Delayed departure (2 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Why did we wait so long before Mowbray left the club?

He should have been shown the door during last season when it was clear that the clubs promotion hopes were slipping away.

To retain his services so far into this season unfortunately was again ineptitude from the club.

The notion no one could get results with this team and that its doomed for relegation has shown to be nonsense.

Even if we ignore last seasons ineptitude the car crash of errors this season can't be

- pre season transfer shambles
- ridiculous attempt to deploy a wing back system which many of us said would end in disaster
- constant messing with formations and team selection
- allowing budget to be spent on aged players who are not even first team regulars
- often tactically outright
- a playing style destined to lose

Those that seemed to say no one could do better are strangely silent.

Again though this is an example of ownership failure. I've always said sisu are too loyal to managers and too slow to react. Most would have shown him the door once the slump started last season and now we'd be in the championship.

We've played terrible opposition at home and failed to win any under him. We should be competing in and around the top half but instead are having to play catch up,

A wasted 12 games. Some on here said he was a gem. Turns out he was fools gold. Once again too slow to react and a season probably wasted.

Annoying.

 

---

[zuni]

SISU waited for him to walk rather than sack and pay compo...

 

[Grendel]

SISU waited for him to walk rather than sack and pay compo...

They've paid plenty of compensation before so no evidence for that is there.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

I called for an earlier departure.

Not often I'm right to be fair but on this one...


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[Nick]

Fergie couldn't do better

 

[zuni]

They've paid plenty of compensation before so no evidence for that is there.

Yeah get your point, just felt that something was different this time, like they knew he would go for free. He should have gone last season, he cost us at least a top 6, he couldn't fix the break and like you said his decisions were baffling to say the least

 

[Kingokings204]

Grendel, decent post but I don't agree entirely. Yes it was a car crash of a second half of a season and start of this mixed in with some tactical madness etc but he has made the club better in the long run.

He has put ideas forward and was a football man. Mowbrays hasn't been the first to not succeed here and he won't be the last. No one succeeds. In my eyes he gave us some real exciting football and top of the league at Christmas something that has not happened for ages and I enjoyed it. In particular gillingham at home was a real blast for me personally. So enjoyable.

Yes in the end he had to go but he got bogged down and made some strange decisions but he is a good manager and also kept us up whennin my opinion we were going down under Pressley and I think most would agree. You don't mention that he kept us up. My opinion is he did.

Overall I hear what you're saying and it's largely correct but one or two little bits you forget would make the argument a bit fairer. Mainly mowbray kept us up and then top of the league for a bit. A highest ever finish for ages and watching some great football. And all the off field politics he had to deal with wasn't his fault. Must of had an impact.

So there we are

 

[Perryccfc]

You miserable twat it's a Sunday have a day off

 

[clint van damme]

You miserable twat it's a Sunday have a day off

HAHA!! To be fair it's difficult to disagree with anything Grendel has said.
I would add that Mowbray had money to spend on 3 players.
1 has potential, 1 is no better than the player he replaced and 1 can't get near the side.

 

[covcity4life]

Alot of recent success is down to mowbray. His player recruitment. His philosophy we have been training for work years.

Just cos u hate him doesn't mean he did nothing for us. If he'd stayed we would have gone in a similar winning run soon enough

 

[KG7]

HAHA!! To be fair it's difficult to disagree with anything Grendel has said.
I would add that Mowbray had money to spend on 3 players.
1 has potential, 1 is no better than the player he replaced and 1 can't get near the side.

Who is the one that can't get near the side? Turnbull and Jones are the other two I assume...?


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[wingy]

Who is the one that can't get near the side? Turnbull and Jones are the other two I assume...?

Possibly
Ghadzev, who came free I believe.
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[rupert_bear]

Have to agree with Grendel, TM's failure to arrest last season's slump which lasted from December was incredible. I know he was hamstrung a little with the sisu policy but having said that he was allowed to recruit 4 senior players Hunt, Henderson, Ramage and Joe Cole. The first three didn't play 10 games between them.

 

[clint van damme]

yeah, Ghadzev.

 

[Grendel]

Alot of recent success is down to mowbray. His player recruitment. His philosophy we have been training for work years.

Just cos u hate him doesn't mean he did nothing for us. If he'd stayed we would have gone in a similar winning run soon enough

Are you 5 years old?

