Future to be debated in Westminister (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
If Armstrong sits in a meeting then comes out of the meeting and makes a statement about what was said in the meeting.
Then a bloke on an Internet forum called Grendel says he is bullshitting. Then when Grendel is asked how he knows that it isn't what happened in the meeting.
Grendel actually has no idea what happened in the meeting, but can still tell us that Armstrong is factually wrong.
I would hope that by now it's a bit clearer to you. That you sound a bit nuts and slightly full of it.
That Cov discussing a long term rental with Wasps is a very likely thing to have happened.
So have you got anything to support saying Armstrong is making it up. Other than your Grendel spidey sense ?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Did Steve B from the trust say that the reason talks broke down was because wasps want us to sign up to a long term deal and we only wanted another 2+2 deal?
Personally I don't buy the "legal noise" excuse one bit. I think wasps are trying to push us in a position by delaying negotiations until thr last minute and give thr club no choice but to agree a significantly worse long term deal. Steve B's comment the other week kind of backs up my argument.
I don't believe Armstrong anymore than I believe fisher.
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Personally I don't buy the "legal noise" excuse one bit. I think wasps are trying to push us in a position by delaying negotiations until thr last minute and give thr club no choice but to agree a significantly worse long term deal. Steve B's comment the other week kind of backs up my argument.
I don't believe Armstrong anymore than I believe fisher.
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D
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rupert_bear
Well-Known Member
Coventry United was set up in July 2013 when the Northampton issue was happening and liquidation was supposedly a real threat. The guys who set up CU did it definitely as a safety net so if ccfc folded we or should I say a re-launched ccfc in a different name wouldn't have to start God knows how many leagues down the ladder. What they have achieved in just 3 years is unbelievable. I know some of the founders of CU and all are Sky Blue fanatics, question ? who's putting the money in, someone must be, why ? now I don't know if there are intentions either way but they certainly will have sisu looking over shoulders in my opinion.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Armstrong when asked the question said "background noise" a very nebulous statement.
He can't be accused if lying as that's a nebulous statement. Anderson in his interview said it wasn't an issue. He answered no.
So I'm afraid you can't have it both ways.
Commercially of course it would be in wasps interest to spin this to the death. Then the price goes to a maximum. We know the business ethos is ruthless, uncaring and calculating. There is no way on gods earth they would present a sensible proposal to the club until the death.
They will squeeze every penny they get fro us.
You accused OSB of being a cynic. Perhaps he is - perhaps I am.
Or perhaps we are just not gullible and believe the hype - or as you call it - straight talking.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Awesome sound. Best album ever. They released a track called Demented Man - I think Dongle was the inspiration - also Brainbox pollution.
As an aside Brainbox pollution was a b side to urban gorilla which was banned very quickly after release. I have an original vinyl copy.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Where did I say they were?
italiahorse
Well-Known Member
In search of space was brilliant.
Travelled everywhere to watch them in the 70s.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Anderson admitted they were trying to find a 'long term' home out of these talks. .
Anderson said he doesn't know enough the legal situation to know if it is an issue. However he made a point that Wasps themselves are not getting sued.
Armstrong says the deal under discussion was 20-25 years.
Armstrong says they called a halt to the talks until the legal stuff is over
Grendal says there was no 20 year deal under discussion
Grendel says the legal action isn't the reason the talks halted.
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duffer
Well-Known Member
Just to come back to the facts of the matter though, even Wasps admit that the JR has nothing to do with them.
David Armstrong, Wasps CEO, admits that (in the article Don linked to..)
“... In a way, it’s none of our business if they want to have a legal action with the council."
"We felt it was creating too much attention and noise and we didn’t feel it was the right time to conclude that deal. But just to be clear, we weren’t as firm as saying drop the JRs.
It’s not our business we can’t do that.”
So Wasps aren't in any way threatened by SISU taking on the council - to me this is a key point. No threat, just 'noise'. Shows how committed they really are to have the club at the Ricoh.
In the interim of course, they've also bounced the club out of the Higgs. Anyone who thinks these guys are our 'partners' and are somehow the wronged party in all of this needs to take a deep breath and think again.
To come back to the subject, maybe the MPs would be better off putting some pressure on our landlords than on the FL - there's nothing the FL can do to force Wasps to negotiate. Nothing MPs can do either, but it would be interesting to have the focus here on someone besides just SISU perhaps...
David Armstrong, Wasps CEO, admits that (in the article Don linked to..)
“... In a way, it’s none of our business if they want to have a legal action with the council."
