CCFC Statement - Hmmmm, really? (11 Viewers)

[mexico88]

Please, don't be fooled so easily. Its a very smart PR move, with an aim of making us fans look like we're moaning at nothing - and that they have the clubs best interests at heart!

That slime ball snake is still destroying us long term.

Kens gone as far as he can with taking the club to lowest operational cost - now he'll do one final bit of wheeling and dealing in the January transfer market (Big players out for £'s players with 'on paper' potential brought in for peanuts) - and then SISU will re-evaluate the options available for exit.

It's all about maximising 'potential' value!

Here's why...

Firstly, there's always someone who wants to buy a football club for £1 (And inherit the debt - very few clubs actually cease)

So the choices of a football club owner are:

1) You can sell it for £1 because its rotten inside out and as the owner - you're almost personally broke

-OR-

Smart money says - If you still have some cash of your own to keep the thing going...

2) You can turn it into an opportunity - polish it up and sell it for £1 with 'written agreements'

The way I see it - SISU's original plan A failed: 'to find investment-in-partnership' 12 mths ago (when they we're running short of budgeted funding agreed by the fund managers)

So they revert to plan B

1. Strip assets
2. Make the books look nicer (Near to balanced)
3. Show potential for new owners (Low crowds play right into their hands by the way as the new owners are enticed by the promise of the returning crowds when SISU exit and the squad gets investment.)

Sort of like "If you do XYZ, you could make a mint"

Potential is what it's all about - why do you think they are trying so hard to get an agreement to buy into the ground? They don't want to buy it (They don't have the money in the budget anyway), they want to add it to the potential.

Result of plan B:

• Business looks like it has bags of potential for any buyer with the ability to invest money.
• Sell for £1
• Agree terms of "If you make it into profit - we want £x back in instalments/lump sum
• if the agreement is right - they stand a good chance of getting a profit on their original investment if someone manages to run it properly and get to the promised land

So watch out folks....

My guess is that they will keep trying to find someone who will buy into their terms of sale... Bad news is, I think that means Hoffman either has to agree to them - or they will just 'wait' for someone new - despite dropping divisions along the way. The more we drop - the easier it will be for them to balance the books.

Just my opinion before people start pulling it to threads!

 

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[ICHAN]

Excellent post mexico88 makes a lot os sense.
Polish an old penny and make it nice and shiny for the magpies.

 

[WillieStanley]

very well thought out!

 

[oldskyblue58]

Agree with some, you sell anything then you maximise the potential to any prospective investor/purchaser (unless it is a "need" commodity ..... this clearly is not). No great mystery just basic salesmanship

You get the item in the best state you can in order to get the best price..... in this case get the finances better.... again nothing underhand. The only way anyone will take CCFC on is if the finances are improved.

The idea works for acquiring the ground if indeed there had been any meaningful discussions recently ..... there have not.

However it isnt nor has it ever been a problem about selling for £1. The value to SISU funds are the £30m loans they have put in and those wont be given up for a £1 plus written agreements

SISU are no different to anyone else. Same as you and me any sale we make we want on our terms

SISU must realise that CCFC are unlikely ever to make serious enough profits to make a decent return on £30m. Yes in theory there is bags of potential but many have said that and decades of proof have never realised it - investors look at history aswell as future.

Not knocking your opinion mexico88 just see it differently in my opinion

 

[mexico88]

very well thought out!

Nice reply OSB.

Just an opinion as I say...

However, I would argue that giving up £30m loans for £1 and a written agreement is good business and likely to be something SISU ARE looking for.

My Reasoning: If you can't get the business to break even (Which it would appear to be the case for SISU - correct me if I'm wrong) - those loans are going to continue to grow at a pretty cost with no realistic light at the end of the tunnel - i.e; We're not going to all of a sudden develop 'championship winning style improvement on the pitch, without adding to the resource - so no return any time soon.

All the cuts have done is slow the loan amount down - they haven't made us become a viable business model all of a sudden.

Probably better put like this: It doesn't matter how much one pumps in... it's worth what its worth.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Agree with some of whats being said, however, I think they are looking for more than £1 plus additional sums at a later date (the impression I got was that Hoffman may have offered this already). Im guessing SISU may well be taking money out the club in wages/fees and therefore why walk away from that until you have to ? (ie run out of money to cover the losses). There are still players to sell to fund these losses.

 

[shmmeee]

I think the rub lies in the details of the deferred payment of the loans.

