designed and delivered in three years (34 Viewers)

[Nick]

As you said in previous threads, why not open the doors to their application? This will prove how committed or otherwise they are to the project. I think it is another smoke screen, I suspect you do to. The Butts ground has so many problems to turn it into a football stadium that it is probably a genuine no goer. It would be interesting to see how far Sisu godown this path particularly when it starts costing them money.

Which makes the council moving to block it with those terms even stranger surely?

 

---

[georgehudson]

quite so osb58, i said the same about TF in other threads several years ago,
divide & conquer seems to be his modus operandi,
and as regards the thread title of 'd & d in 3 yrs',
imho that is as big an indication of failure as you can get,
in any other industry, if the chairman failed to deliver on such a supposedly vital advancement of the company,
he would be removed
PUSB

 

[Nick]

quite so osb58, i said the same about TF in other threads several years ago,
divide & conquer seems to be his modus operandi,
and as regards the thread title of 'd & d in 3 yrs',
imho that is as big an indication of failure as you can get,
in any other industry, if the chairman failed to deliver on such a supposedly vital advancement of the company,
he would be removed
PUSB

That depends on whether a statement he gives in public is actually the target set by his employer though surely?

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Yes, but then the wider people only get to see 1 side don't they.

For example that thing the other day about the bloke travelling 5,000 miles to protest. People picked up on it, it gets pushed to places like ITV etc. You speak to somebody who only has the Telegraph for their news and see their views and facts etc. For example, how many of the Coventry public are going to hear about the "Open Doors" stuff with the council or Wasps players apparently leaving shite all over a boat?

By all means hammer CCFC, but hammer everything at the same time. Try and get all truths out there, not just selective ones to keep "shareholders" happy. That goes for all sides!

I think all of the local media have been slow in tackling all parties in the part they have played in this debacle. Maybe this is because they are looking after their own vested interests. Having a top flight rugby team to fill their pages and air time and the advertising revenue it brings probably means they are not going to question what a franchise club with no connection to our area is doing here. I would listen to Fisher interviewed by Shane O'Connor in the mornings on the way to work and scream out the questions he should have been asking. The only interviewer who I think gave him a tough time was Lorna Bailey after the Cup defeat to Worcester. She is a City fan so perhaps understood more than most.
However the Telegraph going after Sisu in what ever way they can is all to the good. I don't see it as going after CCFC who increasingly look like being simply a name, a history and a few thousand fans once Sisu have done with us. Whatever the Telegraph do to get at Sisu I am happy with so long as it doesn't harm CCFC. You seem to think that keeping the agitation going is bad. I think it is what is needed.

 

[Nick]

I think all of the local media have been slow in tackling all parties in the part they have played in this debacle. Maybe this is because they are looking after their own vested interests. Having a top flight rugby team to fill their pages and air time and the advertising revenue it brings probably means they are not going to question what a franchise club with no connection to our area is doing here. I would listen to Fisher interviewed by Shane O'Connor in the mornings on the way to work and scream out the questions he should have been asking. The only interviewer who I think gave him a tough time was Lorna Bailey after the Cup defeat to Worcester. She is a City fan so perhaps understood more than most.
However the Telegraph going after Sisu in what ever way they can is all to the good. I don't see it as going after CCFC who increasingly look like being simply a name, a history and a few thousand fans once Sisu have done with us. Whatever the Telegraph do to get at Sisu I am happy with so long as it doesn't harm CCFC. You seem to think that keeping the agitation going is bad. I think it is what is needed.

I'd have no issue with Simon Gilbert becoming a financial guru, infiltrating the financial sector and giving SISU a hiding in their world. I'd congratulate him.

All of this "doesn't harm CCFC" isn't true.

As you say though, they aren't going to question Wasps because of the advertising and they have spoken of CCC are a "stakeholder" apparently.

 

[olderskyblue]

That depends on whether a statement he gives in public is actually the target set by his employer though surely?

I guess that depends on if you believe them to be separate entities or not surely...

 

[skybluetony176]

I'd have no issue with Simon Gilbert becoming a financial guru, infiltrating the financial sector and giving SISU a hiding in their world. I'd congratulate him.

All of this "doesn't harm CCFC" isn't true.

As you say though, they aren't going to question Wasps because of the advertising and they have spoken of CCC are a "stakeholder" apparently.