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Why did we wait so long before Mowbray left the club?

He should have been shown the door during last season when it was clear that the clubs promotion hopes were slipping away.

To retain his services so far into this season unfortunately was again ineptitude from the club.

The notion no one could get results with this team and that its doomed for relegation has shown to be nonsense.

Even if we ignore last seasons ineptitude the car crash of errors this season can't be

- pre season transfer shambles
- ridiculous attempt to deploy a wing back system which many of us said would end in disaster
- constant messing with formations and team selection
- allowing budget to be spent on aged players who are not even first team regulars
- often tactically outright
- a playing style destined to lose

Those that seemed to say no one could do better are strangely silent.

Again though this is an example of ownership failure. I've always said sisu are too loyal to managers and too slow to react. Most would have shown him the door once the slump started last season and now we'd be in the championship.

We've played terrible opposition at home and failed to win any under him. We should be competing in and around the top half but instead are having to play catch up,

A wasted 12 games. Some on here said he was a gem. Turns out he was fools gold. Once again too slow to react and a season probably wasted.

Annoying.

If you look at the posts after last week's defeat at Charlton there are quite a few people on here saying that it was a mistake to give Venus the job until Christmas. He obviously wasn't the answer, was Mowbray in disguise and was someone who had never managed before. One week later no one is calling for him to go, everyone seems content for him to carry on.
Clubs, our own in particular, never seem to have the courage of their convictions and stick by the person who 12 or 18 months ago was going to be the answer to all of their problems. To be fair this time Sisu did not pull the trigger on TM but they have still racked up 7 full time managers in 9 years all who have proved to not be the answer.
I remember you extolling Mowbray's virtues in his early days here with an argument that went along the lines that at last we have a proper manager. Eighteen months on you are sticking the verbal boot into him. So Sisu were wrong to appoint him but you must also have been wrong to have seen him as the real deal. As correct as you were about Bigi?
There is someone else on here who after a 2-0 home win says that Venus is tactically inept. Everyone is entitled to their view. I have watched football for 50 years and played at a fairly low level for 20. I have opinions the same as everyone else but I would recognise that someone whose life has been in football for 40 odd years is going to be vastly superior to mine. To say someone is tactically inept and to recognise this, surely you would have to be tactically superior? Reading the views of some I wonder why they haven't applied for the job themselves (perhaps they have).
To me TM was our best hope of success. He always came across as honest and honourable, a complete contrast to our owners. I was and am sorry he resigned as I didn't feel we were to far from turning things around. No doubt I will be shouted down but I think the recent mini run of success would have achieved by TM too, the pressure would have been relieved, and as he had won his last two games he would be on the verge of being hailed a tactical genius.
Whoever is appointed this time needs to have the support of the board (such as it is) and needs to be given the tools to succeed, one of which will be time to get through any bad spells. If we lose at Walsall next week no doubt Venus' qualification to be a manager will be questironed again.

 

[Paxman II]

If you look at the posts after last week's defeat at Charlton there are quite a few people on here saying that it was a mistake to give Venus the job until Christmas. He obviously wasn't the answer, was Mowbray in disguise and was someone who had never managed before. One week later no one is calling for him to go, everyone seems content for him to carry on.
Clubs, our own in particular, never seem to have the courage of their convictions and stick by the person who 12 or 18 months ago was going to be the answer to all of their problems. To be fair this time Sisu did not pull the trigger on TM but they have still racked up 7 full time managers in 9 years all who have proved to not be the answer.
I remember you extolling Mowbray's virtues in his early days here with an argument that went along the lines that at last we have a proper manager. Eighteen months on you are sticking the verbal boot into him. So Sisu were wrong to appoint him but you must also have been wrong to have seen him as the real deal. As correct as you were about Bigi?
There is someone else on here who after a 2-0 home win says that Venus is tactically inept. Everyone is entitled to their view. I have watched football for 50 years and played at a fairly low level for 20. I have opinions the same as everyone else but I would recognise that someone whose life has been in football for 40 odd years is going to be vastly superior to mine. To say someone is tactically inept and to recognise this, surely you would have to be tactically superior? Reading the views of some I wonder why they haven't applied for the job themselves (perhaps they have).
To me TM was our best hope of success. He always came across as honest and honourable, a complete contrast to our owners. I was and am sorry he resigned as I didn't feel we were to far from turning things around. No doubt I will be shouted down but I think the recent mini run of success would have achieved by TM too, the pressure would have been relieved, and as he had won his last two games he would be on the verge of being hailed a tactical genius.
Whoever is appointed this time needs to have the support of the board (such as it is) and needs to be given the tools to succeed, one of which will be time to get through any bad spells. If we lose at Walsall next week no doubt Venus' qualification to be a manager will be questironed again.

