Andy Thorn: This is the worst period of my career. (1 Viewer)

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I agree. The blame the manager/sack the manager cycle has to stop. Look where it's got us. What progress have we made since sacking Adams? Dowie? Coleman? Boothroyd? Nowhere. It would be the same if we got rid of AT. It's SISU that are the problem, they are the ones who have hamstrung him.

I think the fans will get there way though and he'll be sacked. Then they'll moan about his replacement on appointment or wait until he's lost a few and then moan about him then. And so on and so forth...

Yea I totally agree, we all should sit back, relax and enjoy the one way ticket to league 1 with Thorn in charge.

SISU have to go as well but Thorn is not getting the best out of the squad we have.

 

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[CUS Wyken]

i seem to remember a lot of people complaining about Boothroyds style of play when we were in the playoffs, then we lost the backbone of our team due to injury and wasn't able to recover. Fans don't always know best, if they did they'd be managers, not just fans.

Were bottom of the league. Worst start since we got relegated back in 01.

Something needs to change, feeling sorry for Thorn and looking at the past don't do us any good now.

So we stick with Thorn and get relegated by April. His contract runs out end of season. We don't renew and we bring soemone in then. Pre season of unrest with new manager etc...

If we get rid now and bring in someone new. This new manager can build for the future and have a basis for next season.

 

[CUS Wyken]

Where is the evidence of Thorn's talent that allows people to say it's purely a money thing? To even suggest that nobody could do better with the same squad than a recently-converted scout is amazing.

Its a very important question i keeping asking and no-one replies. Silence is golden as they say.

 

[Lloyd]

But we have had this for years lloyd but that was not what I was getting at and it was not a go about squad depth or anything like that(sorry if you thought it was)
My main point was fighting spirit, the players have not got it, they have no desire forget skill etc it is down to fighting for survival and beleiving that they can do it,motivation,growing some nuts and putting your body on the line for the team, for the club, for the fans but it is not there and this is down to management and training.
How can we know that changing a manager will not bring this desire back into the group of players unless we try?
If we stick with Thorn weather we like it or not is only going one way and that is down, ok we get relegated with a differant manager but if we are going to go down then at least lets go down fighting not whimpering.

i do get your point and I do agree with you about having the drive and motivation, but not everyone is like that. We've got players like that, you seem them every week. Keogh and Juke for example. McPake has that same fighting style - but it gets him injured, Ben Turner had that same fight and passion, and then he got injured.

I don't have all the answers, but I don't think changing the manager will bring the fight or give our players the fire in their bellies that we so desperately need.

 

[torchomatic]

Sack him. Get someone else in. Keep losing because the squad is poor. Moan. Get relegated. Moan. Lack of investment in squad. Lose matches. Moan. Lose more matches. Moan. Sack manager. etc etc etc

The cycle has to stop sometime. If we are relegated anyway as you and many others have stated then what's the point?

Yea I totally agree, we all should sit back, relax and enjoy the one way ticket to league 1 with Thorn in charge.

SISU have to go as well but Thorn is not getting the best out of the squad we have.

 

[CUS Wyken]

Sack him. Get someone else in. Keep losing because the squad is poor. Moan. Get relegated. Moan. Lack of investment in squad. Lose matches. Moan. Lose more matches. Moan. Sack manager. etc etc etc

The cycle has to stop sometime. If we are relegated anyway as you and many others have stated then what's the point?

Torch - or on the otherside. Keep Thorn, relegated by April and then he leaves when his contract runs out end of season and then will have a pre-season of unrest.

 

[ajsccfc]

I should clarify my position is not that of calling for his head. I'd love him to do well and there are clearly constraints that hamper him. However he's hardly the first to have similar conditions, and I'm not convinced he has the capability to thrive under them. I'd be delighted for him to prove otherwise, but I'm not giving him blind faith just because he's seen as fighting the tide against big bad SISU.

 

[wingy]

I should clarify my position is not that of calling for his head. I'd love him to do well and there are clearly constraints that hamper him. However he's hardly the first to have similar conditions, and I'm not convinced he has the capability to thrive under them. I'd be delighted for him to prove otherwise, but I'm not giving him blind faith just because he's seen as fighting the tide against big bad SISU.

Is it not the signal from SISU to the players thats the issue here ,does that not render the manager toothless.