I believe the repayment terms offered were time limited to 3 years by Hoffman. If that's the case then even SISU can't be thick enough to take that, as it'd take at least 2 seasons to turn this club around, then we'd just have to wait a year and get off scott free.

I think some level of buy now pay later will be probable. Maybe pay a certain amount each year for 10 years, but that amount goes up if/when we go up in that period. Question is would Hoffman or anyone else want to take those terms on>

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think the rub lies in the details of the deferred payment of the loans.

I believe the repayment terms offered were time limited to 3 years by Hoffman. If that's the case then even SISU can't be thick enough to take that, as it'd take at least 2 seasons to turn this club around, then we'd just have to wait a year and get off scott free.

I think some level of buy now pay later will be probable. Maybe pay a certain amount each year for 10 years, but that amount goes up if/when we go up in that period. Question is would Hoffman or anyone else want to take those terms on>

Agreed but they probably want a few quid now as well (wouldnt be surprised if its somewhere in the region of £5m as thats possibly the value you could put on the playing staff)

 

[Moff]

Polish an old penny and make it nice and shiny for the magpies.

Or in our case polish a turd, and make it look like a SISU run buisness, and get sh*t on your cloth.

 

[Mexico70]

Nice work No.88 :wave: - extra marks for formatting and use of bullet points

Captain Ken, SISU's weapon of mass destruction, has now moved on to his next phase.

"So Ken, what exactly will you be doing as Head of Football Operations?"
Ken: "Well, basically I'm heading up the January sales"

It's going to get worse before it gets any better

No. 88 you really are the Susan Boyle of Sky Blues Talk - on appearance, you'd never think that you could craft such a well thought through post.

 

[blueflint]

get real sisu wont sell without getting their money back :blue::blue::blue:

 

[CCFCSteve]

There is no way they will get all their money back

 

[shmmeee]

Agreed but they probably want a few quid now as well (wouldnt be surprised if its somewhere in the region of £5m as thats possibly the value you could put on the playing staff)

I actually don't think they do. I think the money making plan here is to add interest to the loans when they leave. If you think of them as loan sharks then the strategy makes sense and like any loan shark the last thing they actually want is the debt paid off, they want a nice big debt accruing interest.

They then get to continually hold the threat of admin (or a kneecapping in the loan shark analogy) over the person owing the money.

 

[wingy]

I actually don't think they do. I think the money making plan here is to add interest to the loans when they leave. If you think of them as loan sharks then the strategy makes sense and like any loan shark the last thing they actually want is the debt paid off, they want a nice big debt accruing interest.

They then get to continually hold the threat of admin (or a kneecapping in the loan shark analogy) over the person owing the money.

And when you take that to its natural conclusion ,you'd have to be mental to take it ,Leaving them holding the baby for a considerable period ,have said it all season ",Fucking vandals"

 

[georgehudson]

Ccfc statement hmmmm really?

smoke & mirrors,
your business future looks bleak,
f.o.s.
PUSB

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Agree with some, you sell anything then you maximise the potential to any prospective investor/purchaser (unless it is a "need" commodity ..... this clearly is not). No great mystery just basic salesmanship

You get the item in the best state you can in order to get the best price..... in this case get the finances better.... again nothing underhand. The only way anyone will take CCFC on is if the finances are improved.

The idea works for acquiring the ground if indeed there had been any meaningful discussions recently ..... there have not.

However it isnt nor has it ever been a problem about selling for £1. The value to SISU funds are the £30m loans they have put in and those wont be given up for a £1 plus written agreements

SISU are no different to anyone else. Same as you and me any sale we make we want on our terms

SISU must realise that CCFC are unlikely ever to make serious enough profits to make a decent return on £30m. Yes in theory there is bags of potential but many have said that and decades of proof have never realised it - investors look at history aswell as future.

Not knocking your opinion mexico88 just see it differently in my opinion

Y'see, I think the whole "balance the books" thing is entirely unrealistic-especially given how we've been set up with overheads for a Premiership club, rather than a L1/L2 club. The further we get from the top flight, the more entrenched our financial problems will become. No matter how much you cut, until you are paying just youth team wages, this club will lose money. Stadium/matchday revenue streams are part of it, not to mention the rent, the low gates (gonna get much lower yet!), merchandising sales, loss of TV revenues, etc.

