A Clean Slate? (21 Viewers)

[Grendel]

You're the first to suggest that.

Growth and success would be organic and, as a result, lasting.

Neither are guaranteed. Football fans are a fickle bunch. All they care about is winning and all have unrealistic expectations.

If we had made the play offs last season got promoted and were in the bottom 6 but out the bottom 3 of the championship having just beaten Aston Villa would you have made this op?

 

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[Otis]

You're doing exactly the same, you're slipping into an entrenched position of what the club is to *you*.

Interestingly however... nobody has yet bothered to counter in any detail my assertion that the club as it stands is inevitably doomed.

And also it is a pretty reasonable assumption to make.

If AFC Wimbledon fans very much see themselves as Wimbledon then why would it be any different for us?

AFC Wimbledon ARE Wimbledon, but Coventry City AFC are not Coventry City?

Don't understand the thought processing around that.

Each and every to their own though.

Would still very much be Coventry City to me and thousands of others I'm sure.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

If we had made the play offs last season got promoted and were in the bottom 6 but out the bottom 3 of the championship having just beaten Aston Villa would you have made this op?

As I said at the very beginning, any takeover of the shell of our club may have a bit of a false bounce. It won't disguise the fact the club is shot, however...

Any more, indeed, then it was shot when McGinnity had sold everything he could get his hands on.

We're irretrievably broken, and any amount of fleeting brief success won't change that.

 

[chiefdave]

You're the first to suggest that.

Surely the point of a phoenix club is that it retains the fanbase, or at least a good chunk of it. Seems the clubs who have reformed with a decent level of success have managed that.

 

[Brylowes]

Neither are guaranteed. Football fans are a fickle bunch. All they care about is winning and all have unrealistic expectations.

If we had made the play offs last season got promoted and were in the bottom 6 but out the bottom 3 of the championship having just beaten Aston Villa would you have made this op?

I don't buy that Grendel, if all supporters were only interested in winning we would
Have non left, I'm not sure I agree with the unrealistic expectations either.
I think what most expect, and the owners should be duty bound to provide, is hope
And being able to look forward, striding to achieve.
All football clubs in all leagues share this philosophy, if they don't then what is the
Point in their very existence.
And hope is something that's been ebbing away from us for so long now that the reality
Is even the most fervent of supporters are losing interest. IMHO

 

[stupot07]

I would support a true Phoenix club if it came to it, whether I would get a ST or just pick and choose games I couldn't say. I certainly wouldn't support a cov united 'phoenix' as been mooted on here once or twice. That would be me gone.

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[higgs]

We shouldn't be forced to support a different team ccfc is our club now some hedge funds

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[Buster]

This club cannot die . Correction ,Coventry football team cannot die . How has it changed from the team I used to watch in the 60's . Almost everything except the one most important item . Ground has changed ,staff,players ,league formation ,rules ,everything bar me . I am the only consistant in an ever changing ,regenerating sport .
My team won the FA Cup in 87. You can change the name of my team just like you change the playing staff ground or manager but you will never change the fact that my team won the FA Cup
We could lose supporters that are attached to the letters ccfc, but When the football gets better they will be replaced .Lifes like that

 

[Otis]

I would support a true Phoenix club if it came to it, whether I would get a ST or just pick and choose games I couldn't say. I certainly wouldn't support a cov united 'phoenix' as been mooted on here once or twice. That would be me gone.

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Well yep, get that.

I would only consider following Cov United if CCFC came completely defunct for good, with no club out of the ashes.

No Coventry City at all and I would consider following Cov United

 

[Captain Dart]

Bloody Hell!!! Is it coincidence? I say to Nick give RFC a wave from me and Lo and behold, he turns up on here after months of nothing from him.. Hmmmmm!

Something is going on, I can feel it in my water.

 

[Nick]

Something is going on, I can feel it in my water.

Is Jack Griffin using your computer again?

 

[dongonzalos]

Why? Tell me why not beyond an emotional response, based on supporting the football club?

Why liquidate even if you get a penny in the pound for your debt.
That's looks better on your reputation than your business failure leading to a club like Coventry City getting liquidated.

