Wasps finances 2016 (3 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

Gone over this with him again as I didn't really get it first time round. Seems the way it works is that the bond has certain things guaranteed, so that the investors know their money is safe, and if they don't meet those conditions they've defaulted and in that scenario the bond owners have a claim to what was put up as security. The security is the arena lease and ACL.

There's two interesting guarantees. Firstly that valuation of the arena and shares does not drop below 1.4 times the total debt of Wasps - that's all companies in the group combined. I've always had my doubts about the valuation and now knowing the valuation has to remain high does nothing to ease those doubts. The debt is £34.6m so that would mean the valuation and shares can't drop below £48.4m. The shares are valued at £9.7m so that means the valuation of the arena can't drop below £38.7m. And of course it means taking out any more debt, lets say to build houses or a training ground, would be an issue.

Secondly the ebitda from June 2017 onwards must be 1.5 times the groups finance costs. Ebitda before tax, interest payments and similar. The ebitda from this set of accounts is a £2.2m loss. Finance costs were £3.1m in these accounts so using that figure by June 2017 they need to turn a £2.2m loss into a £4.7m profit, that's a turnaround of £6.9m by June - seems a pretty tough task to me.

He asked an interesting question to which I don't know the answer. Do either CCC or SISU own a big chunk of the bonds?

CCC won't. They wouldn't be allowed to invest in something so risky. Who knows about SISU, remember it being mentioned on here at the time.

 

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[dongonzalos]

The hint is towards Cov not signing any long term deals at the Ricoh. Or do anything that may financially assist Wasps with the hope that their financial model collapses and we gain control of ACL.
I get the theory of this and some of it makes sense. It definitely makes sense to me if I was employed by SISU.
However my thought process is as a Cov city fan and from this perspective the alarm bells begin to sound.
Quite a few have looked at Wasps accounts and suggested with are quite insignificant with our 100k a year rent.
So if Wasps believe this is the policy we are taking they are likely to do one of two things......

Their first aim will be to secure us to a long term deal otherwise we are just a hassle as oppose to a benefit to their business.
Their only leverage in securing us to a long term deal is holding off as long as possible without negotiation with us and definitely not securing any short term deals with us. To agree a short term deal they fulfil our plan to sit and wait at minimal cost.
Their biggest weapon in this, is that we need somewhere to play. So they will have to be prepared to not allow us to extend our rental unless it is long term. Otherwise we will just call their bluff.
So that leads to us, If following this idea we will not want to sign up long term. So we will need a back up plan for this = moving away.
If what many believe is true that the council and Wasps are in cohorts. The BPA will not be a viable option.

So the only thing for us to do will be move away again.

For SISU it is possibly a risk worth taking. Their main concern will be that the club doesn't cost them anything. So they will need a rental deal that covers crowds of 2k or less.
As a fan we know what this will mean in terms of cuts to the playing squad. Also as a fan we know what long term damage this will do to the fan base.

Wasps I think will let us go as they will just pick off the disillusioned fans instead. They will then work their asses off on housing project and the like to keep their business viable.

Personally as a fan this would be a very bad way to go.

 

[italiahorse]

The hint is towards Cov not signing any long term deals at the Ricoh. Or do anything that may financially assist Wasps with the hope that their financial model collapses and we gain control of ACL.
I get the theory if this and some of it makes sense. It definitely makes sense to me if I was employed by SISU.
However my thought process is as a Cov city fan and from this perspective the alarm bells begin to sound.
Quite a few have looked at Wasps accounts and suggested with are quite insignificant with our 100k a year rent.
So if Wasps believe this is the policy we are taking they are likely to do one if two things......