The "expert" on CWR last night said that it is "a given" that owners of a football club will lose money on it. Bill Kenright said 2 months ago on Radio 5 Live "You don't buy a football club to make money. Take it from one who knows". So the entire premise of SISU owning a football club is totally flawed. If you do want to make money out of football, it's by raising your profile, atracting big sponsorhip, and getting big TV monies, league position prize money, etc. If you don't speculate, you have zero chance of accumulating. Sure, you may fail if you spend, but if you don't, you almost certainly will.

Not only are we the only club above L1 who have "given up", rather than spend at least a reasonable level in order to be competitive, but we're the one where the owners have the gall to call it "a loan", rather than simply accept that it's money that THEY HAVE LOST. If you invest in something and it goes wrong, there is no fairy godmother to bail you out. But because of the way SISU have structured their loan (LOSSES), they are in a win-win situation. As far as they're concerned, they aint lost nothing, nor can they ever. It's just an IOU. Pretty unrealistic and deluded! But that's why Ken keeps calling SISU "the bank", as he did yet again yesterday in his CWR interview. Almost like if he says it enough, he'll use his Magic Orange Mind Trick on us and convince us it's true! Why oh why Eakin didn't ask him to explain this fuuny little turn of phrase I just don't know...

You won't make money out of CCFC the way SISU are managing it. There's a reason why every other single club at our level has spent more than we have in the last 18 months, and it isn't because we are the smallest club. But the OP has a great point-they might just make some money, if they can dress this dog's dinner up as something with potential in the future. I guess the phiosophy is "with something this broken, the only way is up!" I'm pretty sure that their legacy will be a broken and unsalvagable lower league club, very much akin to Bradford City.

 

[TheParsonsHose]

Excellent post mexico88 makes a lot os sense.
Polish an old penny and make it nice and shiny for the magpies.

Agreed good post....another saying though is "You cannot polish a turd"

 

[@richh87]

Very good post NonLeague. I really hope the Bradford City comparison doesn't come true, but I fear you may be right.

The protests really need stepping up - they're pathetic.

 

[oldskyblue58]

You see NLHWC there is no reason why a small or medium size club cannot breakeven, the problem with that premise is expectation. However the task is made almost impossible to gain that and success whilst there is not a level playing field between the clubs. Whilst it is acceptable to make £11m losses paying £15m in wages at the likes of Bristol then we cannot compete whilst taking the strategy we do. In reality such teams compete in a false position because if run properly as a business they couldnt afford the players they have and if in the real business world would have gone out of business. Like it or not football is a business run by businessmen who leave their brains on the doorstep when they walk into the stadium. That we blandly accept that football clubs lose money and investors have no/little chance of a return simply highlights the stupidity of it all.It is not a justification for success or lack of it. There is plenty of hot air spoken about football finance, far too much acceptance of this is how it is and sod all will to actually do something to sort out a very flawed system.

I really do not understand why there is such acceptance of such a poor framework where loss is just a fact of life. It is accepted hardly questioned and backed up by experts that simply say thats the way it is. Put that attitude into any other industry and see how far you get. Its about time "experts" started looking at better ways to run clubs, think outside the box, Its about time chairmen began thinking in terms good business rather than a black financial hole. They put our clubs at risk through lack of will and sense - simply unacceptable

If as I hope they do, the HMRC win their case about special football debt provisions then I think there might be a little more reality brought to board rooms. If , as I hope but have no faith in, the fair football finance rules come in then that will also help bring a different financial reality to the whole football league. We accept too much and challenge little, its about time it changed

You see in the end all this debt comes home to roost ..... with everyone not just a clubs supporters. When the HMRC get shafted by non payment of tax by a club then that is money out of everyones pockets why? because the "investors" in football leave all sense a reason on the doorstep.

As for SISU people make a lot of assumptions attributing feelings/thinking that they dont actually have proof for. The fact is they have a loan of money that still exists. They are in the same position as nearly every other investor in a football club. They all put the money into a club as a loan because that gives them a possibility of getting money out. I don't call that investment to me its a loan. Do SISU expect all their money, we all presume so but we dont know. Can they get it all out, I seriously doubt it but there is a figure in settlement they would consider....... that is more than zero otherwise they might as well call in the administrators now and stop the losses because thats what they would get by doing so.....£nil We as fans tend to concentrate on the personalities. Often ignoring what is actually known

Like any business investment is vital. However in no other business is the value of such investment so careless, It isnt about investment its about the right investment at the right value. A concept that few football clubs are very good at understanding.