 

[Paxman II]

Some of the fans on here I find difficult to believe in what they say. The idea that we fold in some way and start again is pure fantasy. We are a league 1 club with a solid manager at the helm and not a bad budget for this league. So every reason to believe we can be promoted. I still believe as all fans should we will make it a party this season. Wigan came late after their whole team were just about replaced from the season before to win the league. Looking close at what we have done so far in 9 games there has been some good stuff and some bad mainly on getting things to gel. I feel its just around the corner. Plenty of teams in this league look very poor. A few 3 pointers will seem like 4 points when you add them to the draws we already have.
Doom and gloom seems to be a past time for many so called supporters on here with the negative far outweighing the positive. Forget SISU, the rumour filled nonsense and look forward to the next game and a turning point in our season.

 

[Brylowes]

Some of the fans on here I find difficult to believe in what they say. The idea that we fold in some way and start again is pure fantasy. We are a league 1 club with a solid manager at the helm and not a bad budget for this league. So every reason to believe we can be promoted. I still believe as all fans should we will make it a party this season. Wigan came late after their whole team were just about replaced from the season before to win the league. Looking close at what we have done so far in 9 games there has been some good stuff and some bad mainly on getting things to gel. I feel its just around the corner. Plenty of teams in this league look very poor. A few 3 pointers will seem like 4 points when you add them to the draws we already have.
Doom and gloom seems to be a past time for many so called supporters on here with the negative far outweighing the positive. Forget SISU, the rumour filled nonsense and look forward to the next game and a turning point in our season.

Alrighty

 

[singers_pore]

every reason to believe we can be promoted. I still believe as all fans should we will make it a party this season. Wigan came late after their whole team were just about replaced from the season before to win the league. Looking close at what we have done so far in 9 games there has been some good stuff and some bad mainly on getting things to gel. I feel its just around the corner.

Wow - talk about delusional. Our squad is very poor. There is zero chance of promotion and a very real chance of relegation. we have a manager who appears to have thrown in the towel and an owner that couldn't give a damn about anything other than court cases. Wake up and smell the coffee...

 

[Paxman II]

Wow - talk about delusional. Our squad is very poor. There is zero chance of promotion and a very real chance of relegation. we have a manager who appears to have thrown in the towel and an owner that couldn't give a damn about anything other than court cases. Wake up and smell the coffee...

So let me get this right. You are basically saying the squad is not fit for purpose, no promotion chance and likely relegation. The manager and owners can't be arsed and therefore I should stop dreaming and get high on caffeine? Well lets all go slit our wrist now all the facts are out.

 

[rupert_bear]

And also it is a pretty reasonable assumption to make.

If AFC Wimbledon fans very much see themselves as Wimbledon then why would it be any different for us?

AFC Wimbledon ARE Wimbledon, but Coventry City AFC are not Coventry City?

Don't understand the thought processing around that.

Each and every to their own though.

Would still very much be Coventry City to me and thousands of others I'm sure.

I think Leicester carry Foxes in their proper name since their admin, might be wrong but thought I read it at the time

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

So let me get this right. You are basically saying the squad is not fit for purpose, no promotion chance and likely relegation. The manager and owners can't be arsed and therefore I should stop dreaming and get high on caffeine? Well lets all go slit our wrist now all the facts are out.

Obviously you see a totally different situation to everyone else.

 

[mark82]

Yes, because fans haven't over and over again said the academy is the lifeblood either have they?

If the club starts up as AFC Coventry than I'd be done with football, everybody will be saying "Yeah I will be 100% behind it" until they realise they are playing Chasetown Away on a Tuesday night.

I also don't see the logic in when people are saying they want to kill the club off rather than rot away in leagues 1 or 2 that has been said, the ambition of a new team would be to reach the football league.

Everybody is saying they want an upward curve and success etc, doesn't everybody? Surely jumping off to go and support a different team who will win games week in week out in non league is not far off jumping off to go and support Leicester?

We would likely take a 2 (maybe 3 at most) division drop in the event of liquidation and reformation. Wouldn't really be a different club, it would carry forward the history like Chester, Halifax and many others.

