Wave of optimism (9 Viewers)

[torchomatic]

Well, you never know Rumpo. It's all according who the new manager is and what influence he has on the current players and what resources he has to bring in new players. I know it's shit, but I certainly don't think we've been relegated just yet.

 

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[Astute]

Work isn't an excuse for me, I have a mortgage to pay. So you've blamed me and Grendel for not protesting, what about the thousands of CCFC fans or the 300 odd thousand who live in the city. Or the Sky Blue Trust who actually went to go and see Wasps. I know you'll blame me for most things as that's what you do, but can you tell me what the excuse was for everyone else?

We are nearly all to blame. Many sit on here moaning that hardly anyone has done anything but have done hardly anything themselves.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Work isn't an excuse for me, I have a mortgage to pay. So you've blamed me and Grendel for not protesting, what about the thousands of CCFC fans or the 300 odd thousand who live in the city. Or the Sky Blue Trust who actually went to go and see Wasps. I know you'll blame me for most things as that's what you do, but can you tell me what the excuse was for everyone else?

I can't speak for other people but I know that you moan more then anyone else.
Therefore why have you done nothing?
BTW I also have a mortgage to pay and two kids at University that I pay for.
I can honestly say that I earn a fifth of what Grendel earns so money is imaterial.
I had an issue with the sale so Went out of my way to show my opposition to it.

Again what have you done.

 

[torchomatic]

I can't speak for other people but I know that you moan more then anyone else.
Therefore why have you done nothing?
BTW I also have a mortgage to pay and two kids at University that I pay for.
I can honestly say that I earn a fifth of what Grendel earns so money is imaterial.
I had an issue with the sale so Went out of my way to show my opposition to it.

Again what have you done.

I applaud you. What have I done? Just gone on the marches - apart from the latest one but you know why I didn't. I'm really sorry if that is't enough for you. You've still not answered the question though apart from always moaning - look at your own posts from time to time. You're quick to blame Grendel and I but say nothing about the thousands of other fans or the people in the city or the local press. It's just easier to blame someone on a forum, I guess. You say "I can't speak for people" yet it seems you can speak for me.

You don't have to make everything a willy waving contest, but that's your style I guess. I've done this much and you haven't. I did this and you didn't. I went here and you didn't. As I said, I applaud you.

 

[Terry Gibson's perm]

23 games left , about 49 points needed to stay up, so 10 wins should do it ! Can anyone here really see that team winning 10 out of 23 ? I cant see them winning another 5 at the moment.

No chance of 10 wins with this useless lot, might need more than ten if we get a points deduction.

But I have to say I don't care if we get relegated if it's not this year it will be next so may as well get it out of the way now

 

[oldskyblue58]

As far as I know/remember it was two members of the S B Trust board out of a board of 9 that said they went to wasps games not as representatives of the trust, .....thats not the SBT going to wasps matches at all. Are those two people even still board members?

Should the trust come out against the wasps sale now is a different issue and a side issue to the importance of challenging Sisu ownership right now. Perhaps they should have before but two years later will it make a significant difference other than to make a few feel better

There is an assumption that they knew what was going on, were complicit in it and I think that credits them with perceived importance to CCC or ACL that never existed

Right now all fans including the trust , need to focus on the Ccfc of now and its future. Deal with what is and what we are told could be.

Just my opinion

 

[Wheelfass]

Very well put.

Listening to Tim last night, you can see he is very good at playing a straight bat to some excellent points put by very emotional fans. Irritatingly, he did a good job of putting down each question/statement/insult one by one. Everything was boxed off - the one response format actually facilitated that.

Where he struggles though is with a collective. One voice. This is why we need a more structured, robust and single line of questioning (no offence Clive).

The fans broke the law by getting onto the pitch, in fact. He knew that. Morally though, the fans had good reason and have been supported by the press and football community since. We need to focus on that - why we did it in the first place.

What's gone wrong? Why? What's the common denominator? What is his legacy? Where does the anger come from? Now that we are break even what is the plan? How will SISU re-engage the fans?

He can't answer these questions. Which is exactly why we need a single advocate. We'll find that in the press, in the FA, in the football community, by sticking together.

Welcome aboard Frank.