Of course SISU are dressing the club up to look the best it could......... who wouldnt. Of course they want to maximise what they get out of it....... who wouldnt. They made mistakes long ago and will pay for it in £s but we may well pay for those mistakes with our club. However the mistakes are not just SISU's plenty of others share in that including some held out as saviours. Joint & several liability its called

You know I do not support SISU NLHWC, never have, but the financial pain is necessary to save some sort of a club..... anyone coming in is going to have to deal with it ..... and I bet their "investment" will be by way of loans. Are there options to increase funds? yes but folk need to be creative in thinking (not dodgy or risky). The problems with SISU are well documented what is needed for the good of football and our club is a complete change to a realistic business model with realistic expectations for all clubs - SISU or not i am not holding my breath that will happen

Do I want SISU out - yes. Do i think they have helped create this mess - yes. I want a deal for them to go...... realistically that will mean paying them something but i bet it wont actually be the full amount.

 

[singers_pore]

Y'see, I think the whole "balance the books" thing is entirely unrealistic-especially given how we've been set up with overheads for a Premiership club, rather than a L1/L2 club. The further we get from the top flight, the more entrenched our financial problems will become. No matter how much you cut, until you are paying just youth team wages, this club will lose money. Stadium/matchday revenue streams are part of it, not to mention the rent, the low gates (gonna get much lower yet!), merchandising sales, loss of TV revenues, etc.

The "expert" on CWR last night said that it is "a given" that owners of a football club will lose money on it. Bill Kenright said 2 months ago on Radio 5 Live "You don't buy a football club to make money. Take it from one who knows". So the entire premise of SISU owning a football club is totally flawed. If you do want to make money out of football, it's by raising your profile, atracting big sponsorhip, and getting big TV monies, league position prize money, etc. If you don't speculate, you have zero chance of accumulating. Sure, you may fail if you spend, but if you don't, you almost certainly will.

Not only are we the only club above L1 who have "given up", rather than spend at least a reasonable level in order to be competitive, but we're the one where the owners have the gall to call it "a loan", rather than simply accept that it's money that THEY HAVE LOST. If you invest in something and it goes wrong, there is no fairy godmother to bail you out. But because of the way SISU have structured their loan (LOSSES), they are in a win-win situation. As far as they're concerned, they aint lost nothing, nor can they ever. It's just an IOU. Pretty unrealistic and deluded! But that's why Ken keeps calling SISU "the bank", as he did yet again yesterday in his CWR interview. Almost like if he says it enough, he'll use his Magic Orange Mind Trick on us and convince us it's true! Why oh why Eakin didn't ask him to explain this fuuny little turn of phrase I just don't know...

You won't make money out of CCFC the way SISU are managing it. There's a reason why every other single club at our level has spent more than we have in the last 18 months, and it isn't because we are the smallest club. But the OP has a great point-they might just make some money, if they can dress this dog's dinner up as something with potential in the future. I guess the phiosophy is "with something this broken, the only way is up!" I'm pretty sure that their legacy will be a broken and unsalvagable lower league club, very much akin to Bradford City.

This is probably the most accurate assessment I have read on this board. If SISU think they are going to break even in League 1 or League 2 they are seriously deluded.

 

[singers_pore]

You see NLHWC there is no reason why a small or medium size club cannot breakeven.

OSB: I normally like your posts but I have to pull you up on this one. Can you name me how many clubs in League 1 or League 2 that are breaking even. The simple fact is that they are nearly all making losses. SISU may think they can break even by paying League 1 wages but if so they are going to have a serious wake up call next season when TV revenues decline massively and crowds are down to 8,000.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

OK but why are we the only club in our division doing it such an extreme? Because we are the only club with owners who have no emotional attachment to the club?

 

[oldskyblue58]

OSB: I normally like your posts but I have to pull you up on this one. Can you name me how many clubs in League 1 or League 2 that are breaking even. The simple fact is that they are nearly all making losses. SISU may think they can break even by paying League 1 wages but if so they are going to have a serious wake up call next season when TV revenues decline massively and crowds are down to 8,000.

read the rest of the post. The way that clubs are currently run then no they wont. There needs to be a sea change in how clubs are run. If run as proper business not as an extension of ego then it would be possible. The Football League and the various club directors make a choice not to run a viable model. I didnt say there were clubs that are breaking even I said there is no reason they cant ...... they wont because everyone seems to accept a very flawed business model

 

[singers_pore]

read the rest of the post. The way that clubs are currently run then no they wont. There needs to be a sea change in how clubs are run. If run as proper business not as an extension of ego then it would be possible. The Football League and the various club directors make a choice not to run a viable model. I didnt say there were clubs that are breaking even I said there is no reason they cant ...... they wont because everyone seems to accept a very flawed business model

I'm afraid you are looking at things from an accountant's / business perspective. Fact is that most owners buy clubs for vanity reasons, not because they expect to break even. Thus, if you have an owner that wants to break even (e.g., SISU) you are destined to plummet down the league. Presumably that's not what you and everyone else want. So why back an owner who says they want to break even? Simples. We need to find someone who is willing to support the club financially a la most of the other 92 clubs in the league.