Exactly!

 

[trevelfarandwide]

Why did we wait so long before Mowbray left the club?

He should have been shown the door during last season when it was clear that the clubs promotion hopes were slipping away.

To retain his services so far into this season unfortunately was again ineptitude from the club.

The notion no one could get results with this team and that its doomed for relegation has shown to be nonsense.

Even if we ignore last seasons ineptitude the car crash of errors this season can't be

- pre season transfer shambles
- ridiculous attempt to deploy a wing back system which many of us said would end in disaster
- constant messing with formations and team selection
- allowing budget to be spent on aged players who are not even first team regulars
- often tactically outright
- a playing style destined to lose

Those that seemed to say no one could do better are strangely silent.

Again though this is an example of ownership failure. I've always said sisu are too loyal to managers and too slow to react. Most would have shown him the door once the slump started last season and now we'd be in the championship.

We've played terrible opposition at home and failed to win any under him. We should be competing in and around the top half but instead are having to play catch up,

A wasted 12 games. Some on here said he was a gem. Turns out he was fools gold. Once again too slow to react and a season probably wasted.

Annoying.

And many of us saw a potential collapse on the horizon, even during the heady heights of 1st place in the table at the tail end of last year.

Granted, I haven't attended many matches in the last 5 years, however I saw a tactical fragility in Mowbray's style of play that would either end in a romping win, or a dismal loss. The collapse came about due to a reliance on a tactic that many teams either cottoned on to, or simply stifled into nothingness.

All in all, TM was not suited to League One, in every respect. It's a gritty league, wherein we find teams who are short of stars, but full of competitive, stubborn, determined footballers whose managers want them in the Championship.

Is MV a man with similar ambitions? I believe he is. He might be a bit of an arsehole, but if he gets this team gelled and at least wanting to win for each other, he's the man we need. Time will tell, but I have an instinctive tingle in my bones.

 

[Grendel]

If you look at the posts after last week's defeat at Charlton there are quite a few people on here saying that it was a mistake to give Venus the job until Christmas. He obviously wasn't the answer, was Mowbray in disguise and was someone who had never managed before. One week later no one is calling for him to go, everyone seems content for him to carry on.
Clubs, our own in particular, never seem to have the courage of their convictions and stick by the person who 12 or 18 months ago was going to be the answer to all of their problems. To be fair this time Sisu did not pull the trigger on TM but they have still racked up 7 full time managers in 9 years all who have proved to not be the answer.
I remember you extolling Mowbray's virtues in his early days here with an argument that went along the lines that at last we have a proper manager. Eighteen months on you are sticking the verbal boot into him. So Sisu were wrong to appoint him but you must also have been wrong to have seen him as the real deal. As correct as you were about Bigi?
There is someone else on here who after a 2-0 home win says that Venus is tactically inept. Everyone is entitled to their view. I have watched football for 50 years and played at a fairly low level for 20. I have opinions the same as everyone else but I would recognise that someone whose life has been in football for 40 odd years is going to be vastly superior to mine. To say someone is tactically inept and to recognise this, surely you would have to be tactically superior? Reading the views of some I wonder why they haven't applied for the job themselves (perhaps they have).
To me TM was our best hope of success. He always came across as honest and honourable, a complete contrast to our owners. I was and am sorry he resigned as I didn't feel we were to far from turning things around. No doubt I will be shouted down but I think the recent mini run of success would have achieved by TM too, the pressure would have been relieved, and as he had won his last two games he would be on the verge of being hailed a tactical genius.
Whoever is appointed this time needs to have the support of the board (such as it is) and needs to be given the tools to succeed, one of which will be time to get through any bad spells. If we lose at Walsall next week no doubt Venus' qualification to be a manager will be questironed again.

