What do you think is the end game ? (8 Viewers)

[italiahorse]

What are you basing this on? Why do we have little chance of promotion?

For crying out Dave, wake up and smell the coffee.
We are relying on luck, kids, loans and we won't start until September.
However feel free to stuff this post in my face come May.

 

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[ccfcway]

There is no endgame. Drift along with no investors prepared to fund anymore. The club is virtually separate from its portfolio anyway.

It's got zero attraction to new owners. No ground probably soon no academy and a council who have never been helpful whoever has owned the club

Nothing will happen for the foreseeable future. No money is being taken out (there isn't any) it's only staying alive by sales funding the non playing side.

this. Its like owning a house in negative equity, your not going to sell it at a loss, just keep it, keeping paying the mortgage and hope one day it will go up in value

 

[clint van damme]

ive never been and i never will and never mention them - no interest in them at all. Have a season ticket for CCFC though. I dont complain when a competitor competes though as that is the nature of business. Do you not think those uber capitalists in charge of CCFC can cope - poor things and I thought they were tough and had a long term plan other than to waste other peoples money and fuck up CCFC. Maybe not or you can explain why you think they have done such a good job.

are you asking me why I think SISU have done a good job? In a post where I have said I'm anti SISU?

So now, if you have a jibe at london wasps you're pro SISU even if you have said you're anti SISU in the same post? Priceless!

 

[singers_pore]

this. Its like owning a house in negative equity, your not going to sell it at a loss, just keep it, keeping paying the mortgage and hope one day it will go up in value

Have you never heard of foreclosures? There are lots of houses sold in negative equity.

 

[chiefdave]

We are relying on luck, kids, loans and we won't start until September.

We're a L1 team, that's what happens in L1. Its not like every other team has a squad of 30 experienced pros. Swindon played Connor Thomas in defence for christ sake.

 

[harvey098]

In answer to the original title - it's Scunthorpe away

 

[dongonzalos]

I think the original game plan was quick promotion to Premiership and double your money.

I think then they lost the financial investors to continue with that strategy. I think they were then heading towards walking away and cutting their loses.

I think they then sought advice and someone pointed out that ACL depended on them. That if they didn't pay rent to ACL eventually ACL would go bust or they could pick it up for a very good price. Once they have ACL and the club combined. ACL will instantly increase in value. Especially once the club is tied to ACL long term. They then sell the combined business for far more than they bought it for. Recouping a large chunk of their losses and walking away.
To achieve this I think they ran two strategies firstly stop the club running at a loss and make it pay for itself. So they don't have to fund it and it's is more viable fur a sale.
Secondly drive down the price of ACL.

Regarding the first aim I think relegation helped with this as costs (wages) fell yet the drop in crowds was probably covered by the reduction in wages and reduction in rent.
I think they have gone a good way to achieving towards the first aim and making the club self funding,

The second aim got blown out of the water when another buyer be cane available for ACL.

The fall back solution to the failure of aim number two, is the legal action and compensation.

To still be in charge of the club whilst it earns them nothing and potentially may cost them something. For me this had to be related to the legal action. I can only think it somehow affects the level of compensation.

Of course all of the above is just my opinion and I don't have a clue what their aims and objectives are.

 

[Hobo]

We're a L1 team, that's what happens in L1. Its not like every other team has a squad of 30 experienced pros. Swindon played Connor Thomas in defence for christ sake.

And they kept a clean sheet and won

 

[ccfcway]

Have you never heard of foreclosures? There are lots of houses sold in negative equity.

not ones who are backed by investors who can offset the loses

 

[Deleted member 5849]

To still be in charge of the club whilst it earns them nothing and potentially may cost them something.

You also have to remember the cost in isolation can be worth the gain in context. SISU's whole reputation is made on playing hardball, on not backing down or giving in. It means when it comes to negotiations you have to take everything Seppala says seriously, as she may well do what she says.

Take that away, give in meekly, and she loses that hand as a whole.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Yeah, what crap business people, I sure wouldn't like them to run anything I'm involved in.

P

 

[oldskyblue58]

There are claims on here that the club's accounts show that SISU have not taken any money out of CCFC. That is simply not true. And before anyone asks, yes, I am an accountant (ex-KPMG) as well as being a professor in a business school.

While it is incorrect to conclude from the accounts that SISU have not taken any money out of CCFC, it is equally the case that the accounts do not show that SISU have taken money out of CCFC. In other words, it could be that SISU have taken money out, but the accounts are simply not shown at a level of granularity that would prove it to be the case (or not). In short, we simply don't know.

To clarify my point in relation to previous comments by OSB and others, the accounts show that SISU have not received any dividend (in fact such a dividend would be illegal) or interest payments from the club. However, the absence of a dividend or interest payment does not necessarily imply, in and of itself, that SISU have not taken any cash out of the business. There are many ways for an owner to take cash out of the business other than through a dividend or interest payment. Moreover, those other ways wouldn't have to show up as a separate line item in the published accounts.

For example, consider the 2014 accounts which show that the club's direct operating costs were 1.1m. According to note 4 of the accounts, the 1.1m charge covers "match expenses and the direct costs relating to commercial activities". In the same year, the club reported "administrative expenses" of 4.1m. What were these admin expenses? Certainly they are not salaries because salaries are reported as a separate line item with an amount of 5.3m.

I am not saying necessarily that any of the 4.1m in "admin expenses" represent "management charges" or other types of expenses paid to SISU. On the other hand, neither am I ruling that out as a possibility. We simply DO NOT KNOW for sure because the accounts do not provide a sufficient level of detail for us to say one way or another what these numbers actually represent.

