chiefdave
Well-Known Member
They might have to have another meeting and change the rules again!
RIP Labour (15 Viewers)
- Thread starter Grendel
- Start date
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Half a million members and 200,00 registered supporters, didn't know there were so many 'trots' about.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I knew there would be a big campaign to deselect the sitting MP's, here it comes...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
Labour split imminent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
Labour split imminent.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I quite like Corbyn but I'm not sure this was the best choice of example:
This, he said, will highlight the extent to which female, disabled and BME workers remain unfairly treated 40 years on from the Equal Pay Act.
"Last year Britain was ranked 18th in the world for its gender pay gap, below Nicaragua, Namibia and New Zealand," he said. "We can and must do better. So Labour is calling time on the waiting game."
Not sure New Zealand would be too happy been lumped in with Nicaragua and Namibia!
This, he said, will highlight the extent to which female, disabled and BME workers remain unfairly treated 40 years on from the Equal Pay Act.
"Last year Britain was ranked 18th in the world for its gender pay gap, below Nicaragua, Namibia and New Zealand," he said. "We can and must do better. So Labour is calling time on the waiting game."
Not sure New Zealand would be too happy been lumped in with Nicaragua and Namibia!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Tony had better cancel his visa application.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
I am a would-be Labour voter. I agree with a lot of what Corbyn says but Labour's focus is too much on perceived marginalised or minority groups. It forgets about the bulk of its voters.
Whilst Labour was in government it had a stab at addressing equal pay, which in the end caused as many problems as it solved. Some Labour voters working for councils saw their pay drastically cut for example.
Whilst Labour was in government it had a stab at addressing equal pay, which in the end caused as many problems as it solved. Some Labour voters working for councils saw their pay drastically cut for example.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
What the UK needs now is a prolonged period of Conservative government to manage Brexit and set solid foundations for business growth.
That sort of critical management is way beyond the capabilities of any Labour administration, let alone one headed by the feeble Corbyn.
Under his leadership Labour are little more than a protest group.
That sort of critical management is way beyond the capabilities of any Labour administration, let alone one headed by the feeble Corbyn.
Under his leadership Labour are little more than a protest group.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
What you mean is a prolonged Conservative government to ensure that any financial benefits of being out of the EU are directed to where they should be - namely the offshore bank accounts of the rich and powerful.
Meanwhile the majority suffer on.
W
westcountry_skyblue
Guest
I'm a floating voter but could never vote for Corbyn/McDonnell because of their links with terrorist organisations.
He also wants rid of a deterent for Great Britain.And is also an anti monarchist.
I think Ukip will take a lot of seats off them if there is a snap election too.
He also wants rid of a deterent for Great Britain.And is also an anti monarchist.
I think Ukip will take a lot of seats off them if there is a snap election too.
oakey
Well-Known Member
Corbyn is about direct democracy and creating a grassroots movement to pressurise authorities of all kinds into change. He and his set don't really believe in parliamentary representative democracy. The Labour Party was formed a century ago to gain and exercise power through parliament to bring about change for working people. Until the Labour members understand what this Labour Party was formed for and is about this nonsense will continue. May I suggest some interesting reading ...
http://www.democraticaudit.com/?p=23471
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/jeremy-corbyn-john-mcdonnell-interview-election-2015-labour-party-674
https://allthewordspastthemarginblo...on-corbyn-and-the-future-of-the-labour-party/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/24/soft-left-labour-splinter-party
http://www.democraticaudit.com/?p=23471
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/jeremy-corbyn-john-mcdonnell-interview-election-2015-labour-party-674
https://allthewordspastthemarginblo...on-corbyn-and-the-future-of-the-labour-party/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/24/soft-left-labour-splinter-party
oakey
Well-Known Member
oakey
Well-Known Member
Ian, that is a version of, "they would say that, wouldn't they?"
Which shuts down genuine debate, which in turn leads to a bunker mentality. It is the unwillingness to accept any criticism or compromise that epitomises extremism. The only ways of changing the current system are through parliament or revolution. I have spoken to dedicated Corbynites who admit, when pushed, that they have little faith in the parliamentary route to power and think a form of revolution to paraphrase them, "Maybe what is needed."
This is an existential struggle for the left. The past suggests the parliamentary route is the better way. Maybe the world has changed enough for hundreds of thousands to rise up, but I doubt it.