Their first aim will be to secure us to a long term deal otherwise we are just a hassle as oppose to a benefit to their business.
There only leverage in securing us to a long term deal is holding off as long as possible without negotiation with us and definitely not securing any short term deals with us. To agree a short term deal they fulfil our plan to sit and wait at minimal cost.
Their biggest weapon in this, is that we need somewhere to play. So they will have to be prepared to not allow us to extend our rental unless it is long term. Otherwise we will just call their bluff.
So that leads to us, If following this idea we will not want to sign up long term. So we will need a back up plan for moving away.
If what many believe is true that the council abd Wasps are in cohorts. The BPA will not be a viable option.

So the only thing for us to do will be move away again.
For SISU it is possibly a risk worth taking. Their main concern will be that the club doesn't cost them anything. So they will need a rental deal that covers crowds of 2k or less.
As a fan we know what this will mean in terms of cuts to the playing squad. Also as a fan we know what long term damage this will do to the fan base.
Wasps I think will let us go as they will just pick off the disillusioned fans instead. They will then work their asses off on housing project and the like to keep their business viable.
Personally as a fan this would be a bad way to go

Or Wasps put the rent up for a short term deal to £500K a year with no additional incomes.
They also offer a long term deal at £250K with access to incomes.
Stick or Twist ?

 

[Grendel]

The hint is towards Cov not signing any long term deals at the Ricoh. Or do anything that may financially assist Wasps with the hope that their financial model collapses and we gain control of ACL.
I get the theory if this and some of it makes sense. It definitely makes sense to me if I was employed by SISU.
However my thought process is as a Cov city fan and from this perspective the alarm bells begin to sound.
Quite a few have looked at Wasps accounts and suggested with are quite insignificant with our 100k a year rent.
So if Wasps believe this is the policy we are taking they are likely to do one if two things......

Their first aim will be to secure us to a long term deal otherwise we are just a hassle as oppose to a benefit to their business.
There only leverage in securing us to a long term deal is holding off as long as possible without negotiation with us and definitely not securing any short term deals with us. To agree a short term deal they fulfil our plan to sit and wait at minimal cost.
Their biggest weapon in this, is that we need somewhere to play. So they will have to be prepared to not allow us to extend our rental unless it is long term. Otherwise we will just call their bluff.
So that leads to us, If following this idea we will not want to sign up long term. So we will need a back up plan for moving away.
If what many believe is true that the council abd Wasps are in cohorts. The BPA will not be a viable option.

So the only thing for us to do will be move away again.
For SISU it is possibly a risk worth taking. Their main concern will be that the club doesn't cost them anything. So they will need a rental deal that covers crowds of 2k or less.
As a fan we know what this will mean in terms of cuts to the playing squad. Also as a fan we know what long term damage this will do to the fan base.
Wasps I think will let us go as they will just pick off the disillusioned fans instead. They will then work their asses off on housing project and the like to keep their business viable.
Personally as a fan this would be a bad way to go

We would be consigned forever o mediocrity and probably sisu as owners of we agreed a long term deal.

Anyway this is purely a discussion on wasps and their business model.

 

[Grendel]

Or Wasps put the rent up for a short term deal to £500K a year with no additional incomes.
They also offer a long term deal at £250K with access to incomes.
Stick or Twist ?

Which they won't do so why are you lying.

 

[italiahorse]

Which they won't do so why are you lying.

It's something that could happen and an opinion.
Your stating they won't do it, so how do you know ?
Or are you lying ?
:finger:

 

[italiahorse]

We would be consigned forever o mediocrity and probably sisu as owners of we agreed a long term deal.

Anyway this is purely a discussion on wasps and their business model.

Okay Brain of Britain.
What should CCFC do?
Put your head above the precipice and become the target for a change.

 

[Grendel]

It's something that could happen and an opinion.
Your stating they won't do it, so how do you know ?
Or are you lying ?
:finger:

It's an opinion that tried to make wasps look like good guys whereas the evidence of their behaviour is that they will screw us for all we are worth.

 

[dongonzalos]

We would be consigned forever o mediocrity and probably sisu as owners of we agreed a long term deal.

Anyway this is purely a discussion on wasps and their business model.