That's not to say that the accounts are materially misstated or in violation of financial reporting standards. Rather, we do not have enough detail from the published accounts about all the club's transactions in order for us to draw any firm conclusions.

For example, it was previously alleged (*) that under the club's previous ownership (Richardson and Robinson) the club had overstated its expenses paid to former players for the services they provided in entertaining corporate clients on a match day. Because the accounts are shown at a highly aggregated level, there would have been no way for me, OSB or anyone else to ascertain that from the published accounts.

* This allegation appeared on a now defunct fans forum. I am not saying that the allegation is necessarily true; rather I am using it for illustrative purposes.

Not going to get in to a technical discussion on this and frankly bore everyone else to death

- firstly what I have always said is that there is nothing in the published accounts to show SISU have extracted any funds. Simple fact. Which is also what Nick has repeated to be fair.
- could it be possible that there has been some payments yes, but people on here are stating it as fact that they are and that is incorrect, as you say we don't know for certain - but the accounts disclose nothing
- as SISU/JS exert significant influence over the CCFC and SBS&L Group activities you might expect disclosure under the Companies Act of such transactions as related party transactions
- If the directors do not disclose then the auditors should if they exist
- do we know for certain no we don't but there is no evidence for assertions by posters here that they have.

Do I disregard the possibility no. Frankly given this is the same owners etc that misplaced shares, couldn't say where their assets were, disclosed and valued an asset in a company that had no right to it, then I am very wary of what is actually published. Certainly the note about related parties does make me think the issue has been fudged

The 2014 figure of 4.1m admin expenses. Some of the expenses are broken down in note 3. There is £1.5m included as impairment of goodwill. There are lease and rent payments £800k. there are £200k of other expenses disclosed Then add in costs of insurance, shop costs, costs of the Ryton training ground, travel, other normal expenses and the figure to be explained is not so great. But it doesn't exclude the possibility no, nor does it confirm it.

On a practical level why hide such things then put through interest charges that (a) can not be paid out (b) increase the losses that get no present tax advantage (c) increase debt be it loans or preference shares (d) makes doing day to day business more difficult (e) when interest gives an "investment" return and a slice to SISU I would expect in any case.

I accept the possibility but I have never said other than there is no evidence of it in the published accounts. And there isnt

 

[oldskyblue58]

To go back to the OP, I believe that SISU are hanging around for two reasons:
1. It's not costing them anything as long as the club can pay its own way.
2. Wasps will likely encounter significant financial difficulties when the bond becomes due for repayment as they are still making huge losses.

If this is their strategy then it would seem to me to be one of stagnation for CCFC for the next 6 years and that is (or should be ) from a fans point very worrying

Wasps could go bust, but so far everything they have done has been very calculated, why would a bond exit strategy not be equally calculated? In 6 years time they will still have substantial assets to base any refinancing on. At the moment we do not know they are still making "huge losses" we should know more about the current position by 31 October so losses may not be a problem, I don't think anyone expects Wasps to have raised the cash to repay in full via trading and if we can figure that out I expect the Wasps owner/directors can too. There are options they could do to repay. Their bond is currently trading at a 8% premium so the market in general still likes it. Just as likely they wont go bust

 

[oldskyblue58]

We have so far had three "explanations" from the club as to what has happened to the Maddison money:

1. According to CA's statement at the time of JM's sale, the money will be used to build the club's infrastructure.
2. Later it was stated - mainly by Nick and others on this forum - that, according to the club, the Maddison money was being used to repay a loan that SISU had made to the club in the previous year.
3. Most recently, MV has said that, in fact, none of the Maddison money was paid to SISU.

A generous interpretation of the above is that the club's communications lack clarity and cause confusion.
A harsher interpretation is that the club's representatives have not been entirely honest with the fans.

Not that they haven't done that before now is it ....................... why would anyone be surprised at that

 

[Nick]

For them to just wait around on the hope that Wasps go bust is a bit of a massive gamble. Even then, what are the chances of them getting the Ricoh?

What do they do then? Do they package it with the club and sell off? Would they have done everything to just then charge high rent to the club like people seem to think?

 

[Bruce the Boot]

Even if Wasps did vacate , no saying the club would get hold of it ! , I think the next interesting milestone is going tobe when the current Ricoh deal ends .

 

[Captain Dart]

For them to just wait around on the hope that Wasps go bust is a bit of a massive gamble. Even then, what are the chances of them getting the Ricoh?

What do they do then? Do they package it with the club and sell off? Would they have done everything to just then charge high rent to the club like people seem to think?

I don't think that is the strategy, if it was likely Wasps were going bust any time soon those bonds would be trading at under issue value.
I think if the club shows break even at the next accounts then it will be worth something.
Moving a loss making business to profit/break even is after all if what SISU do.

 

[Nick]

I don't think that is the strategy, if it was likely Wasps were going bust any time soon those bonds would be trading at under issue value.
I think if the club shows break even at the next accounts then it will be worth something.
Moving a loss making business to profit/break even is after all if what SISU do.

I guess having a break even business is a good start.

then they could splash out on some new marketing ideas to get bums on seats and make it better!

 

[Bruce the Boot]

I guess having a break even business is a good start.

then they could splash out on some new marketing ideas to get bums on seats and make it better!

Tobe honest , That much damage has been done to the fan base , no amount of marketing will get Anti Sisu fans back ...

 

[Nick]

Tobe honest , That much damage has been done to the fan base , no amount of marketing will get Anti Sisu fans back ...

It's ok, plenty of moaning needs doing about investment so they can still do their part.