But all he is doing is reporting on what our owners are or aren't doing. He's not making them do or not do something. He's reporting on an emotion that is already there within the fan base, he's not saying feel this way or the other. The feelings are already there and a response to the action and failures of our owners and those that they've put in charge of the club not a response to the reporting of it. If it's damaging the club you have to look at the source not the reaction to it.

In the same way that if CCC lose the JR and have to pay a gazillion pounds of tax payers money to them that's a reaction to CCC's actions not SISU's. It's cause and effect. In both cases.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

I'd have no issue with Simon Gilbert becoming a financial guru, infiltrating the financial sector and giving SISU a hiding in their world. I'd congratulate him.

All of this "doesn't harm CCFC" isn't true.

As you say though, they aren't going to question Wasps because of the advertising and they have spoken of CCC are a "stakeholder" apparently.

You would hope that some investigation into the financial goings on of Sisu is taking place. I am sure that is is really what they don't want as otherwise why would they be so secretive. I think we will just disagree on what is harming CCFC about the Telegraph campaign as I see no harm what so ever.
On another point it would be good if the Trust could follow up on Fisher's pledge to talk at an open meeting and tie him down to this. It would then be good if specific questions could be prepared so that he is not allowed to get off the hook. I may be wrong, and hope I am, but I just can't see him doing it. It would really be going into the lions den for him, not because he would be treated disrespectfully, I'm sure he wouldn't. It is just that if the questions are carefully prepared and followed up on ( which has never happened in the media, the recent interview with Venus being a case in point), he would have no hiding place.

 

[Nick]

he's not saying feel this way or the other.

You are being a bit naive here.

You do realise that he could write the same story, the same facts in multiple ways and have somebody reading it feeling differently don't you?

If CCC lost the JR, it would be described as SISU Winning and having tax payers money, rather than the council losing it...

 

[Nick]

On another point it would be good if the Trust could follow up on Fisher's pledge to talk at an open meeting and tie him down to this. It would then be good if specific questions could be prepared so that he is not allowed to get off the hook. I may be wrong, and hope I am, but I just can't see him doing it. It would really be going into the lions den for him, not because he would be treated disrespectfully, I'm sure he wouldn't. It is just that if the questions are carefully prepared and followed up on ( which has never happened in the media, the recent interview it's Venus being a case in point), he would have no hiding place.

Agree, maybe Moz can comment or CJ? Call him out.

Maybe try and prevent the silly angry questions and let him be challenged properly.

 

[dongonzalos]

Is it correct that we can apply for planning without having yet made the investment. As long as the rugby club agree to us putting the application in?

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

Have been away on holiday this last week but read this forum from time to time. Kind of let me stand back a little.

The prime function it seems to me of TF is not stadium locating but division management, and that works very well judging from what I see on here. What he says often has an element of truth, and that seed of truth enables fans/media to take different slants on things and there by be disunited and looking at all sorts of the periphery. He lets out little snippets, briefs the SCG and massages their egos and has quiet chats with others who spread his message (yes I know others seem to also). He points the finger elsewhere, aggressively if necessary, throws in phrases he knows will annoy, others that he knows panders to others, It propagates division, ensures there is no real unity against the owners

Both sides of the media make their points, have their agenda, create headlines then frankly do not dig at all, do not get answers to the real questions. Why are SISU still here, what keeps them here..... its all very well saying they are digging heels in but why? Far too much of what is put in print is unsubstantiated opinion - so from that point of view doing FOI's is something better even if it gives us the answer we expect.

I don't think building a new stadium is the priority any more. So frankly not surprised there is no evidence from the FOI's. I think building a combined training and academy base might be the plan and it is all about wealth extraction. Is BPA important to them ? TF talks about stadium, hotel, retail etc but that requires investment protected from the football club, it requires a commonality of thinking/planning that seems now contradictory at best and partnership with others - so not just "political embargos" preventing it what ever that means

I don't believe Wasps will kick us out but I don't think they will rush to give us any better deal either. The rent may well go up. So TF is comfortable with that risk. That means no pressure to get a stadium built

Then there is the sale of Ryton, I think the plan is actually to generate the funds to invest in a training ground & Academy site. The Ryton sale provides the down payment, add to that the probability of grants being available, the possibility of using player sales (justified by saying "building for the future"), the reduced budget against the increased loyalty payments and you have the potential for creating value in the land assets for the club that can be sold probably with a premium to clear the ARVO debt. I wouldn't think any potential buyer would take on the debts of Otium (loans or preference shares) only the assets, ARVO have a charge over all the assets. So not asset stripping no, and not ready to leave yet either.

