liquidation looms, admin if we are lucky (2 Viewers)

[howzer]

not kidding, we are going into one or the other.

Do not be fooled by the resignation of orange Ken, or the decision by Clarke to act as independant!! or anything else that is taking place in the revolving door of the ricoh circus. they are positioning themselves for when the club is liquidated in my opinion, they are avoiding being banned from being directors or ceos of business in the future.

the real problem for me is how the owners are able to put the clubs debts into another company and then treat it as a loan to the club?? this millstone is what will kill our club, no investor will take a club on with a 30 million pound debt, its just not realistic, therefore the owners can only be doing one thing and that is positioning themselves and their investors for a way out of the club without losing their money or their futures as directors and associates of businesses.

I think administration is without question and will be anounced in the next 7 to 10 days

I am sure we are about to get an anouncement in the next 4 weeks saying the club are being liquidated as administrators refuse to administrate the club, and do not be surprised if the club are put under investgiation for financial mis-dealings when the administrator looks into our cayman island business and accounts, the other businesses in the clubs interests and the way in which the club have staved off paying off the debts, which has been illegal.

going into administration is just the start i have a horrible feeling about ccfc i really do, i wonder if we will still be in existence by the start of next season.

 

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[coundonskyblue]

Opinion or heard something?

 

[Sub]

any more info howzer on how and why ??

 

[torchomatic]

Scaremongering by Howzer, I reckon. Nothing more than that. I could realistically see Administration one day, but liquidation? Nah.

 

[howzer]

its simply my opinion i havent heard anything, i have been in business though my knowledge of business is not as great as some other members here, but the actions of the board and the owners speak volumes, you have ask the question, why is it Ken resigns now? he did this at southampton and what is it that Ken does for a living ... he winds companys down professionally. Why would Clark make himself an independant from the board? that is the type of manouvre that director do if they want to avoid being banned from acting as a director by the courts when liquidating a business, his actions alone frighten me.

More than that though is the cayman island business, thats for tax purposes ... so money is being removed from the company and they are making on the tax... this points to a wholesale of players and the owners get there cash tax free... pointing towards a jump off.

The debts are held in yet another company, meaning the directors of that company will take the fall whilest sisu directors continue unafected.

It all points to one thing.. the directors are positioning themselves for the out. SISU are going no doubt about it, but are we going to be taken over or are we heading for liquidation/admin??? well ask yourself this question, knowing the club are 30 million in debt who is it other than a billionaire that would be considering buying the club? multi millionaires do not have enough capital due to the debt being so high so that them out of it. And, what billionaire would be interested in buying a club that firstly is not a premier league club, second a club heading into league 1 and third a club that is bound to be investigated by HM Custom and more than likely investigated by all kinds and sundries for all kinds of irregular business practices.

it isnt looking good for us now, but i think it can get much much worse, unfortunately for us the actions of sisu, the chairmans resignation and clarkes actions all points to the shit hitting the fan quite soon.

 

[Senior Vick from Alicante]

Their is no point starting a thread that will make supporters shit themselves without substantiating your claims. For one how can the club go into liquidation in your pinion and have a debt to service that you refer too in paragraph 2? People should report cold hard facts as its this type of thread that pisses on everyone's chips. If the club was liquidated and their was a 30 million debt in another company it would be owned by SISU or one of their holding companys theirfore they would have to service it surely? The only way SISU will get anything back of their original funding is to sell as a going concern or refinance the club to build for the future. I believe they will sell as their credibility is at stake, the caviat to this is that they will only sell if their is some kind of clause included to give them ongoing divedends in the future. JMO PUSB

 

[Cornwallskyblue]

I can totaly totaly understand what you are saying but im sure it wont come to liquidation but know its a possibility. It is all in sisu's hands they hold the key. I hate them and them staying quiet is making it all worse.