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

i seem to remember a lot of people complaining about Boothroyds style of play when we were in the playoffs, then we lost the backbone of our team due to injury and wasn't able to recover. Fans don't always know best, if they did they'd be managers, not just fans.

I agree totally a lot of people on here complained about Boothroyds tactics and they had good reason to, it was diabolic. If people come on here who say they have been a supporter for 30/40 years and say its the worst football they have ever seen us play, which was happening even when we were high in the league then you must listen to them and not totally disregard there opinions because you don't agree with them. Statements like these are colossol in meaning, 30/40 years its a bloody long time.
I know fans don't know best, but many make very valid well imformed points, so do we have to ignore them, is that your advice, and the point all fans who always know best, why are'nt they managers, well life takes many routes,different paths and all that away from football management, its like saying people who speak of on polotics, should have chosen a career in polotics. Why do we ignore people's opinion who have decades of experience of watching football, just because we don't agree.

The Rev

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Sack him. Get someone else in. Keep losing because the squad is poor. Moan. Get relegated. Moan. Lack of investment in squad. Lose matches. Moan. Lose more matches. Moan. Sack manager. etc etc etc

The cycle has to stop sometime. If we are relegated anyway as you and many others have stated then what's the point?

Yea if things stay as they are we will be relegated imo.

The cycle stops when you have a good manager who you believe in, why should you keep a manager in charge who you don't believe in just because...well for no reason really other than the cycle needs to stop or we need continuity.
You don't have a reason for not sacking him based on his managerial ability, if you have I have missed it or disagree with it.

 

[ICHAN]

I don't want us relegated torchy but something has to change.
I agree changing manager is no good all the time.
But something has to change and only one thing can be changed and if it is the manager which it has to be as no-one else can be then so what, but something has to be done.
We are not guarenteed to go down there are always twists and turns throughout the season but we need a change before it IS to late.
The dread of being relegated is fearful because we will struggle to get back up, how many honestly thought we would still be in the championship when we got relegated all that time ago?
I didn't, who would have thought all these years down the line we would be staring relegation in the face?
I didn't and why?
Because we always fought our way through it with beleif and conviction, when we were in the prem we did not have great teams every year we always struggled but the titanic should have been painted sky blue because we never went down why because as a supporter there was always that one thing in our favour, the team fought for there survival, the management instilled in them the beleief that they will survive and they will fight for survival and not just whimper down without a spirit of survival

 

[ajsccfc]

Is it not the signal from SISU to the players thats the issue here ,does that not render the manager toothless.

Only to a certain extent. How long can leads be dropped and simple mistakes made while people pass it off as 'no money' though? If players can build a lead or get back into a game and continually throw points away, the manager simply can't be looked upon as doing the best job possible. If it's out of his hands completely, what's he doing there?

 

[Lloyd]

I agree totally a lot of people on here complained about Boothroyds tactics and they had good reason to, it was diabolic. If people come on here who say they have been a supporter for 30/40 years and say its the worst football they have ever seen us play, which was happening even when we were high in the league then you must listen to them and not totally disregard there opinions because you don't agree with them. Statements like these are colossol in meaning, 30/40 years its a bloody long time.
I know fans don't know best, but many make very valid well imformed points, so do we have to ignore them, is that your advice, and the point all fans who always know best, why are'nt they managers, well life takes many routes,different paths and all that away from football management, its like saying people who speak of on polotics, should have chosen a career in polotics. Why do we ignore people's opinion who have decades of experience of watching football, just because we don't agree.

The Rev

I'm not saying that we should ignore it. Not at all. I was stating that it doesn't matter what style of football we play, supporters moan, it doesn't matter what position in the league we're in, supporters moan, the managers haven't had enough time to really make a difference in the squad and they get the sack for a string of bad performances.

Every decision that has been made over the last 2 seasons has put us in our current predicament, the fans are calling for a change, but I feel that changing the manager is the wrong change right now.

I agree that I've seen AT do some tactically questionable things during a game, but I've seen that from every manager I've ever seen, ranging from Man Utd to Luton, that doesn't mean they are solely to blame.

If a player makes a mistake and it leads to a goal, do you blame the player or the manager for putting that player on the pitch?

 

[wingy]

SO ,say they hire some down on his luck other manager,gets another 4year contract like all these players have ,another massive obstacle to anyone wishing to take over .

 

[ICHAN]

If someone takes over and they want there own manager wingy they will need serious money in the first place to want to take us over if they have any ambition of turning the club around so would not have thought that would be a really big issue.