Which shuts down genuine debate, which in turn leads to a bunker mentality. It is the unwillingness to accept any criticism or compromise that epitomises extremism. The only ways of changing the current system are through parliament or revolution. I have spoken to dedicated Corbynites who admit, when pushed, that they have little faith in the parliamentary route to power and think a form of revolution to paraphrase them, "Maybe what is needed."
This is an existential struggle for the left. The past suggests the parliamentary route is the better way. Maybe the world has changed enough for hundreds of thousands to rise up, but I doubt it.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
People are fed up with politics - the perception for many thousands is that it only benefits the elite few and the masses have to fall in line and take it. The EU vote was a massive two fingers to the current political setup.
Whether you like or dislike Corbyn or his ideas the truth is that he has invigorated a group of people into having some engagement back into politics. The demographic make up of this group is not clear, but it's unlikely to be previously traditional Labour voters. But all we are told through the media that he is 'unelectable', a terrorist sympathiser and goodness knows what else. This inaccurate reporting is just as likely to push people into a mentality that you describe, as you are telling them that their feelings and opinions are worthless.
If the media repeatedly tell enough people that he is unelectable - more and more will vote for him to prove the system wrong. IMO for Corbyn to win he has to go out and target those that can but don't vote, there is far more of those than traditional Labour supporters that may drift off to UKIP etc.
If people are serious about replacing Corbyn then they need to really examine what it is he has done to push party membership through the roof. Then they need to engage those people and show them that they can also deliver on these ideas. To brush this off as secret Tory infiltration is a slap in the face of every person that has finally said they want to be part of the political arena.
Eagle and Smith have so far only shown that their main policy is to not be Corbyn. It hardly bodes well for them.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Absolutely this. I don't think Corbyn will be PM as it would need a virtually unprecedented swing, which given the way the media treats him is virtually impossible.
What is possible is a change in politics. Corbyn takes Labour back to the left, we now have May and a cabinet which is further to the right. Those towards the centre, both Conservative and Labour, can form their own party, or a revamped Lib Dem.
Some of the fringe parties could be absorbed. Greens have indicated a willingness to work with Labour under Corbyn. UKIP could be absorbed by a more right wing Conservatives. Lib Dem swallowed up by a centrist party.
If at the end of this we end up with three parties of pretty much equal size with distinct policies that would be a huge win in my book.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
People are far more comfortable now than when the Labour Party was formed, the very idea that there will be some sort of revolution is nonsense. It would be good to reform the democratic institutions, but to do so would first require a more radical majority to be elected to Parliament, can't even see that happening any time soon.
oakey
Well-Known Member
Ian, I think you make some fair points. It will take some time to see whether these new members are genuinely committed to changing politics for the better or a mixed bunch of anarchists, trots, greens etc who will slope off if they cannot remake the Labour Party into a protest movement of their liking. I fear that if they win the battle against the moderates they will start infighting as these groups have very different agendas in reality. With regard to the younger, more idealistic new members I fear that some do not understand how parliamentary systems work and don't have any real ideas how to change it short of vague social media type campaigning.
As regards the media, yes, Corbyn has received negative press, but so do all Labour leaders. He brings a lot of it on himself with his shambolic modus operandi and his quiet but brutal version of I'm right, you're wrong.
His opponents have not played their hand very well but they were in a panic when it looked like Boris would be PM and would call a snap election. My main requirement of a new leader would be that they resign if there were a no confidence vote. If they would not they are unfit to lead.
We keep hearing he is a man of principle. I think a man of principle would have done a deal to stay in the shadow cabinet but nominate a leader that could unite the party. If he remains the left will be out of power for a decade or two.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
They simply don't realise how they are being manipulated.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Really? In what way are 33 million suffering?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
People are struggling. This government have overseen a huge transfer of wealth. Those at the top are getting richer faster while everyone else is left to fight over scraps.
Wages are stagnant, food bank usage is at record levels, the slowest economic recovery since records began.
Its not exactly going well.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
How wreckless of them
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
There are plenty around, from my observations made up mostly of two groups: nasty jealous hardline union leaders full of hate and naive idealist graduates.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Which year do you live in? This bears no resemblance to the 2016 Tory party.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Why? Have they got worse?
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Keep telling yourself that....