 

[Brylowes]

I think Leicester carry Foxes in their proper name since their admin, might be wrong but thought I read it at the time

No, ha ha, you just read it wrong it actually said c**t's

Easy mistake to make though.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

If a reformation occured with Coventry City AFC. I'd be ok with that I just wouldn't use the AFC bit when making any written comments.

 

[Nick]

We would likely take a 2 (maybe 3 at most) division drop in the event of liquidation and reformation. Wouldn't really be a different club, it would carry forward the history like Chester, Halifax and many others.

Would it only be 3 at most?

If it was still Coventry City then the league wouldn't matter too much, not ideal obviously.

 

[stupot07]

We would likely take a 2 (maybe 3 at most) division drop in the event of liquidation and reformation. Wouldn't really be a different club, it would carry forward the history like Chester, Halifax and many others.

There is no way we would be dropped straight into the conference if we were liquidated.

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[Sky Blue Kid]

There is no way we would be dropped straight into the conference if we were liquidated.

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If we were dropped into the Conference, we'd lose the "Golden Share" Wouldn't we?

 

[stupot07]

yeah, If we were dropped into the Conference and out of the football league, we'd lose the "Golden Share" Wouldn't we?

Thats what will happen anyway if we're liquidated. Looking at the likes of Darlington, chester, Halifax, afc wimbledon etc we would likely have to start again in 8-9th tier. We're not a special case like rangers who are hugely important to the SFA, we're not different to any other league one or two side. Depressing but true.

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[Captain Dart]

We would likely take a 2 (maybe 3 at most) division drop in the event of liquidation and reformation. Wouldn't really be a different club, it would carry forward the history like Chester, Halifax and many others.

Tier 9, that is what happened to Hereford & Wimbledon.

 

[Frankley]

Thats what will happen anyway if we're liquidated. Looking at the likes of Darlington, chester, Halifax, afc wimbledon etc we would likely have to start again in 8-9th tier. We're not a special case like rangers who are hugely important to the SFA, we're not different to any other league one or two side. Depressing but true.

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But wouldn't 'Liquidation', by definition, see see the breaking up of the club and the disposal of it's assets?

If 'Liquidation' happens someone might purchase the name CCFC, someone else a left back, someone else the first team kit.

Unless someone bought the 'rump' of the business I think we'd have to start again from scratch, not even in the 8 or 9th tier.

 

[Captain Dart]

But wouldn't 'Liquidation', by definition, see see the breaking up of the club and the disposal of it's assets?

If 'Liquidation' happens someone might purchase the name CCFC, someone else a left back, someone else the first team kit.

Unless someone bought the 'rump' of the business I think we'd have to start again from scratch, not even in the 8 or 9th tier.

No you can start a team at that level subject to FA approval, there are always teams folding that far down.
There is a high likelihood the FA would look favourably on a Coventry phoenix club if they had no other professional club.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_F.C.#2015.E2.80.9316_season Hereford FC, Hereford United phoenix club started in tier 9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Wimbledon#Non-League_football_.282002.E2.80.932011.29 Wimbledon AFC started in tier 8

 

[Frankley]

No you can start a team at that level subject to FA approval, there are always teams folding that far down. There is a good chance the FA would look favourably on Coventry if they had no other professional club.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereford_F.C.#2015.E2.80.9316_season Hereford FC, Hereford United phoenix club started in tier 9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Wimbledon#Non-League_football_.282002.E2.80.932011.29 Wimbledon AFC started in tier 8

Hereford United was liquidated and Hereford FC is a different business organisation, so that's quite like our situation might be. It seems that Hereford FC was allowed to play in the 9th tier through negotiation with the football authorities rather than any automatic right. Of course, the other thing is that Hereford FC had fairly easy access to a stadium to play in

The example of AFC Wimbledon is a bit different to ours and it could be argued that whatever happened with them was because of the unique circumstances.

 

[mark82]

Would it only be 3 at most?

If it was still Coventry City then the league wouldn't matter too much, not ideal obviously.

From supporters direct site (mostly paragraph 3 & 4 relevant).....