 

[torchomatic]

Which we will have anyway whether he stays or goes. If the club are relegated regardless of whoever is manager and SISU is here then the protests and action will continue anyway...we're in for unrest whether you get your way with Thorn or not.

I'm not saying he's the best manager we've had or could have, but he's here and he's doing his best in unprecedented circumstances. Whether "doing his best" is ultimately good enough, who knows?

Torch - or on the otherside. Keep Thorn, relegated by April and then he leaves when his contract runs out end of season and then will have a pre-season of unrest.

 

[CUS Wyken]

Which we will have anyway whether he stays or goes. If the club are relegated regardless of whoever is manager and SISU is here then the protests and action will continue anyway...we're in for unrest whether you get your way with Thorn or not.

I'm not saying he's the best manager we've had or could have, but he's here and he's doing his best in unprecedented circumstances. Whether "doing his best" is ultimately good enough, who knows?

I know what you mean.

But if we bring a new manager in now, he can prepare for next season and set the foundations ready for pre season.

Leave it till May, less time to prepare etc...

 

[The Reverend Skyblue]

I'm not saying that we should ignore it. Not at all. I was stating that it doesn't matter what style of football we play, supporters moan, it doesn't matter what position in the league we're in, supporters moan, the managers haven't had enough time to really make a difference in the squad and they get the sack for a string of bad performances.

Every decision that has been made over the last 2 seasons has put us in our current predicament, the fans are calling for a change, but I feel that changing the manager is the wrong change right now.

I agree that I've seen AT do some tactically questionable things during a game, but I've seen that from every manager I've ever seen, ranging from Man Utd to Luton, that doesn't mean they are solely to blame.

If a player makes a mistake and it leads to a goal, do you blame the player or the manager for putting that player on the pitch?

Differing views lloyd, but i respect your opinion and we move on together towards some good times, Hopefully

The Rev

 

[Lloyd]

Differing views lloyd, but i respect your opinion and we move on together towards some good times, Hopefully

The Rev

you mean we wont result in flinging insults back and forth? And here I thought this was a forum!

heres to a nice 3 points tomorrow eh?

PUSB.

 

[ajsccfc]

If nobody's fighting, why did I buy all this popcorn? Damn you all.

 

[Bloodnut1964]

But we have had this for years lloyd but that was not what I was getting at and it was not a go about squad depth or anything like that(sorry if you thought it was)
My main point was fighting spirit, the players have not got it, they have no desire forget skill etc it is down to fighting for survival and beleiving that they can do it,motivation,growing some nuts and putting your body on the line for the team, for the club, for the fans but it is not there and this is down to management and training.
How can we know that changing a manager will not bring this desire back into the group of players unless we try?
If we stick with Thorn weather we like it or not is only going one way and that is down, ok we get relegated with a differant manager but if we are going to go down then at least lets go down fighting not whimpering.

I go to work every day and earn enough money to keep me afloat, I can't afford a fancy house or car or designer clothes etc etc....
Them players get paid a lot of money compared to the average man on the street and should fight tooth and nail anyway, it's quite obvious that the players just aren't interested co's of all the off field distractions and basically not good enough no matter who the manager is.
STOP blaming Thorn it's not his fault he has nothing to work with, the players know we are in the smelly stuff, so your point about them not fighting tooth and nail surely has to fall on them? or maybe they don't know and they are out enjoying the rich lifestyle they lead everyday!!

Changing the manager with no funds is not going to do anything with the current crop of players we have, we need investment and anyone who can't see that is not being honest and needs to get a reality check!!

 

[Bloodnut1964]

The current 'equipment' has had us in positions to earn a lot more points than we have this season, and while the opposing manager has adapted his side this we've come up short time and time again in this department.

WRONG, the current equipment has not got us more points than we have this season co's like I have said before we have no Marlon Ling, Kieran Westwood, Aron Gunnarsson, they have all gone and pretty important players in my opinion.

 

[ajsccfc]

Erm, you ought to read my post again before calling it WRONG. I didn't mention last season in any way, we've dropped points this season from advantageous positions.

 

[ajsccfc]

I go to work every day and earn enough money to keep me afloat, I can't afford a fancy house or car or designer clothes etc etc....
Them players get paid a lot of money compared to the average man on the street and should fight tooth and nail anyway, it's quite obvious that the players just aren't interested co's of all the off field distractions and basically not good enough no matter who the manager is.
STOP blaming Thorn it's not his fault he has nothing to work with, the players know we are in the smelly stuff, so your point about them not fighting tooth and nail surely has to fall on them? or maybe they don't know and they are out enjoying the rich lifestyle they lead everyday!!