 

[Astute]

I applaud you. What have I done? Just gone on the marches - apart from the latest one but you know why I didn't. I'm really sorry if that is't enough for you. You've still not answered the question though apart from always moaning - look at your own posts from time to time. You're quick to blame Grendel and I but say nothing about the thousands of other fans or the people in the city or the local press. It's just easier to blame someone on a forum, I guess. You say "I can't speak for people" yet it seems you can speak for me.

You don't have to make everything a willy waving contest, but that's your style I guess. I've done this much and you haven't. I did this and you didn't. I went here and you didn't. As I said, I applaud you.

He moans. You moan. So do I. So does just about everyone who comes on here. So people moaning is something most of us can't moan about.

And to show how stupid things get on here you have LAST and BHSB IIRC who went to the demonstration outside CCC's offices. Hardly anyone turned up for various reasons given. But some on here have a go at them for defending CCC and blaming SISU for everything :banghead:

 

[torchomatic]

He moans. You moan. So do I. So does just about everyone who comes on here. So people moaning is something most of us can't moan about.

And to show how stupid things get on here you have LAST and BHSB IIRC who went to the demonstration outside CCC's offices. Hardly anyone turned up for various reasons given. But some on here have a go at them for defending CCC and blaming SISU for everything :banghead:

Yes we do all moan. Like you said hardly anyone turned up but it's fine for everyone else, not for me and Grendel though, but that's the kind of poster he is. If I remember though the main reason for the protest was just to catch out people not going. The "we went but what did you do?" attitude. Every post drips with it. He can get on with it, matters not to me.

I'll have a go back if I feel I need to I'll simply ignore the rest.

 

[Nick]

As far as I know/remember it was two members of the S B Trust board out of a board of 9 that said they went to wasps games not as representatives of the trust, .....thats not the SBT going to wasps matches at all. Are those two people even still board members?

As reps of the trust, then interview in the media saying how great it was? Weird logic.

 

[torchomatic]

As far as I know/remember it was two members of the S B Trust board out of a board of 9 that said they went to wasps games not as representatives of the trust, .....thats not the SBT going to wasps matches at all. Are those two people even still board members?

Should the trust come out against the wasps sale now is a different issue and a side issue to the importance of challenging Sisu ownership right now. Perhaps they should have before but two years later will it make a significant difference other than to make a few feel better

There is an assumption that they knew what was going on, were complicit in it and I think that credits them with perceived importance to CCC or ACL that never existed

Right now all fans including the trust , need to focus on the Ccfc of now and its future. Deal with what is and what we are told could be.

Just my opinion

The Trust and the local press should have come out when it was happening but neither had the "appetite" for it, they were too focused on SISU, regardless of what others do to the club. I thought it was odd that whilst at Sixfields the Trust were imploring away fans to boycott Sixfields yet attended the first franchise match at the Ricoh. Jan even said why should he "give a fuck" about Wasps fans as it was nothing to do with him, yet as a media spokesman he was begging those visiting fans not to do the same in Northampton. To be honest it doesn't matter if it was 1,2 or the whole 9 they shouldn't have done it or shouldn't have been on the board in the first place. As Nick has pointed out the odd thing was telling the press how fantastic the experience was. I'd had it with the Trust from that day.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Yes we do all moan. Like you said hardly anyone turned up but it's fine for everyone else, not for me and Grendel though, but that's the kind of poster he is. If I remember though the main reason for the protest was just to catch out people not going. The "we went but what did you do?" attitude. Every post drips with it. He can get on with it, matters not to me.

I'll have a go back if I feel I need to I'll simply ignore the rest.

Like you said hardly anyone turned up and yes I do have a go at you and G because you bring it up all the time about people not having a go at CCC wasps etc. Yet you couldn't be bothered yourself so why should they.
I am not bothered whether you turned up or not but stop having a go at others for doing exactly what you did fuck all.

 

[chiefdave]

As reps of the trust, then interview in the media saying how great it was? Weird logic.

And not being exactly pleasant to anyone who had a different point of view.

 

[chiefdave]

Haha! So when CCC lie it's a "bluff". Just like the "bluff" when we came back from Sixfields and they were talking about ownership despite having done a deal with Wasps. Or the "bluff" from Ann when she said she only agreed to the sale as she was told it wouldn't damage CCFC. Bingo!