 

[oldskyblue58]

OK but why are we the only club in our division doing it such an extreme? Because we are the only club with owners who have no emotional attachment to the club?

because the alternative is administration. We seem to be the only ones going so aggressively at cost saving I agree. They are trying to redeem serious mistakes in investment when they took over I think. I dont think it is not brilliant financial management, I think they have been pretty short sighted all along. Given my own business expertise I find it all very frustrating !

 

[oldskyblue58]

I'm afraid you are looking at things from an accountant's / business perspective. Fact is that most owners buy clubs for vanity reasons, not because they expect to break even. Thus, if you have an owner that wants to break even (e.g., SISU) you are destined to plummet down the league. Presumably that's not what you and everyone else want. So why back an owner who says they want to break even? Simples. We need to find someone who is willing to support the club financially a la most of the other 92 clubs in the league.

If you accept that the current staus quo it is the way to go yes. Thats why i said the whole system has to change. One club doing it just seems that one club gets to pay the price whilst others "succeed" on increasing debt and poorer viabilty. Wont ever get what I want because no one has the balls to push it through for all clubs

BTW i dont know any serious money people that enjoy losing money even for their ego.

 

[singers_pore]

BTW i dont know any serious money people that enjoy losing money even for their ego.

I do!

I agree that in a Nirvana world, every club would try to turn a profit. But that has never happened in football. Read the history of CCFC and you will see that we were losing money in nearly every period except the late 1960s. Our financial difficulties were most acute in the old 3rd division which is where we are now heading.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

because the alternative is administration. We seem to be the only ones going so aggressively at cost saving I agree. They are trying to redeem serious mistakes in investment when they took over I think. I dont think it is not brilliant financial management, I think they have been pretty short sighted all along. Given my own business expertise I find it all very frustrating !

It's not though, is it? Because the vast majority of money owed (they say owed, for all the other clubs it's lost) is to SISU themselves. So we won't, nay can't, go into administration. The whole way it's been structured to make the owners bullet-proof means that we are denied the one normal route for wiping the slate clean and rebuilding. It's largely their mistakes which they are trying to rectify, the biggest one of which was buying us then withdrawing funding only 12-18 months into a venture that needed a lot of it to succeed.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I do!

I agree that in a Nirvana world, every club would try to turn a profit. But that has never happened in football. Read the history of CCFC and you will see that we were losing money in nearly every period except the late 1960s. Our financial difficulties were most acute in the old 3rd division which is where we are now heading.

Exactly, Singers-football is a game you lose money from usually, not make it, and you don't ever make it the way SISU are trying to. It's a money pit, not an investment. No wonder they can't attract new "investment" the way they run their business! They're trying to sell the L1/L2 dream, every other club looking for a buyer will be selling the "potential prem" dream.

 

[oldskyblue58]

yep their plan was flawed from the start seriously underestimating the funds required specifically for players. Was obvious to many very soon after but they didnt control their investment.

Maybe not likely but Administration remains a possibility because if cash dries up they cant pay bills that could lead to it. They would walk away with the training ground if that happened. Currently they have to feel they could do a deal somewhere that would give them more than that so keep going. As you have said they have sunk their funds (still a loan) so their max loss is known they have to feel they can significantly reduce that by keeping going and selling on

 

[oldskyblue58]

bottom, line is we are in a big big hole and i dont actually see a way out with SISU or to be honest GH.......... It is completely depressing

(the matches are becoming embarrassing not just depressing)

 

[singers_pore]

bottom, line is we are in a big big hole and i dont actually see a way out with SISU or to be honest GH.......... It is completely depressing

(the matches are becoming embarrassing not just depressing)

On that, I think we are all agreed .... unfortunately:facepalm:

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

On that, I think we are all agreed .... unfortunately:facepalm:

Indeed. Ironically, under SISU, the bottom line is...the bottom line! My old retail Area Manager used to love that joke...