Reformed clubs vs New clubs

A critical issue to decide if you’re setting up a new club is whether the FA will consider your club to be a reformed club or a brand new one. If the latter, you’ll be placed at the lowest level of the senior pyramid where your club can safely be placed. That should be the bottom rung (Step 5 to Step 7) but with a lot of new clubs formed by trusts out of the ashes of their old club, their gates (and away following especially) are much greater than the level is traditionally used too. As a result, if the likelihood of placing a club in certain league is that fans and players safety will be jeopardised because the club they will play just are not capable of handling that size of crowd, then the club can be placed higher up the pyramid, at a suitable position.

Reformed clubs are judged to be essentially the continuation of a club in a new form – the club is dead, long live the club, so to speak! There is nothing set in stone as to what governs whether the FA view a club as a reformation, but several factors will be crucial. How long was it between the old club folding and the other club starting? Does the new club plan to play in the same community? Does it see itself as taking the same fanbase with it?

If the FA decides that a club is a reformation, then it must start at least two divisions lower than where the old club was at liquidation. The exact league will be a mixture of where places are available, where the club can safely be accommodated in terms of its likely supporter base and also whether there is a view that the reformation is the result of a club being liquidated deliberately to avoid or escape debts, or whether creditors have brought the action against a club.

With both of these, there are no hard and fast rules in place, so nothing should ever be assumed. The process of placing a club at any place in the senior pyramid is a function of the background as to why the trust has formed a club, the places available in the league covering that part of the country and the safety issues. For example, AFC Wimbledon started life in the Combined Counties Premier Division, but FC United and Scarborough Athletic started one level down from that in the North West Counties and Northern Counties East League second tiers respectively. Contrast that with AFC Telford; because they were viewed as a reformed successor to Telford United, they were placed in the Unibond first division, two divisions below where Telford were when they went into liquidation.


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So, essentially, we'd likely only take a 2 step drop as a true reformation. No way you'd want even a percentage of our fan base turning up much lower than that either way.

 

[Captain Dart]

From supporters direct site (mostly paragraph 3 & 4 relevant).....

Reformed clubs vs New clubs

A critical issue to decide if you’re setting up a new club is whether the FA will consider your club to be a reformed club or a brand new one. If the latter, you’ll be placed at the lowest level of the senior pyramid where your club can safely be placed. That should be the bottom rung (Step 5 to Step 7) but with a lot of new clubs formed by trusts out of the ashes of their old club, their gates (and away following especially) are much greater than the level is traditionally used too. As a result, if the likelihood of placing a club in certain league is that fans and players safety will be jeopardised because the club they will play just are not capable of handling that size of crowd, then the club can be placed higher up the pyramid, at a suitable position.

Reformed clubs are judged to be essentially the continuation of a club in a new form – the club is dead, long live the club, so to speak! There is nothing set in stone as to what governs whether the FA view a club as a reformation, but several factors will be crucial. How long was it between the old club folding and the other club starting? Does the new club plan to play in the same community? Does it see itself as taking the same fanbase with it?

If the FA decides that a club is a reformation, then it must start at least two divisions lower than where the old club was at liquidation. The exact league will be a mixture of where places are available, where the club can safely be accommodated in terms of its likely supporter base and also whether there is a view that the reformation is the result of a club being liquidated deliberately to avoid or escape debts, or whether creditors have brought the action against a club.

With both of these, there are no hard and fast rules in place, so nothing should ever be assumed. The process of placing a club at any place in the senior pyramid is a function of the background as to why the trust has formed a club, the places available in the league covering that part of the country and the safety issues. For example, AFC Wimbledon started life in the Combined Counties Premier Division, but FC United and Scarborough Athletic started one level down from that in the North West Counties and Northern Counties East League second tiers respectively. Contrast that with AFC Telford; because they were viewed as a reformed successor to Telford United, they were placed in the Unibond first division, two divisions below where Telford were when they went into liquidation.


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So, essentially, we'd likely only take a 2 step drop as a true reformation. No way you'd want even a percentage of our fan base turning up much lower than that either way.