That's good it's in the right thread then. Thanks

 

[Captain Dart]

He asked an interesting question to which I don't know the answer. Do either CCC or SISU own a big chunk of the bonds?

It would be worth a FOI to CCC if you think it is a possibility.

 

[italiahorse]

It's an opinion that tried to make wasps look like good guys whereas the evidence of their behaviour is that they will screw us for all we are worth.

What evidence ?
They are just businessmen maximising their profits.
Unfortunately for us they hold all the cards.
At the moment we pay £100K to rent the stadium and get £75K back. It's a bargain.
Wasps will without doubt put it up but it's up to CCFC to get the best deal short or long term.
We will get a better deal if we commit long term and Wasps will be able to maximise their business plan.
If we do, many areas including stadium naming and other sponsorship deals (clearly being held back due to the possible bad publicity if CCFC leave or appear to be forced out)
You can see why some CCFC fans are against any deal that helps Wasps but it's all that is available unless you believe Sisu can build a stadium.
Who knows if we embed ourselves with Wasps they may need at some point to get us to buy in to spread the risk. Or perhaps a Chinese billionaire might buy the lot !!
I don't think that SISU/CCFC could firstly obtain the Ricoh at the right price and secondly be able to run it finacially from L1.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Gone over this with him again as I didn't really get it first time round. Seems the way it works is that the bond has certain things guaranteed, so that the investors know their money is safe, and if they don't meet those conditions they've defaulted and in that scenario the bond owners have a claim to what was put up as security. The security is the arena lease and ACL.

There's two interesting guarantees. Firstly that valuation of the arena and shares does not drop below 1.4 times the total debt of Wasps - that's all companies in the group combined. I've always had my doubts about the valuation and now knowing the valuation has to remain high does nothing to ease those doubts. The debt is £34.6m so that would mean the valuation and shares can't drop below £48.4m. The shares are valued at £9.7m so that means the valuation of the arena can't drop below £38.7m. And of course it means taking out any more debt, lets say to build houses or a training ground, would be an issue.

Secondly the ebitda from June 2017 onwards must be 1.5 times the groups finance costs. Ebitda before tax, interest payments and similar. The ebitda from this set of accounts is a £2.2m loss. Finance costs were £3.1m in these accounts so using that figure by June 2017 they need to turn a £2.2m loss into a £4.7m profit, that's a turnaround of £6.9m by June - seems a pretty tough task to me.

He asked an interesting question to which I don't know the answer. Do either CCC or SISU own a big chunk of the bonds?

Again good points CD

I would add a couple of things

- the joint venture between ACL & Compass - IEC Experience Ltd - is not party to any guarantee so its not all group companies under pinning the Bonds. IEC is the trading part of the Group covering the conferences, events, F&B, Hotel etc and has a long term contract with ACL
- I don't think that the property development company is actually a Wasps Holdings Group member (it is a related company) so the Group wont be raising the finance as such
- the bond guarantee didn't stop Wasps Group raising an unsecured loan of £750k from HSBC during 2016 that is repayable over 3 years
- in theory the Group should be keeping a register of bond holders so should be monitoring the names and any unusual patterns or large holdings building up

 

[stupot07]

What evidence ?
They are just businessmen maximising their profits.
Unfortunately for us they hold all the cards.
At the moment we pay £100K to rent the stadium and get £75K back. It's a bargain.
Wasps will without doubt put it up but it's up to CCFC to get the best deal short or long term.
We will get a better deal if we commit long term and Wasps will be able to maximise their business plan.
If we do, many areas including stadium naming and other sponsorship deals (clearly being held back due to the possible bad publicity if CCFC leave or appear to be forced out)
You can see why some CCFC fans are against any deal that helps Wasps but it's all that is available unless you believe Sisu can build a stadium.
Who knows if we embed ourselves with Wasps they may need at some point to get us to buy in to spread the risk. Or perhaps a Chinese billionaire might buy the lot !!
I don't think that SISU/CCFC could firstly obtain the Ricoh at the right price and secondly be able to run it finacially from L1.