"We felt it was creating too much attention and noise and we didn’t feel it was the right time to conclude that deal. But just to be clear, we weren’t as firm as saying drop the JRs.
It’s not our business we can’t do that.”
So Wasps aren't in any way threatened by SISU taking on the council - to me this is a key point. No threat, just 'noise'. Shows how committed they really are to have the club at the Ricoh.
In the interim of course, they've also bounced the club out of the Higgs. Anyone who thinks these guys are our 'partners' and are somehow the wronged party in all of this needs to take a deep breath and think again.
To come back to the subject, maybe the MPs would be better off putting some pressure on our landlords than on the FL - there's nothing the FL can do to force Wasps to negotiate. Nothing MPs can do either, but it would be interesting to have the focus here on someone besides just SISU perhaps...
Nick
Administrator
It's ironic that some of the people who voted on the sale (and the conditions) are now shouting about the football league.
There's not much lime light on the land Lord in any of it for some reason.
covmark
Well-Known Member
You replied to grendel who was debating with Dongo about Cov Utd being supported as a phoenix club.
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Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Ok I ignored that bit
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Then again if they dropped the United bit???????????
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
They are not partners. They are just not stupid.
They have something we need.
We don't have anything they need.
JR2 will affect them interns of money and time it's a hassle.
Get us to drop the legal action ( without directly telling us to drop it)
Gets them in the hood books with their key business associate and removes a hassle.
They would be mad not to exert a bit of pressure on us.
(Just my opinion of course)
For the umpteenth time there is no protection clause!
Also he is not on the Board of CRFC is he
CRFC are only dealing with CCFC
Also
If we knew now what we knew when the Ricoh lease was signed would we have accepted that
Grendel
Well-Known Member
In this articles Anderson refuted the argument that legal issues or length of contract were an issue. Sigh
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-managing-director-chris-11420915
covmark
Well-Known Member
Not for me. A phoenix club would have to be set up after the liquidation of the current club.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
Does the club want to stay at the Ricoh Arena?
"To achieve that, we are looking for a long-term home. We want that home to be in the city whose name we bear, so that the hundreds of thousands of people or however many we attract can support us, and we can at the same time benefit from their support financially."
Can you understand why there might be difficulty over negotiations while there is legal action ongoing from CCFC’s owners?
"In any negotiations, there are obstacles to finding agreement. Sometimes that’s over the issues at hand, sometimes those have to do with the parties involved.
"I really don’t know enough about the issues to address the legal angle - please correct me if I’m wrong, but if I understand correctly, Wasps are not the defendants in any of the proceedings."
He said no to the question have wasps told you to stop the legal action.
Wasps themselves have said they didn't say that.
I didn't say contract length was an issue you said that 20-25 years wasn't discussed.
Andersons talks about wanting a long term solution. I can't see why Armstrong would make up the time period they were discussing
#sigh#
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Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
That's ok if it does happen we will be split from the beginning could be a two team city bit of local rivalry
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Does he need to be on the board of CRFC to have it's best interest at heart?
If he does have CRFC's best interests at heart would you blame him for not releasing the card that would enable them to get into bed CCFC's owners?
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Its a ridiculous notion that a club thats been in existence 3+ years, are called "united", play in red, have no connection to ccfc and no elephant on its badge would suddenly become ccfc mk2.
I can see people of Coventry maybe supporting them, but what of the other half the fan base that live outside the city in nuneaton, bedworth, Southam, Warwick, rugby, etc? I'm not convinced they will have any affinity for Cov United in comparison to a true phoenix club.
And probably both be destined to be non league clubs due to a split fan base and.
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Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Is every suggestion on here serious? If we were liquidated which I don't think we will be then I would support the new club. The name could be changed so could the colours and the badge
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
The majority wouldn't look into it as deeply as yourself.
If we were liquidated (I don't believe that is a viable option)
If Cov Utd were still playing at the Butts at the time.
I think they would get the capacity filled there.
The rest would depend on success and people acting like sheep.
If the nearly 3k had a good time.
If the club was successful interest would grow.
It would all depend on success not the factors you have mentioned.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
No of course every suggestion on here isn't serious.
I also don't think we will be liquidated.
But if you change the name, change the colours, change the badge, is that just a type of franchising? It bears no connection to ccfc, other than thr owners are cov fans.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
The club was created by Cov fans who felt the move to Northamption was a form of franchising and signalled the death of the club.
If the club were eventually to die many will feel that the move to Northampton played a significant role in that. Whether that is correct or not.