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Since the recession the richest 1,000 people in the UK have doubled their wealth. For the rest of us we've had the biggest decline in wages, 7% when you allow for inflation.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
The politics of envy.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
I've done far more than that. I've reassessed everything and thought for a very long time over months. The modern Tories have the middle ground absconded by labour.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
The only reason they appear to have the middle ground is because that's what the right wing press tell us. The Tory machine has pushed the NHS to breaking point, turned the welfare system into a joke and destroyed the education hopes of every child not in the independent sector. Young people growing up have nothing to aspire and strive for... It's all been taken away by the 'middle ground' Tories.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
You forget that the middle ground is what's being abandoned all around the world. A far left alliance are in power in Greece, the far right took the Austrian election to the wire, trump in America and Le Pen in France plus the socialists in South America. Politics is drifting to the extremes and Corbyn's policies are not any where near as extreme as these. People accept the dogma that you win elections by moving to the centre ground but the supposedly centre ground conservatives have a majority of 12, 12! 5 million people voted for radical parties in UKIP and the greens last year, if Corbyn got in half of those to the Labour party without attracting one conservative voter he'd force a hung parliament in which the arithmetic would not favour a conservative government.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
UKIPers are going back to the Torys, Liberal popularity is creeping up, Labour is slipping.
May is popular (we'll see if that lasts but she hasn't put a foot wrong yet & this Owen Smith guy sticks his foot in his gob as soon as he opens it).
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
Not so for me, I don't believe anything I read without questioning. I'll reply more about young people shortly. I agree they are getting a bad deal but disagree on the cause.
mrtrench
Well-Known Member
OK Ian, I have a few moments now to reply properly.
I don't buy all this "believe what I'm told to believe" nonsense. There are certainly many who think like this but I'm not one of them - a) I'm a floating voter and choose my vote carefully every time b) I'm cynical of everything and think it through for myself. So, point accepted but not relevant in this case. And the question is: Is the Tory Party a centralist one?
We can all point at things that need improvement and you choose the NHS and young people. I'll address both of these in due course. However my main point is that we have to look at the whole in order to make broad categorisations like this. Is the Tory party trying to do good for the whole population? I think it is; you may not agree with their approach - that's your prerogative - but I think that they are trying:
- Large scale tax reforms to stop the middle/wealthy avoiding tax. Examples: Buy to Let tax changes; Dividend Tax reform.
- Addressing big business tax avoidance. For the first time a UK government is taking on the Googles and Amazons and forcing them into a position to pay UK tax. This isn't a new problem - Labour had plenty of opportunities to address this and did nothing.
- Corporation Tax reduction. Interesting one this... their philosophy is that by reducing corporation tax it will bring more companies and more taxable revenue to the UK. It will also bring more jobs which may typically be lower income. Again you may disagree with the method but their intention is clear.
- National Living Wage. Again interesting - it's about the best way to bring greater wealth across the population which is debatable but again the intention is clear. The Tories are trying to make work far more attractive than benefits. If they can get more people into work it reduces government expenditure and may actually lead to greater tax revenue - allowing further tax cuts and more investment.
- HS rail and greater investment in the North. This is a very long term game but a genuine attempt to even out the wealth across the country.
The choice between a more centralist Labour and Conservatives is now one of the better way to achieve equality of opportunity. Do we tax high and give money out or do we tax low, provide opportunities and coax people into doing what is better for themselves and their families?
Now to pick up your two points:
- The NHS. An emotive point and a problem re funding for a very long time - this is not an issue that is unique to this term or the last. I can see that they have increased funding; set up a new NICE sub-committee to try and get more effective drugs available; facing up to the unions to try and get a full 7 day service (and compromised to the satisfaction of negotiators only to be rejected at the vote). These are all in intent positive moves. In my opinion some party at some time needs the balls to fully address the inefficiencies in this organisation but the Tories are shying away from it as did Labour presently. But doubtless if they ever do the unions will again flounce about and people will use it as a stick to beat them with - but it is what needs to be done. I write from personal experience when my Mum has been ill and also from a close family member who works in the NHS.
- Young people. I think that the plight of young people is almost entirely the fault of Labour and the EU. 1) It has become almost mandatory for anyone with ambition to go to university and to gain debts of £50k for the privilege. It was Labour that expanded higher education and introduced loans. I don't think it's appropriate for people to have a degree in tourism; hotel management; media studies... it's the kind of training that should be covered by paid apprenticeships and the Tories are pushing this agenda. I'd also prefer a graduate tax if we must charge for education as it spreads the cost more fairly. More to come from the Tories on this I'm sure. 2) House prices are obscene and that's driven by supply and demand. Free movement has seen 350k net immigration pa - driving up demand at a pace that we cannot (and don't want to) meet with new builds.