Actually what I have consistently said is football management by its very nature is a short term business. Selection and success is often based on fortune. The club were fortunate when they recruited robins as an example.

I have no loyalty to any player or manager - as they don't to clubs. Of course you applaud success but when you observe that failings are starting they very rarely turn this around. So it's perfectly legitimate to call for a sacking of you feel the manager will detrimentally impact league position - as he clearly was.

Also as I've stated many times managers recruited by these owners have generally lasted longer than prior regimes. Look at Coleman, Presley, thorn and Mowbray and compare games managed to the likes of Gould, Mackey, neilson, Reid, black etc. In fact the one manager we let continue when the demise really set in - strachan - shows the folly of the argument.

I really don't know why you mention Bigi. He's not even one of the best midfielders at a struggling league one club. Odd.

Also to say one can't actually raise concerns regarding tactics is ludicrous. All fans have opinions it's what the game is built on. My main observation was he was outmanoeuvred on several occasions.

He failed. He was taking us down. As did strachan and as did thorn - because the club decided we wanted to keep them. I've always said you need to know when to sack a manager even if a few months ago he was the greatest on earth.

 

[covcity4life]

Are you 5 years old?

Good 1

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Actually what I have consistently said is football management by its very nature is a short term business. Selection and success is often based on fortune. The club were fortunate when they recruited robins as an example.

I have no loyalty to any player or manager - as they don't to clubs. Of course you applaud success but when you observe that failings are starting they very rarely turn this around. So it's perfectly legitimate to call for a sacking of you feel the manager will detrimentally impact league position - as he clearly was.

Also as I've stated many times managers recruited by these owners have generally lasted longer than prior regimes. Look at Coleman, Presley, thorn and Mowbray and compare games managed to the likes of Gould, Mackey, neilson, Reid, black etc. In fact the one manager we let continue when the demise really set in - strachan - shows the folly of the argument.

I really don't know why you mention Bigi. He's not even one of the best midfielders at a struggling league one club. Odd.

Also to say one can't actually raise concerns regarding tactics is ludicrous. All fans have opinions it's what the game is built on. My main observation was he was outmanoeuvred on several occasions.

He failed. He was taking us down. As did strachan and as did thorn - because the club decided we wanted to keep them. I've always said you need to know when to sack a manager even if a few months ago he was the greatest on earth.

Sounds plausible until you look at where our policy of hire and fire has got us, to the bottom of the third division. Why, just once, can we not stick with a manager, who at one stage the powers that be thought was the answer, and see where we get to. You can't say it will take us to relegation as every every manager we have, ironically, with the exception of Mowbray, leaves us in a worse position than when they started. The obvious examples of giving managers time are Ferguson and Wenger. They were given the time to Mould those clubs the way they wanted. At the other end of the scale have been Gradi at Crewe and Tidsdale at Exeter. At our own club you will remember Highfield Road absolutely ringing with chants of "Milne Out". However the board at the time stood by him and he produced the best Coventry team that I am likely to see in my lifetime. Milne had 6 or 7 years, signed Tommy Hutch and produced "that" team. Noel Cantwell given nearly 5 years including his first two desperate seasons fighting relegation, got us a top 6 finish and a place in Europe. Jimmy Hill, nothing in his first season, missed out on promotion from a strong position in his second and then delivered two promotions in the next 4 years, given 5 and a half years. Even Strachan, probably reviled on here, had 5 years and produced high quality entertaining teams before we were relegated. Who is to say that if left in charge we would not have got a play off place if left to carry on? If the various board members at the time had done what you advocate, the good things that happened later(Strachan excepted) may not have happened.
–Yes, some of these examples are from a long time ago but so what. If a manager is good and knows what he is doing, give him time. I am pretty sure that in today's climate Ferguson would have been sacked before he brought the years of success that United have had.
I don't expect people not to have opinions on managers and tactics, everyone does myself included. I liked Mowbray and Robbins because under them we played mostly slick attacking football. I was bored senseless watching Pressley's teams in the season he went. However I am pretty sure Pressley has forgotten more about football than I will ever know. I would never feel comfortable therefore saying that Venus yesterday is tactically inept as someone on here said. I thought yesterday we were out muscled for long periods, Rochdale having much more of the ball. The fact is, despite this we won looking far more likely to score than Rochdale, but Venus is still "tactically inept".
I agree with your comment about loyalty among players and managers. The only real loyalty to a club is given by the fans. However, in the case of managers what do you expect when some are only given a handful of games before they get the bullet.
Bigi was mentioned as an example that you, like me and the rest of us, are not always right!