Exactly, minimum 4K crowds, probably higher. Might have to be at the Ricoh

 

[kapowaz]

That’s very interesting stuff Mark. From the sounds of things we’d almost certainly be a reformed club, so as Captain Dart says it would depend on our crowd size. I never realised that this was the reason for placing the club in a certain level of the pyramid — not simply ‘stature’ but the implicit size of the fanbase, and so as a safety consideration putting them in a league where most grounds can accommodate their away following.

What’s the capacity of the Butts currently? And what could it potentially be upgraded to?

 

[Captain Dart]

That’s very interesting stuff Mark. From the sounds of things we’d almost certainly be a reformed club, so as Captain Dart says it would depend on our crowd size. I never realised that this was the reason for placing the club in a certain level of the pyramid — not simply ‘stature’ but the implicit size of the fanbase, and so as a safety consideration putting them in a league where most grounds can accommodate their away following.

What’s the capacity of the Butts currently? And what could it potentially be upgraded to?

Ground capacities are on wiki, Butts is c 3K and Boro round 4K

 

[Gary.j]

at the time of the sixfields move I spoke to the top guy at Birmingham county fa re. a phoenix restart ala Wimbledon, the official response was we would have to start at the same tier as cov utd did, 2 tiers below where sphinx and cov utd are now. However, he was very positive and did say that they would negotiate with the other clubs to try to get a higher placing within their system. The potential size of support was also mentioned by him.

Obviously, the op is about the situation should ccfc go under, not a restart while another ccfc exists, but at least you have it from the horses mouth.

 

[stupot07]

From supporters direct site (mostly paragraph 3 & 4 relevant).....

Reformed clubs vs New clubs

A critical issue to decide if you’re setting up a new club is whether the FA will consider your club to be a reformed club or a brand new one. If the latter, you’ll be placed at the lowest level of the senior pyramid where your club can safely be placed. That should be the bottom rung (Step 5 to Step 7) but with a lot of new clubs formed by trusts out of the ashes of their old club, their gates (and away following especially) are much greater than the level is traditionally used too. As a result, if the likelihood of placing a club in certain league is that fans and players safety will be jeopardised because the club they will play just are not capable of handling that size of crowd, then the club can be placed higher up the pyramid, at a suitable position.

Reformed clubs are judged to be essentially the continuation of a club in a new form – the club is dead, long live the club, so to speak! There is nothing set in stone as to what governs whether the FA view a club as a reformation, but several factors will be crucial. How long was it between the old club folding and the other club starting? Does the new club plan to play in the same community? Does it see itself as taking the same fanbase with it?

If the FA decides that a club is a reformation, then it must start at least two divisions lower than where the old club was at liquidation. The exact league will be a mixture of where places are available, where the club can safely be accommodated in terms of its likely supporter base and also whether there is a view that the reformation is the result of a club being liquidated deliberately to avoid or escape debts, or whether creditors have brought the action against a club.

With both of these, there are no hard and fast rules in place, so nothing should ever be assumed. The process of placing a club at any place in the senior pyramid is a function of the background as to why the trust has formed a club, the places available in the league covering that part of the country and the safety issues. For example, AFC Wimbledon started life in the Combined Counties Premier Division, but FC United and Scarborough Athletic started one level down from that in the North West Counties and Northern Counties East League second tiers respectively. Contrast that with AFC Telford; because they were viewed as a reformed successor to Telford United, they were placed in the Unibond first division, two divisions below where Telford were when they went into liquidation.


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So, essentially, we'd likely only take a 2 step drop as a true reformation. No way you'd want even a percentage of our fan base turning up much lower than that either way.

Sorry but this is nonsense. There is no way the FA would place us 2 levels lower in the conference premier. Not gonna happen. There is probably a bit more flexibility for those already in non league on liquidation, as there's less places to fall.

Using your examples

AFC Wimbledon - 9th tier
AFC Telford - 8th tier
Chester - 8th tier
Darlington - 9th tier
Halifax - 8th tier
Fc united - 10th tier

The idea we would be placed in the league below the football league is unrealistic, despite our crowds. The FA would make an example of us as the biggest english club to be liquidated in a bid to warn clubs not to spend beyond their means and get into dire financial trouble.

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