However, compared to almost everywhere else in the world our young people still have it good - youth unemployment is way lower than almost everywhere else as is our economy. It's all very well stating that things could be better - that's always true. But when we look at how the UK has performed since 2010 it's far better than most and that puts it into perspective.
For me, one of the major differences between the far left and the centre is one of temperament. The left is always so bloody negative about everything: everything is crap; there is a psychological need to blame everything on the Tories and be negative. However I prefer to judge things as they really are: we can always improve but how are we doing against what is practically possible? Ignoring the hatred, which party is actually doing something to help?
I don't buy all this "believe what I'm told to believe" nonsense. There are certainly many who think like this but I'm not one of them - a) I'm a floating voter and choose my vote carefully every time b) I'm cynical of everything and think it through for myself. So, point accepted but not relevant in this case. And the question is: Is the Tory Party a centralist one?
We can all point at things that need improvement and you choose the NHS and young people. I'll address both of these in due course. However my main point is that we have to look at the whole in order to make broad categorisations like this. Is the Tory party trying to do good for the whole population? I think it is; you may not agree with their approach - that's your prerogative - but I think that they are trying:
- Large scale tax reforms to stop the middle/wealthy avoiding tax. Examples: Buy to Let tax changes; Dividend Tax reform.
- Addressing big business tax avoidance. For the first time a UK government is taking on the Googles and Amazons and forcing them into a position to pay UK tax. This isn't a new problem - Labour had plenty of opportunities to address this and did nothing.
- Corporation Tax reduction. Interesting one this... their philosophy is that by reducing corporation tax it will bring more companies and more taxable revenue to the UK. It will also bring more jobs which may typically be lower income. Again you may disagree with the method but their intention is clear.
- National Living Wage. Again interesting - it's about the best way to bring greater wealth across the population which is debatable but again the intention is clear. The Tories are trying to make work far more attractive than benefits. If they can get more people into work it reduces government expenditure and may actually lead to greater tax revenue - allowing further tax cuts and more investment.
- HS rail and greater investment in the North. This is a very long term game but a genuine attempt to even out the wealth across the country.
The choice between a more centralist Labour and Conservatives is now one of the better way to achieve equality of opportunity. Do we tax high and give money out or do we tax low, provide opportunities and coax people into doing what is better for themselves and their families?
Now to pick up your two points:
- The NHS. An emotive point and a problem re funding for a very long time - this is not an issue that is unique to this term or the last. I can see that they have increased funding; set up a new NICE sub-committee to try and get more effective drugs available; facing up to the unions to try and get a full 7 day service (and compromised to the satisfaction of negotiators only to be rejected at the vote). These are all in intent positive moves. In my opinion some party at some time needs the balls to fully address the inefficiencies in this organisation but the Tories are shying away from it as did Labour presently. But doubtless if they ever do the unions will again flounce about and people will use it as a stick to beat them with - but it is what needs to be done. I write from personal experience when my Mum has been ill and also from a close family member who works in the NHS.
- Young people. I think that the plight of young people is almost entirely the fault of Labour and the EU. 1) It has become almost mandatory for anyone with ambition to go to university and to gain debts of £50k for the privilege. It was Labour that expanded higher education and introduced loans. I don't think it's appropriate for people to have a degree in tourism; hotel management; media studies... it's the kind of training that should be covered by paid apprenticeships and the Tories are pushing this agenda. I'd also prefer a graduate tax if we must charge for education as it spreads the cost more fairly. More to come from the Tories on this I'm sure. 2) House prices are obscene and that's driven by supply and demand. Free movement has seen 350k net immigration pa - driving up demand at a pace that we cannot (and don't want to) meet with new builds.
However, compared to almost everywhere else in the world our young people still have it good - youth unemployment is way lower than almost everywhere else as is our economy. It's all very well stating that things could be better - that's always true. But when we look at how the UK has performed since 2010 it's far better than most and that puts it into perspective.
For me, one of the major differences between the far left and the centre is one of temperament. The left is always so bloody negative about everything: everything is crap; there is a psychological need to blame everything on the Tories and be negative. However I prefer to judge things as they really are: we can always improve but how are we doing against what is practically possible? Ignoring the hatred, which party is actually doing something to help?