It could also be a reason why the Trust interest right now was so unwelcome, right now the value of Ryton is its current use not its development use, you cant have a professional team with nowhere to train, buy the assets of CCFC now and it is millions less than it could be. The reaction to the Trust letter was in my opinion, unprofessional, over the top, deliberately misleading and very calculated. Some of the reaction to the enquiry by the Trust on here and in the media quite ill informed and in my view was amusing had it not been so desperate and sad - the one thing it did illustrate was how divided the fans were, preferring to in fight. Division management - is working and TF is a master at it. Don't look here look over there.

Oh and the value of Otium is £1 not hard to provide proof of funds at that level - as Ian 1779 said on another thread its the working capital that is key - but if Cashflow neutral or positive how big a key?

If the above thought on Ryton is correct, the question would be do we forget the stadium, encourage the Ryton sale, expect new training facilities, trust CCFC/SISU to get it built and cross our fingers SISU then sell - history says that's risky. (that probably also means fan ownership will not happen though)

Final thoughts are, its correct all sides need to be held to account, it is correct that some blame lays elsewhere BUT that doesn't actually provide solutions, that will take compromise humility and looking forwards not back. We all know what we expect CCC & Wasps to compromise on what is it that SISU will?

What do you think is the way to tackle them to try and get them out? Do you see mileage in the protests? Do you feel an investigation into their investors would a) be successful in finding out who they are and b) give us any leverage in making things uncomfortable for Sisu?

 

[skybluetony176]

You are being a bit naive here.

You do realise that he could write the same story, the same facts in multiple ways and have somebody reading it feeling differently don't you?

If CCC lost the JR, it would be described as SISU Winning and having tax payers money, rather than the council losing it...

Not naive at all. My emotional response isn't a response to articles in the CT it's a response to what I've witnessed first hand. You naively seem to be saying that his reporting of the damage being done to the club is damaging the club. It isn't. It's a response to the damage being done to the club the same as my emotions are. People aren't marching and boycotting because of CT articles, they're doing it because they want change because of what's happened to the club not because the CT have reported it.

Cause and effect.

 

[skybluetony176]

Is it correct that we can apply for planning without having yet made the investment. As long as the rugby club agree to us putting the application in?

I don't think we even need CRFC's permission to put an application in. Sure someone has made that point before on here before. Obviously it would be wise to do it as a joint application but i don't think it's a requirement.

 

[Nick]

Not naive at all. My emotional response isn't a response to articles in the CT it's a response to what I've witnessed first hand. You naively seem to be saying that his reporting of the damage being done to the club is damaging the club. It isn't. It's a response to the damage being done to the club the same as my emotions are. People aren't marching and boycotting because of CT articles, they're doing it because they want change because of what's happened to the club not because the CT have reported it.

Cause and effect.

It isn't naive to say the telegraph are doing their best to get people worked up is it?

I'd say the whole march and boycott stuff has recently co incided hasn't it?

It is naive to say the telegraph haven't been trying to whip it up.

 

[Nick]

I don't think we even need CRFC's permission to put an application in. Sure someone has made that point before on here before. Obviously it would be wise to do it as a joint application but i don't think it's a requirement.

I think it was said at the time of wasps and higgs on here.

 

[skybluetony176]

It isn't naive to say the telegraph are doing their best to get people worked up is it?

I'd say the whole march and boycott stuff has recently co incided hasn't it?

It is naive to say the telegraph haven't been trying to whip it up.

But that isn't what's damaging CCFC. I think you're being very disingenuous by pretending that this is an action caused by the actions of the CT, because it isn't. It's caused by the actions of our owners and those that they put in charge of our club. I'm sure that the the various supporter groups welcome the support of the CT but to suggest it's a response to something that the CT has "whipped up" is a nonsense. If anything the CT is responding to to the feeling's of fans emotions. Emotions that have been whipped up by what's happened at the club. Still, it's probably easier for you to blame the CT so I shouldn't be surprised by the the emotion it's "whipped up" in you.

 

[Irish Sky Blue]

It isn't naive to say the telegraph are doing their best to get people worked up is it?

I'd say the whole march and boycott stuff has recently co incided hasn't it?

It is naive to say the telegraph haven't been trying to whip it up.