 

[dongonzalos]

• Gordon Strachan (1996–2001)
• Roland Nilsson (2001–2002)
• Steve Ogrizovic & Trevor Peake (caretakers) (2002)
• Gary McAllister (2002–2003)
• Eric Black (2003–2004)
• Steve Ogrizovic (caretaker) (2004)
• Peter Reid (2004–2005)
• Adrian Heath (caretaker) (2005)
• Micky Adams (2005–2007)
• Adrian Heath (caretaker) (2007)
• Iain Dowie (2007–2008)
• Frankie Bunn & John Harbin(caretakers) (2008)
• Chris Coleman (2008–2010)
• Aidy Boothroyd (2010–2011)
• Steve Harrison & Andy Thorn(caretakers) (2011)
• Andy Thorn (2011–2012)
• Richard Shaw & Lee Carsley(caretakers) (2012)
• Mark Robins (2012–2013)
• Lee Carsley (caretaker) (2013)
• Steven Pressley (2013–2015)
• Neil MacFarlane & Dave Hockaday (caretakers) (2015)
• Tony Mowbray (2015–2016
• Mark Venus 2016-

 

[dongonzalos]

Arsène Wenger 20 years, 22 days
Paul Tisdale 10 years, 119 days
Paul Hurst 5 years, 214 days
Jim Bentley 5 years, 163 days
Steve Davis 4 years, 348 days
Gareth Ainsworth 4 years, 29 days
Neal Ardley 4 years, 13 days
Eddie Howe 4 years, 10 days
Sean Dyche 3 years, 359 days
Mick McCarthy 3 years, 357 days
Keith Hill 3 years, 275 days
Simon Grayson 3 years, 248 days
Phil Brown 3 years, 212 days
Mark Hughes 3 years, 146 days
Aitor Karanka 2 years, 345 days
David Flitcroft 2 years, 319 days
Martin Allen 2 years, 218 days
Darrell Clarke 2 years, 209 days [20]
Mauricio Pochettino......

 

[Hadji10]

Alot of recent success is down to mowbray. His player recruitment. His philosophy we have been training for work years.

Just cos u hate him doesn't mean he did nothing for us. If he'd stayed we would have gone in a similar winning run soon enough

Hahahaha, what was this philosophy? Giving away god awful goals and losing every week? The upturn in form changed as soon as Mowbray walked and there is absolutely no coincidence in that. He was an awful manager. End of story.

 

[singers_pore]

For once I agree with Grendel. It was obvious that TM lost his desire for the job way back in Jan-Feb time. I don't blame him for that but there is no point keeping a manager who is unhappy with what's going on around him.

 

[Alan Dugdales Moustache]

Those that seemed to say no one could do better are strangely silent.

If they had, would you be on here singling them out for a special mention ? No.

 

[Brylowes]

Why did we wait so long before Mowbray left the club?

Of

He should have been shown the door during last season when it was clear that the clubs promotion hopes were slipping away.

To retain his services so far into this season unfortunately was again ineptitude from the club.

The notion no one could get results with this team and that its doomed for relegation has shown to be nonsense.

Even if we ignore last seasons ineptitude the car crash of errors this season can't be

- pre season transfer shambles
- ridiculous attempt to deploy a wing back system which many of us said would end in disaster
- constant messing with formations and team selection
- allowing budget to be spent on aged players who are not even first team regulars
- often tactically outright
- a playing style destined to lose

Those that seemed to say no one could do better are strangely silent.

Again though this is an example of ownership failure. I've always said sisu are too loyal to managers and too slow to react. Most would have shown him the door once the slump started last season and now we'd be in the championship.

We've played terrible opposition at home and failed to win any under him. We should be competing in and around the top half but instead are having to play catch up,

A wasted 12 games. Some on here said he was a gem. Turns out he was fools gold. Once again too slow to react and a season probably wasted.

Annoying.