That's the thing isn't it. As long as SISU have been talking about ground ownership we've been told CCFC is nothing to ACL, a small % of income and they could do fine without us. So we left and they kept insisting that ACL was still fine. Then they sold ACL at a knockdown price still claiming it was performing well.

Then when the accounts were published Lucas went on CWR and said she had been given the wrong information. So what has happened to Reeves and West, the councils representatives with ACL for such a big mistake? How many decisions, including authorising the sale, were made on the basis of this incorrect information?

Or did they all actually know the truth and royally stitched the club up?

 

[the rumpo kid]

Well, you never know Rumpo. It's all according who the new manager is and what influence he has on the current players and what resources he has to bring in new players. I know it's shit, but I certainly don't think we've been relegated just yet.

I want to be hopefull but we have players in that squad that cant kick the ball with both feet, dos'nt matter who the next manager is , if we get one, if you cant kick the ball In a straight line and score goals we've had it.

 

[dongonzalos]

That's all very well the old "cuts" thing, but if you remember at the time they said the Ricoh was doing well and they didn't need CCFC. Turned out to be a lie (but hey, who cares, that was soon forgotten about).

The difference is I DON'T understand why they did it. Ultimately it was probably because SISU had pissed them off so much they wouldn't deal with them and so basically they shafted the club out of spite as they hated SISU. So, all that history, the fans, the ground, etc didn't matter to them, they wouldn't have sold to the club no matter what. And look despite that show of spite we are still stuck with SISU and their grip is even tighter, so it only benefited Wasps. Fuck everyone else, fuck 130 years of history, fuck the future of the club. As long as SISU don't have it who cares and the sad thing is many people climbed on board with them. The Trust even attended the first Wasps match!

I will never understand it, so don't say I do deep down, because I don't. Doing it out of spite is even worse in my book. There is zero excuse to throw away the club to SISU and say "we don't care, you sort it out, we have Wasps now".

If you think it was a deal out of pure malice you really are a tad bit crazy.
Yes the malice is there and they could not trust them anymore. Anything thing they tired SISU would move the goal posts. As the high court senior judge pointed out SISU by taking the club to Northampton had pulled off a blinder. They had the council where they wanted them and they were going to pick ACL up for absolute nothing if it was possible.
They were warned and told to bid ASAP as the leader of the council was going to go a different direction.
SISU did not believe them and did not bid.
In Wasps the council had the polar opposite to SISU.
People who wanted to come in get the deal done quick. Had a plan were not going to play games and wanted to work with the council afterwards as well.
So sit and wait for someone to destroy a business half owned by you and half owned by a charity.
Or
Sell to the other bloke who has the money and is ready to do the deal.

It wasn't out of pure spite it was absolutely the only thing to do for the council. It would have been considered negligent if they didn't.
Both the tax payer and the charity would have been right to lynch them if they decided to stick with SISU. Waiting for ACL to go bust. If they then were told about the Wasps proposal.

 

[Grendel]

If you think it was a deal out of pure malice you really are a tad bit crazy.
Yes the malice is there navies they could not dean with them. Anything thing they tired SISU would move the goal posts. As the high court senior judge pointed out SISU by taking the club to Northampton had pulled off a blinder. They had the council where they wanted them and they were going to pick ACL up for absolute nothing if it was possible.
They were warned and told to bid ASAP as the leader of the council was going to go a different direction.
SISU did not believe them and did not bid.
In Wasps the council had the polar opposite to SISU.
People who wanted to come in get the deal done quick. Had a plan were not going to play games and wanted to work with the council afterwards as well.
So sit and wait fir someone to destroy a business half owned by you and half owned by a charity.
Or
Sell to the other bloke who has the money is ready to do the deal.

It wasn't out of pure spite it was absolutely the only thing to do fir the council. It would have been considered negligent if they didn't.
Both the tax payer and the charity would have been right to lynch them if they decided to stick with SISU. Waiting fir ACL to go bust. If they then were told about the Wasps proposal.

Why didn't they extend the lease to improve value before the point of sale? A question you never seem to answer.

 

[dongonzalos]

Why didn't they extend the lease to improve value before the point of sale? A question you never seem to answer.

Was it sold too cheaply then?

 

[Astute]

Why didn't they extend the lease to improve value before the point of sale? A question you never seem to answer.