Changing the manager with no funds is not going to do anything with the current crop of players we have, we need investment and anyone who can't see that is not being honest and needs to get a reality check!!

So money is both the problem and the solution, and Thorn is both blameless and useless?

Quite the pickle.

 

[Coventry La La La]

No funds, no depth, playing allot of inexperienced youngsters sounds like the perfect recipe for relegation.

Add to that the off field financial problems which I'm sure is affecting the players we have finished bottom half for many seasons now and have a much worse squad compared to them seasons = relegation.

 

[Bloodnut1964]

Erm, you ought to read my post again before calling it WRONG. I didn't mention last season in any way, we've dropped points this season from advantageous positions.

Ok I apologise but can't remember too many games when we were actually in a winning position, we normally concede first, we have thrown away a couple of draws and yes a last minute goal when we should of won, even with them extra points we would still be in trouble. Time for the players to stand up and be counted I reckon, oh yeah we aint got many players to be counted which is why we need to invest instead of sacking the manager :facepalm:

 

[Bloodnut1964]

So money is both the problem and the solution, and Thorn is both blameless and useless?

Quite the pickle.

The point is if the players know we are in trouble why should they need anyone to gee them up?
The point is they earn a lot of money and are not giving anything in return!
The point is Andy Thorn has been given hardly anything to work with.
The point is common sense will tell ya If you have a side that hasn't finished anywhere near the top of the league for years and then you lose most of your best players you are going to struggle.

 

[CUS Wyken]

The point is if the players know we are in trouble why should they need anyone to gee them up?
The point is they earn a lot of money and are not giving anything in return!
The point is Andy Thorn has been given hardly anything to work with.
The point is common sense will tell ya If you have a side that hasn't finished anywhere near the top of the league for years and then you lose most of your best players you are going to struggle.

and a manager who hasn't a clue.

i agree recipe for a disaster

 

[ajsccfc]

I don't believe that they're not trying their best to win games, that's just an easy excuse to explain away flaws, such as the coaching, preparation and application of the team. Likewise I believe Thorn's doing his best, but I've seen NO evidence that suggests he's doing as well as anyone could in the same position. If anyone has, I'd love to see it.

 

[Bloodnut1964]

and a manager who hasn't a clue.

i agree recipe for a disaster

A manger who has blunt tools to work with, he's not clueless at all.
Entitled to your opinion no matter how toothless it is.

 

[ajsccfc]

Again, where's the case for Thorn as a good manager? A year ago he'd taken charge of as many matches as I have, and I'm still not too far behind him when it comes to points on the board.

 

[Bloodnut1964]

I don't believe that they're not trying their best to win games, that's just an easy excuse to explain away flaws, such as the coaching, preparation and application of the team. Likewise I believe Thorn's doing his best, but I've seen NO evidence that suggests he's doing as well as anyone could in the same position. If anyone has, I'd love to see it.

And you have no evidence to say that anyone else if they would take the managers job could do any better either.
You can't predict what someone else is gonna do you can only hope or imagine.

 

[ajsccfc]

You can point to track records of managers that go beyond chief scout, you can point to people with actual experience of managing football teams more than a few months, of coaching, of adapting to what's going on. Can't do that with Thorn, all you can do is reiterate that he can't do anything without money. Money that's not there. Essentially painting him as a castrated figure who has zero control over the fortunes of the team he's meant to guide.

 

[Bloodnut1964]

Again, where's the case for Thorn as a good manager? A year ago he'd taken charge of as many matches as I have, and I'm still not too far behind him when it comes to points on the board.

I have not said he is a good manager, I just don't think you should be blaming him, I think the players should take some of the blame.
Bothroyd and Coleman both came here with much better credentials than Thorn, how good did they do?
They had better players and more squad depth to work with, they didn't have to rely on the youth players week in week out.
Truth be known we have probably ruined the youth players by pushing them into the first team too soon, again not Andy Thorn's fault.

 

[ajsccfc]

The players should definitely take blame, everyone involved should; that's my point. Thorn should too, as his job is managing the side. There are restrictions on what he does, but these should not be reasons to absolve him of all blame.