3-5-2 or a 5-3-2 which ever way you wanna look at it. Most of our goals come from the full backs.