People could justify the Phoenix tag in the basis it was born out of the moment that killed the club.
However the 'Phoenix' tag isn't that important.
Also it's not in any way a form of franchising.
If you club seize to exist and you support a club in the same city that was set up by fellow fans. In response to the actions of the people who killed your club
Anyway as I say success will be far more important at that stage than
Kit colours (coventry's civic colours)
And badges.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I think you're underestimating people here most see and will see cov united as a separate and completely different club. I also think you're over estimating where cov united will get to.
As for 3k in let's say tiers 6/7, I would think there would be little chance if that. We only get 10k at thr minute in league one, I would estimate over 50% of thr crowd come from or live outside the city, they would likely reject cov united as a Phoenix IMO, are 60% of the remaining fans from cov going to want to watch and pay a fair whack to watch non league football and a team that isn't/wasnt a reincarnation of ccfc ?
Its just another form of franchising.
We're not going to be liquidated anyway, so it won't be an issue, but I do find it strange that cov united was set up and being lined up to be ccfc Phoenix, it simply can't be.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
You mention the badge and the team name.
If heritage is the most important factor,
We had the civic arms before the elephant.
The elephant only came about in the 70's plus we were called Singers FC originally.
So the civic colours ironically is more set in Coventry's history than people may realise.
However like BHSB says.
If an elephant was really important a badge can be modified.
However if you are going on the true history of the club you actually wouldn't need to.
However we both agree CCFC won't be liquidated so it's a bit if a pointless hypothetical debate
Also you can never describe the Cov Utd scenario as a form of 'franchising'. If CCFC no longer existed.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
You might not think it but I agree with you by new club I should have said cov United. I have never seen them as some sort of franchise and you're right they play in civic colours what I was saying that they could change any colours etc they wanted to if they wanted to. As for numbers wouldn't be important to start if st all to me
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Heritage is important, I.e. like AFC wimbledon, rangers, Darlington, the many incarnations of nuneaton boro, etc, etc a new club has to come from the ashes of the old club. (Yes I know all about the civic colours and well aware of history of the club)
Of course you can describe cov united as a franchise if ccfc died, if it has been set up as its direct replacement and/or if they change colours, badge, name, etc. I doubt in this instance the FA would recognise that cov united is ccfc mk2 and allow them to claim the history of ccfc, so it would be a completely different club. I would imagine someone, the trust probably, will start an AFC ccfc proper phoenix anyway, which would hold claim on ccfcs history, so you'd be left with a true Phoenix ccfc and an imposter club.
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stupot07
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying they are a franchise currently, just that if they became ccfc mk2 after being in existence for 4+ years because the trust and fan base didn't have the stomach to start again AFC Wimbledon style then it would be a kind of franchising.
They simply are not and never will be the sky blues we love so much. I find the whole suggestion quite opportunistic.
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dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
I guess it's personal opinion.
If CCFC were liquidated.
I would be happy to go to the butts to watch a team that play in the civic colours. That was started by Cov fans in response to one of the actions that will have killed our club.
The civic arms was how our badge was set up originally. So it celebrates the heritage even more so than an elephant. Probably should have called themselves the Coventry Singers as oppose to Utd.
So with no CCFC in my city I wouldn't be against going to watch Coventry Utd.
Also I would never in the circumstances ever consider it to be in anyway a form of franchising.
If CCFC were liquidated.
I would be happy to go to the butts to watch a team that play in the civic colours. That was started by Cov fans in response to one of the actions that will have killed our club.
The civic arms was how our badge was set up originally. So it celebrates the heritage even more so than an elephant. Probably should have called themselves the Coventry Singers as oppose to Utd.
So with no CCFC in my city I wouldn't be against going to watch Coventry Utd.
Also I would never in the circumstances ever consider it to be in anyway a form of franchising.
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Grendel
Well-Known Member
Surely if we were liquidated you could get on with the master plan. Give your buddy Haskell a tinkle - tell him the coast is clear -and get Nuneaton Town into the Ricoh.
dongonzalos
Well-Known Member
That boat has sailed (to coin a phrase)
The idea of that was to threaten SISU that another club could come into the Ricoh.
Get SISU to step up and buy ACL back then when they should have done. Instead as you were encouraging them to do they were sitting in another town, trying to starve ACL out.
Outcome of your way = Wasps
Brilliant as always. Well done.
Although to be fair as soon as they got wind of another club coming to the Ricoh they were back in the blink of an eye.