The bit I don't understand is that SISU refused to have negotiations over the Ricoh but now you and others constantly cry about the same offer not being made to CCFC. The offer had to be made to SISU as we were as usual skint and can't raise funds unless through SISU. And they refused to talk.

 

[chiefdave]

Was it sold to cheaply then?

Whatever you think of the sale price of ACL or the subsequent valuation of the lease by Wasps you can't really doubt that a 250 year lease is worth more than a 50 year one. Makes the question of why it wasn't extended prior to the sale a valid one. Even more so when you consider the extension was agreed at the same meeting as the sale.

 

[chiefdave]

The bit I don't understand is that SISU refused to have negotiations over the Ricoh but now you and others constantly cry about the same offer not being made to CCFC. The offer had to be made to SISU as we were as usual skint and can't raise funds unless through SISU. And they refused to talk.

For me it comes down to a couple of simple points:

1) CCC should not even have considered selling to a team from outside the city. That would apply in any circumstances but after they had taken every opportunity available to condemn CCFC for playing temporarily in Northampton you would expect it to be an even more obvious point.

2) The council should have been upfront about the sale. If, when everything they said indicated otherwise, they needed to sell ACL then it should have been done in a way that ensured the maximum return for the taxpayer. The terms of the sale should have first been agreed, i.e.: 50 year or 250 year lease, and then an external agency brought in to properly market ACL. That doesn't mean necessarily they shouldn't have sold to someone other than the football club but it means everyone, including the taxpayers, know what is going on. A fair and transparent process.

You could make a third point that a stadium built for CCFC should be retained for CCFC and even if CCC had issues with SISU they should have retained ownership until new owners came in. You could even mothball the stadium if necessary.

 

[Grendel]

Was it sold too cheaply then?

Answer my question first then I will answer yours.

Fair?

 

[fernandopartridge]

This will sound strange to many I am sure.
However personally at the moment I feel quite optimistic.

SISU have been forced to admit their only plan (short term). Get the club costing nothing I.e breakeven. Then sit and hope someone comes in with a bid.

Since the firesale sale of Juke just when we were facing relegation I knew SISU's interests were different from the club. You would never sell your top striker when facing relegation to replace him with two untested loanee's for less than 1mlion. If you understood football and understood the true cost of relegation.
Then observing the way SISU did business they won with the rent strike but still tried to go one step further.
They did well to get the club to Northampton again an amazing opportunity to get ACL for the bargain that Wasps did. They again misjudged it and went for more.
Selling Juke, back tracking on the hand shake on the rent deal, Not bidding for ACL when Anne said put your best bid in. I realise these people do not understand when they have a good opportunity and ahways try to push one step further.

I fell into their trap again when they supported Mowbray. When Venus was put on the board aswell I thought finally this is it. They understand they need a football man picking the team. They need a football man influencing the board.

I was wrong "breakeven" is the holy grail more important than promotion, more important than season ticket sales, more important than a cup run. More important than selling merchandise.

The reason I am optimistic is during their reign of mismanagement of our club. They managed to deflect blame, the Council, Wasps, CET, Simon Gilbert, The Higgs charity.

Effectively anybody who stands up against them and says enough this is not right gets attacked and blamed.

This has divided the fans some moving away from the main catalyst of our problems. Yes there are always other issues but there is usually a primary cause. Thanks to the likes of Les Reid they were managing to deflect and aportion blame quite impressively.

Last night for the first time the fans in unison stood up against them. True to form Tim Fisher today was attacking the fans apparently we have .....

Derailed the Butts deal (without him speaking to John Sharpe) it is somehow Fact.

Made ball boys cry (poor buggers have been crying for a while over the destruction of the club where they used to walk out with internationals)

Put off potential investors ( now fans showing passion puts off an investor but SISU suing people who do business with them and repeatedly losing and stating the club isn't for sale and presiding over the club battling to avoid its lowest ever league position doesn't !!!)

Made the players shoulders drop
( what made their shoulders drop in the other 10 defeats, last night was one of their better performances)

Scared off potential new managers (JFH met with the owners and said forget it after that chat well before any protest, so SISU put off managers, not fans showing passion. Any manager with a brain will understand)

Last night was the first time 99% forgot about the other shit SISU deflects you too. Even on here afterwards 99% were proud of the protest.

This is a turning point now Tim Fisher is blaming you the fan for his and SISU's bad decision making.