 

[howzer]

hi torch, .. but can you give your thoughts on why you do not think Liquidation could take place? we are bankcrupt afterall



Four former directors of Luton Town Football Club handed disqualifications
Four former directors of Luton Town Football Club Limited (“LTFC”) were disqualified from acting as directors or in any way managing or controlling limited companies for periods ranging from three to seven years On 5 September 2011, following a six-day trial at the High Court in London. The disqualifications follow an investigation and proceedings brought by The Insolvency Service.
William John Tomlins, the former Chairman of LTFC was disqualified for six years, Derek Robert Peter, the former Chief Executive Officer and a qualified Chartered Accountant was disqualified for seven years, with Richard Sidney Bagehot,and John Mitchell each being disqualified for three years.


this is what they are positioning themselves to avoid

 

[howzer]

the debt as you call it, is actually officially a loan to CCFC. the club not the owners owe the 30 million. dont get mixed up with the club CCFC and sisu they are 2 seperate identities, sisu have distanced themselves legally from the debt, even if they were to sell the debt would still be that of Coventry City Football Club, not SISU.

When a business opens and transfers a business to the cayman islands it should have us fans shuddering

 

[smileycov]

I dont buy it either! IMO, SISU got this club for nowt, when the shares were given up. They have sold mortgaged anything they can. They have made money, the 30mill never actually left it just gets moved around. Even with our poor following the sale alone of players and the signing on of the shite at low salary's means they have made money. They will sell beacuse there is allways someone interested in buying. Hoff, Keys & Clarke love the club and will not let it go down. The question is who has the balls big enough to hold out. I bet SISU, hard nosed businessmen who care frig all about CCFC, they hold the aces. They will get say 10 mill, debts handed over plus the years the have ponced off this club. Nice pay out thank you very much. Honestly add up all our sales and the poor wages we now pay. They have done allright over the years.....when have they lashed out the dosh? Never. They know what they (and allways have) been doing, they wont lose out....we will be okay, just gonna have to start again from a long way back thats all.

 

[kg82]

We're not bankrupt, we're operating at a loss, there's a difference. Bankruptcy is being judged by law to not be able to pay outstanding debts.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

I think some words of wisdom from OSB are called for here. :thinking about:

 

[howzer]

er................. £30 million pounds of debt are still not paid off...

We cant pay these outstanding debts because CCFC owe them, ccfc holdings ltd. NOT SISU when will poeple get that? sisu can walk away right now. It is our club that own the debt, sisu LOANED the debt to CCFC ... get it??? its all legal ..just

 

[howzer]

Bankruptcy – what does it mean?

Bankruptcy is one way of dealing with debts you can’t pay. Your assets can be used to pay your creditors (people you owe money to). You are subject to certain restrictions and discharged (freed) from your debts after a period of time.

is that not what we do? we can not pay our debts, so we asset strip to pay our creditors? wasnt that the reason we sold Ben Turner? Dann and Fox? etc we have not been made bankcrupt i grant you but we are bankcrupt in the real meaning of the word

 

[torchomatic]

We're not bankrupt and I don't expect us to be. We will never be wound up unless SISU maybe went down the toilet, but I can't see happening. Administration? Yes. Liquidation? No.

hi torch, .. but can you give your thoughts on why you do not think Liquidation could take place? we are bankcrupt afterall

 

[kg82]

er................. £30 million pounds of debt are still not paid off...

We cant pay these outstanding debts because CCFC owe them, ccfc holdings ltd. NOT SISU when will poeple get that? sisu can walk away right now. It is our club that own the debt, sisu LOANED the debt to CCFC ... get it??? its all legal ..just

Sorry, what did you not get about my statement? Bankruptcy is being judged by law, as in a court order, that debts cannot be paid. If you get a copy of anything that says we've been judged by law to be bankrupt then I'll hold my hands up. Until then I think you should withdraw your statement and replace it with "operating at a loss with outstanding debts" which is factual. And that has actually been the same for near on 20 years!

 

[ICHAN]

I do agree that the big wigs are moving/distancing themselves away from the club and did say ken going in the dugout could be a blessing in disguise as far as getting sisu out.
Why I do not know and I think that not long before ken's stunt plans were afoot in the world of sisu.

People were finding out things about them, please excuse me if some of this is wrong.
Optium or whatever it's called was set up.
This caymen island thing.
The onyi thing with shares or whatever was discovered.
Brody jumps ship.
JC comes in now wants out polititian re positioning himself.
Ken gone but why pull his stunt.
Let's credit sisu with some nounce here they are not stupid there is a plan behind everything they do we may not like them but they are very very shrewed and clever business people and to underestimate them maybe a mistake they will have plans in place for every eventuality on how to get out of the sinking ship they have blown the hole in.