So you are convinced our recent hot streak has more substance and promise than
'Mere" new manager bounce ?
Also.
-pre season transfer shambles
-ridiculous attempt to deploy a wing back system which many of us said would end in failure
-constant messing with formations and team selection
-Allowing budget to be spent on aged players who are not even team regulars
- often tactically outright ?
-a playing style destined to lose

Of the six points raised above, 4 are basically the same thing worded slightly differently,
Good effort though.

 

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

The pressure just got to him he made to many wrong decisions in the bringing in of players(January) and on the pitch( leaving Bigi alone in midfield) 2 of the many things that he got panicked into.

 

[robbiekeane]

So you are convinced our recent hot streak has more substance and promise than
'Mere" new manager bounce ?
Also.
-pre season transfer shambles
-ridiculous attempt to deploy a wing back system which many of us said would end in failure
-constant messing with formations and team selection
-Allowing budget to be spent on aged players who are not even team regulars
- often tactically outright ?
-a playing style destined to lose

Of the six points raised above, 4 are basically the same thing worded slightly differently,
Good effort though.

Which 4?

I think the transfer shambles speaks for itself. The wing back system was pretty much a constant when he was here and everyone said we didnt have the players for it. Messing with formations/team selection is referring to the way he did odd things with the midfield and strikers quite a lot (so not neccesarily related to the wingback thing), and playing style destined to lose in my opinion is how boring and defensive we have been. No attacking fluidity or freedom, every bloody pass was a backwards one trying to play possession football with a team that aren't skillfull enough to do so.

 

[Hobo]

If Grendel is correct (although I think it is an over simplified analysis of football management) the blame lies with either Venus, Fisher or Seppala. Or a combination of the three.

His suggestion that football management is short term overlooks the most successful clubs Manchester United, Arsenal and the continuity of internal promotion Liverpool had in their pomp. Even Crewe went from yearly survival in Division 4 to rise through the Leagues under the consistent stewardship of Dario Gradie and a philosophy of developing their own young players.

Grendel just criticises with the benefit of hindsight. Never backs a player or Manager.

 

[covcity4life]

Hahahaha, what was this philosophy? Giving away god awful goals and losing every week? The upturn in form changed as soon as Mowbray walked and there is absolutely no coincidence in that. He was an awful manager. End of story.

so awful he gave us our best finish in league 1?

as i always said just little tweaks required to get us going,venus has made them, mowbray would have too. after all we didnt lose many under him,just drew.

 

[Otis]

so awful he gave us our best finish in league 1?

as i always said just little tweaks required to get us going,venus has made them, mowbray would have too. after all we didnt lose many under him,just drew.

I think Mowbray was a good manager who just ran out of steam.

 

[covcity4life]

I think Mowbray was a good manager who just ran out of steam.

yeah, if he didnt have anything left to go then fair play to him, i would have liked him to stay though. but last year was best cov fans have experienced since colemans fa cup run. so thank you TM!

 

[Grendel]

If Grendel is correct (although I think it is an over simplified analysis of football management) the blame lies with either Venus, Fisher or Seppala. Or a combination of the three.

His suggestion that football management is short term overlooks the most successful clubs Manchester United, Arsenal and the continuity of internal promotion Liverpool had in their pomp. Even Crewe went from yearly survival in Division 4 to rise through the Leagues under the consistent stewardship of Dario Gradie and a philosophy of developing their own young players.

Grendel just criticises with the benefit of hindsight. Never backs a player or Manager.

I frequently back players and if a manager is successful I back them.

It's pretty absurd to compare us to Manchester United and the majority of arsenal fans have wanted Wenger removed for some considerable time.

You quoted (I think it was you) Milne as a success but other than, granted, a highly successful season the team was no more successful than the 80's or 90's when we went through a plethora of managers.

I started a thread last December I believe saying that Mowbray needs to start to address issues and if not the club need to take action. That I believe was foresight and it was ultimately correct. I was pilloried for it by the usual suspects as indeed when I said the appointment of thorn as manager was the worst appointment the club had ever made.

 

[Hadji10]

so awful he gave us our best finish in league 1?

as i always said just little tweaks required to get us going,venus has made them, mowbray would have too. after all we didnt lose many under him,just drew.

We were too flying and you accept that 8th place finish? Really?

We were rock bottom when Mowbray left, have you got shares in him or something? Awful manager. He was as bad as Boothroyd and Thorn ffs.