More to do with being bottom of the league, losing another Managing Director, losing another manager, no communication from the board about anything until recently, seeing that Ryton is being ripened for sale with even Venus saying he doesn't know of any plans to replace it yet, having no ground in 18 months with nothing being done to resurrect talks, having no academy at the end of this season, having a laughable infrastructure for a professional sports club (ticket office, shop), a continuation of mis information ("If the Butts project falls through we have another site lined up") and with average gates lower than at any time in living memory. The Telegraph are pushing against an open door as far as I can see. Do you really think that after looking at this list, which could be added to by the way, most supporters have been awakened by the Telegraph petition? I think you need to give people more credit for thinking for themselves. Those that have been woken up by the CT- good, the more the merrier.

 

[clint van damme]

I'd have no issue with Simon Gilbert becoming a financial guru, infiltrating the financial sector and giving SISU a hiding in their world. I'd congratulate him.

All of this "doesn't harm CCFC" isn't true.

As you say though, they aren't going to question Wasps because of the advertising and they have spoken of CCC are a "stakeholder" apparently.

this is what I'd like to see, find out who sisus investors are, what are their other interests, give me something I can boycott or stop buying that affects them not CCFC, give them some bad publicity and make them question their involvement with sisu.

 

[Nick]

But that isn't what's damaging CCFC. I think you're being very disingenuous by pretending that this is an action caused by the actions of the CT, because it isn't. It's caused by the actions of our owners and those that they put in charge of our club. I'm sure that the the various supporter groups welcome the support of the CT but to suggest it's a response to something that the CT has "whipped up" is a nonsense. If anything the CT is responding to to the feeling's of fans emotions. Emotions that have been whipped up by what's happened at the club. Still, it's probably easier for you to blame the CT so I shouldn't be surprised by the the emotion it's "whipped up" in you.

I'm not saying it's the sole reason, I'm saying they are helping it along the way. Of course they are whipping things up, you can't deny that.

Whatever happened to your wasps boycott thread? Didn't they put out a statement saying sisu and you went quiet? Good example really.

I know a bloke who is a forest fan, he texted me about the petition and what was going on.

I said to him about issues since wasps bought the stadium that could prevent buyers, he had absolutely no idea about most of what's happened and didn't even.know wasps were in Coventry.



Look at Dion Dublin today, no idea either but wants to promote something.

 

[skybluetony176]

I'm not saying it's the sole reason, I'm saying they are helping it along the way. Of course they are whipping things up, you can't deny that.

Whatever happened to your wasps boycott thread? Didn't they put out a statement saying sisu and you went quiet? Good example really.

Oh dear. Can't argue the point so start attacking the man.

Have you ever accused SISU of whipping things up? After all it is a reaction to there actions. Try putting the horse before the cart for a change.

I've made lot's of good suggestions on how to protest against Wasps and what over and not just on that one thread that I started. Just today in fact as you well know as you replied to one of my post's about it. So what you mean by this silly load of tosh "Whatever happened to your wasps boycott thread? Didn't they put out a statement saying sisu and you went quiet? Good example really" I don't know. But if it somehow makes you feel that you have won an argument you can have that one on me. It's my charitable nature.

 

[Nick]

Oh dear. Can't argue the point so start attacking the man.

Have you ever accused SISU of whipping things up? After all it is a reaction to there actions. Try putting the horse before the cart for a change.

I've made lot's of good suggestions on how to protest against Wasps and what over and not just on that one thread that I started. Just today in fact as you well know as you replied to one of my post's about it. So what you mean by this silly load of tosh "Whatever happened to your wasps boycott thread? Didn't they put out a statement saying sisu and you went quiet? Good example really" I don't know. But if it somehow makes you feel that you have won an argument you can have that one on me. It's my charitable nature.

The point was media influence wasn't it? It wasn't like I started banging on about political views or what you had for breakfast.

I have often said straight out when things are bullshit, the same as I have often said ways to potentially get at sisu as sisu not at ccfc.

The other day you said you didn't read the telegraph

 

[Esoterica]

Which makes the council moving to block it with those terms even stranger surely?

Why is it strange? They've got SISU in a stranglehold preventing them sorting out anything on the football side within the city. Wasps are supporting the CCC because they're keen to keep the council onside and are reaping the benefit of that. The CT are supporting Wasps because they're getting the benefit from aggressive advertisement revenue as Wasps spread their roots in the city as well as scoring the anti SISU clicks, which work for all the triumvirate. That whole side of it is very clear though.