 

[crowsnest]

not kidding, we are going into one or the other.

Do not be fooled by the resignation of orange Ken, or the decision by Clarke to act as independant!! or anything else that is taking place in the revolving door of the ricoh circus. they are positioning themselves for when the club is liquidated in my opinion, they are avoiding being banned from being directors or ceos of business in the future.

the real problem for me is how the owners are able to put the clubs debts into another company and then treat it as a loan to the club?? this millstone is what will kill our club, no investor will take a club on with a 30 million pound debt, its just not realistic, therefore the owners can only be doing one thing and that is positioning themselves and their investors for a way out of the club without losing their money or their futures as directors and associates of businesses.

I think administration is without question and will be anounced in the next 7 to 10 days

I am sure we are about to get an anouncement in the next 4 weeks saying the club are being liquidated as administrators refuse to administrate the club, and do not be surprised if the club are put under investgiation for financial mis-dealings when the administrator looks into our cayman island business and accounts, the other businesses in the clubs interests and the way in which the club have staved off paying off the debts, which has been illegal.

going into administration is just the start i have a horrible feeling about ccfc i really do, i wonder if we will still be in existence by the start of next season.

Sorry, but complete rubbish.

 

[crowsnest]

er................. £30 million pounds of debt are still not paid off...

We cant pay these outstanding debts because CCFC owe them, ccfc holdings ltd. NOT SISU when will poeple get that? sisu can walk away right now. It is our club that own the debt, sisu LOANED the debt to CCFC ... get it??? its all legal ..just

It is ok to be in debt if you can afford the repayments - look at Man U.
We don't have to pay anything on our loans from sisu (based on last set of accounts) so we can afford it.

Dave Whelan has given £75m to Wigan in the form of a loan. He said he will walk away an write it off.

 

[Danceswithhorses]

Bankruptcy – what does it mean?

Bankruptcy is one way of dealing with debts you can’t pay. Your assets can be used to pay your creditors (people you owe money to). You are subject to certain restrictions and discharged (freed) from your debts after a period of time.

is that not what we do? we can not pay our debts, so we asset strip to pay our creditors? wasnt that the reason we sold Ben Turner? Dann and Fox? etc we have not been made bankcrupt i grant you but we are bankcrupt in the real meaning of the word

We are not bankrupt....insolvent maybe ?? (technically only tho because we owe the money to SISU funds, and they are unlikely to call in their own debt debt)

 

[Jack Griffin]

Can't see liquidation happening, it didn't even happen to Luton did it?

I'm still convinced SISU will hold on till such a point they can sell and cover their losses. Unfortunately it is going to be a continual game of hard ball with any prospective new owners, that is why we have to keep them in the headlines wih adverse publicity, because this will increase the pressure on them to sell up & take more of a hit.

 

[cloughie]

er................. £30 million pounds of debt are still not paid off...

We cant pay these outstanding debts because CCFC owe them, ccfc holdings ltd. NOT SISU when will poeple get that? sisu can walk away right now. It is our club that own the debt, sisu LOANED the debt to CCFC ... get it??? its all legal ..just

Correct we owe sisu 30million, so why would they call the debt in and lose the money we owe them?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Entitled to your opinion howzer but

Firstly KD got sacked for clear and gross misconduct - he didnt go of his own accord and certainly that has nothing to do with positioning for liquidation

Directors are responsible for their actions at the time the alleged offence took place - therefore anyone who left after an event but before an investigation would still be responsible, no matter how much repositioning was done

How does Clarke getting a seat on CCFCH board amount to repositioning to save his neck - if CCFC or SBS&L go bust so do CCFCH. No such thing as an independent director- he is either a exec or non exec director.

I have no doubt that there is a tax reason why nearly all the shares are held by a fund legally based in the Cayman Isles, and I also would think that fund has simply had the previous funds transferred to it. Doesnt mean any part of the SBS&L group is based in the cayman isles only that the share owners are. In fact it would be hard to prove to HMRC that the SBS&L group is based anywhere other than in the UK just look at the facts.