There is no evidence to suggest we would get a better deal if we committed long term. Wasps are their to maximise their income, if they can get £500k pa short term, why wouldnt they also want it long term. They have a £4m black hole to make up, they need every penny.

They won't buy the club. Buying thr club won't spread risk, it will increase risk - football clubs are money pits that lose shed loads of money.

We need to evaluate all options and that means in all probability another short term contract to enable us to do so.

We need go forget the current deal, that was negotiated by acls former owners and it expires next summer - as you say any new deal it won't be anywhere near the current terms so its pointless talking about what a bargain it is.


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[italiahorse]

There is no evidence to suggest we would get a better deal if we committed long term. Wasps are their to maximise their income, if they can get £500k pa short term, why wouldnt they also want it long term. They have a £4m black hole to make up, they need every penny.

They won't buy the club. Buying thr club won't spread risk, it will increase risk - football clubs are money pits that lose shed loads of money.

We need to evaluate all options and that means in all probability another short term contract to enable us to do so.

We need go forget the current deal, that was negotiated by acls former owners and it expires next summer - as you say any new deal it won't be anywhere near the current terms so its pointless talking about what a bargain it is.


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IMHO they want CCFC sorted long term.
Yes they will maximise their income but it's getting the balance right for both parties. Clearly ACL got it wrong the first time round.
Charge too much rent and it forces CCFC to consider other options and Wasps loose and income. Potentially very lucrative if we go up the leagues.
CCFC is currently not a money pit (Break even ?). But fans expectations make this unacceptable who ever the owners are (Pressure for a money pit).
I thought the deal finishes the summer after next ?

 

[stupot07]

I means summer next season yes July 2018.

Didn't we lose £2m last season? What happens of we fluke promotion? FFP rules go from limiting spend as % of turnover to being able to make £13m losses. How would wasps fund this? I think you need to accept they won't be buying us.

I have no doubt that wasps want to tie us in long term probably with no breakout clause so they can milk us to help pay off their debt.

What i don't believe is that they will give us a significantly better deal if we sign long term over short term, or that they will give us special treatment (access to revenues, etc) on the off chance we get in the premier league - thats not to say they won't want a sliding scale rent, as I imagine they will so they can further milk us if we get promoted. They will charge us thr maximum they can get away with as they can IMHO.

And if we're being honest. They don't seem that bothered about us committing long term. If they were they would drop the 'legal noise' cherade and try and pin thr club down.

IMO, they are trying to distress the club and put them in the position to force them into having to agree a new deal on unfavourable terms.


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[chiefdave]

Or Wasps put the rent up for a short term deal to £500K a year with no additional incomes.
They also offer a long term deal at £250K with access to incomes.

Awesome, a choice between a 150% increase or 400% increase.

At the moment we pay £100K to rent the stadium and get £75K back. It's a bargain.

Its also a hugely misleading figure. The more relevant figure would be the net total amount paid to ACL by CCFC.

 

[dongonzalos]

For me it seems to be choice between crowds of 2000 in another city again. Whilst SISU hope Wasps's business models fails over 5-10 years.
Or doing something to try and get a decent long term deal.

 

[stupot07]

For me it seems to be choice between crowds of 2000 in another city again. Whilst SISU hope Wasps's business models fails over 5-10 years.
Or doing something to try and get a decent long term deal.

Or just do another short term deal at the Ricoh.

Or get permission to play at the butts with temporary stands

There are more choices than merely:

A) Long term at the Ricoh

Vs

B) Playing in another town/city in front of 2k fans

That you have suggested

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[Grendel]

For me it seems to be choice between crowds of 2000 in another city again. Whilst SISU hope Wasps's business models fails over 5-10 years.
Or doing something to try and get a decent long term deal.

So we can't agree a two year deal at the stadium? Why?

 

[dongonzalos]

So we can't agree a two year deal at the stadium? Why?

Negotiations are going well, sure it will be agreed any day soon