What's not clear is anything SISU are doing, it's still all smoke, mirrors and diversion. SISU need to find a home for the academy - what's really happening there? SISU need a stadium to play in within 18 months - what's happening there? What's SISUs real plan with Ryton and where is that at?

I think it's natural then, that people feel the onus is on SISU and are much more interested in them and their (in)actions than 'digging' into every other parties behaviour. CCC and Wasps have fucked us over, the most important (not all) unanswered questions remaining are with SISU.

 

[Nick]

Why is it strange? They've got SISU in a stranglehold preventing them sorting out anything on the football side within the city. Wasps are supporting the CCC because they're keen to keep the council onside and are reaping the benefit of that. The CT are supporting Wasps because they're getting the benefit from aggressive advertisement revenue as Wasps spread their roots in the city as well as scoring the anti SISU clicks, which work for all the triumvirate. That whole side of it is very clear though.

What's not clear is anything SISU are doing, it's still all smoke, mirrors and diversion. SISU need to find a home for the academy - what's really happening there? SISU need a stadium to play in within 18 months - what's happening there? What's SISUs real plan with Ryton and where is that at?

I think it's natural then, that people feel the onus is on SISU and are much more interested in them and their (in)actions than 'digging' into every other parties behaviour. CCC and Wasps have fucked us over, the most important (not all) unanswered questions remaining are with SISU.

Surely you would be outraged at the council, wasps and telegraph working together to damage ccfc? (If that's your view)

 

[dongonzalos]

That depends on whether a statement he gives in public is actually the target set by his employer though surely?

Everyone employed on the board leaves either by their own choice or the rumblings suggest they are asked to go.
Except for Mr Fisher.
Why is that?

 

[skybluetony176]

The point was media influence wasn't it? It wasn't like I started banging on about political views or what you had for breakfast.

I have often said straight out when things are bullshit, the same as I have often said ways to potentially get at sisu as sisu not at ccfc.

The other day you said you didn't read the telegraph

I don't. I read the odd article when you put a link up. You must be on a click bait commission from them. I still didn't go quite though as you suggested when they mentioned SISU though did I? I noticed you seem to have glossed over me pointing out the opposite to you.

 

[chickentikkamasala]

Surely you would be outraged at the council, wasps and telegraph working together to damage ccfc? (If that's your view)

I think SISU are doing a good enough job of that to my club CCFC.

 

[Captain Dart]

Is it correct that we can apply for planning without having yet made the investment. As long as the rugby club agree to us putting the application in?

You can apply for planning for any project as long as you tell the current land owner.
You do not even have to get their permission, though you'd be damn silly not to if you want to buy the land.
I do not believe there is a Butts plan, if there is then let Fisher in party with Jon Sharp disclose some details.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

That depends on whether a statement he gives in public is actually the target set by his employer though surely?

He is CEO isn't he? if his employer says differently, he should shut his bloody big gob then!

 

[Esoterica]

Surely you would be outraged at the council, wasps and telegraph working together to damage ccfc? (If that's your view)

I was much angrier with the council for selling the Ricoh than I was the temporary move to Northampton. I don't think they are working together to damage CCFC though but rather protecting themselves and their own interests at our expense. But SISU have caused all that and should have the vested interest in fixing it but won't come clean on any of their plans - the most important questions are still to them.

 

[Grendel]

Is it correct that we can apply for planning without having yet made the investment. As long as the rugby club agree to us putting the application in?

The rugby club could also put the application in.

 

[cloughie]

NIck you said Why not put it to the SCG or the Trust who do have regular contact with him?

your having a laugh the SCG ...a pointless group run by self appointed leader a certain Jonathon Strange. This pompous arrogant individual does not represent me or any other fan I know

 

[cloughie]

Since when does anybody ever believe what Fisher says.... Unless your name is RFC of course.

Or Jonathon Strange

 

[Nick]

NIck you said Why not put it to the SCG or the Trust who do have regular contact with him?

your having a laugh the SCG ...a pointless group run by self appointed leader a certain Jonathon Strange. This pompous arrogant individual does not represent me or any other fan I know

So ask the Trust then? Didn't Fisher offer a fans forum?

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Because, I have no interest in engaging with them.

Why not put it to the SCG or the Trust who do have regular contact with him?

You wouldn't believe the trust any way so better leave it to Mr Strange............
Keep waiting.