With all the losses the club has I doubt they need to worry about paying tax any time in the next 10 years any way

The share owners have made loans to SBS&L not SISU. SISU are managing agents nothing more who act on behalf of the share owners who are now Sconset.

Do you not think that SISU would lose more face with their clients (the investors in Sconset) by going into liquidation than by continueing? Afterall they would lose the football registration, the option to buy into ACL, any potential to resell and of course £30m.

Every accounting entry has a debit and a credit. So transfer the debts to another company in the group and that will leave a debt in the original company that administrators will seek to reclaim

There is no evidence that any other debts have not been paid or are not part of a scheme of payment - so just exactly how is any of that illegal (btw I would check on the libel laws in this country before making such statements about illegal transactions)

It goes bust they lose nearly all their money, they wont get the money back by taking that route

There is no cayman island business or accounts to look into

Presently because of the undertakings given by the SISU investors the club is not insolvent, and certainly not bankrupt. If they withdraw that support thats different but they have not.

Entitled to your opinion howzer but to be honest there is little to support it. That may change but on what we actually know sorry i think you are wrong

 

[Danceswithhorses]

Finally...some FACT based information, instead of the rabid scaremongering
Many thanks OSB :claping hands:

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

Thanks OSB for giving a true account of what's going on. Some people write their opinion in such a factual manner that people think it's truth. OSB writes facts and truth in a sensible manner to clear it up for us all.

THANKS PAL.

 

[Lets all sing together]

I read the opening thread statement and crapped in my pants - then I read Oldskyblues and sorted myself out,

 

[Covstu]

welcome back howzer, how are leicester doing anyway???

 

[Moff]

Howzer, quite simply scaremongering and a load of hot air.

If they go into admin the debts are severely reduced and SISU wont get there cash back, and we wont see liquidation as someone will be in for the club. We would only be liquidated if no one could finance the club as a going concern.

All in all you are wrong.

 

[ashbyjan]

Can we simplify this - the club owe SISU's investors £30 million if the club was to be liquidated or even put into admin not only would the investors lose that money it would also reflect very badly on SISU as the company who manage the investors money and recommended the investment in CCFC. The Cayman Islands thing is also something of a red herring, I am told it has more to do with the EU cracking down on hedge finds activity than anything to do with Cov, a lot of hedge funds are doing similar things to avoid regulatory interference from EU.
The over riding question for me and one that no one has yet answered is how SISU hope to get their investors their money back let alone turn a profit on it? At present we are in an economic state of limbo, the club is losing money monthly but these losses are being covered internally by player sales etc so SISU are not asking investors for more money but for how long can this limbo state exist and to what end? At some point the cycle (or downward spiral) has to be broken and they have to accept the losses as no investor is going to give them the full amount back, certainly not up front. Anyone explain SISU's plan or even take a stab at it. Please no garbage about the stadium and ACL because it has been made very clear that this avenue is closed so please explain.

 

[I'mARealWizard]

It's all so sad that 4 years ago we were all celebrating staving off administration - something we never thought that we'd ever recover from.


...yet here we all (most) are today looking to it as our only possible salvation.

 

[procdoc]

ah Howzer, the man of many guises on the old CET forum. He's not even a cov fan nad poses as different people under numerous usernames. Seeyagunnarson was a particular favourite

 

[ICHAN]

Thought I recognized the name from somewhere.

 

[skyblueinBaku]

Don't accuse him of having multiple personas, procdoc, or you know what will happen. He'll complain to the moderators that you are bullying him, and then threaten them with legal action when they ignore him.

 

[kg82]

Don't accuse him of having multiple personas, procdoc, or you know what will happen. He'll complain to the moderators that you are bullying him, and then threaten them with legal action when they ignore him.

Ahhh, NOW I remember!

 

[procdoc]

oh shit I forgot about that! My point by raising his past is that I can't take any of his posts seriously (still doesn't stop me responding, I know, my bad!) even if any of his points are valid. He says he's worked in business but I seem to remember him making up numerous occupations over at CET!