It is time to stay united keep this momentum up and soon they willl be gone.

I genuinely feel more optimistic as a result of last night than anytime since pre the Juke sale!!!

If they dont give us anything to be proud of on the pitch we can be damn proud of ourselves instead.

A couple(two) of idiots on here have sniped at our own fans for not standing up to Wasps or the council. Suggesting other fans would have been up in arms rioting at our treatment.
I noted they were very quite last night when our fans did stand up and were counted. Thought they would be on here with tears in their eyes that our fans were sticking up for the club.
Unfortunately not a squeak from either of them.The silence speaks volumes

Zzzzzzz

 

[Grendel]

The bit I don't understand is that SISU refused to have negotiations over the Ricoh but now you and others constantly cry about the same offer not being made to CCFC. The offer had to be made to SISU as we were as usual skint and can't raise funds unless through SISU. And they refused to talk.

What has my point got to do with anything you've just said?

 

[dongonzalos]

Answer my question first then I will answer yours.

Fair?

I can't answer that question because I don't know the answer only Anne Lucas and her staff know that one.
I can guess that maybe a potential buyer would not want to pay more. Than around 5-7 million and taking responsibility for the loan.
Maybe that happening later was a good way to ensure the deal.
Would have loved it if SISU made that same bid when they were asked to put in their best offer. They were holding out for a much lower price unfortunately and stated they would never have done the deal Wasps did.

 

[dongonzalos]

Zzzzzzz

Schlort

 

[dongonzalos]

Whatever you think of the sale price of ACL or the subsequent valuation of the lease by Wasps you can't really doubt that a 250 year lease is worth more than a 50 year one. Makes the question of why it wasn't extended prior to the sale a valid one. Even more so when you consider the extension was agreed at the same meeting as the sale.

Makes me question why SISU didn't get some actual hard fast bids in and maybe things would have gone the sane way.
Unfortunately they were holding out for a bust ACL instead.

 

[dongonzalos]

For me it comes down to a couple of simple points:

1) CCC should not even have considered selling to a team from outside the city. That would apply in any circumstances but after they had taken every opportunity available to condemn CCFC for playing temporarily in Northampton you would expect it to be an even more obvious point.

2) The council should have been upfront about the sale. If, when everything they said indicated otherwise, they needed to sell ACL then it should have been done in a way that ensured the maximum return for the taxpayer. The terms of the sale should have first been agreed, i.e.: 50 year or 250 year lease, and then an external agency brought in to properly market ACL. That doesn't mean necessarily they shouldn't have sold to someone other than the football club but it means everyone, including the taxpayers, know what is going on. A fair and transparent process.

You could make a third point that a stadium built for CCFC should be retained for CCFC and even if CCC had issues with SISU they should have retained ownership until new owners came in. You could even mothball the stadium if necessary.

Point 2 what do you think would drive a council to do a deal so secretively. Once they have decided they are going the Wasps way?

 

[Grendel]

I can't answer that question because I don't know the answer only Anne Lucas and her staff know that one.
I can guess that maybe a potential buyer would not want to pay more. Than around 5-7 million and taking responsibility for the loan.
Maybe that happening later was a good way to ensure the deal.
Would have loved it if SISU made that same bid when they were asked to put in their best offer. They were holding out for a much lower price unfortunately and stated they would never have done the deal Wasps did.

Sorry? Taking responsibility for the loan? A loan the council took responsibility of without consulting tax payers? Irrelevant that isn't it?

 

[dongonzalos]

Sorry? Taking responsibility for the loan? A loan the council took responsibility of without consulting tax payers? Irrelevant that isn't it?

14 million pounds of irrelevance

 

[Gosford Green]

SISU were trying to financially distress ACL until it went bust then hoped to get the stadium cheap.

CCC outmanoeuvred them and sold it to Wasps. Quite easy to work out.

 

[lifeskyblue]

What really baffles me is how a hard headed hedge fund with all the cards in their hand made one double bluff too many and ended up with an asset that is almost worthless. They then compounded that with a series of judicial reviews (and appeals) when the majority of sane people recognised they had very little chance of winning.
Now they don't own the club...some subsidiary of a subsidiary appears to and they don't have anything to do with the running of the business. They leave that to the discredited and deceitful mr 'blame it on the fans' Fisher.

I'm not saying other parties are blameless in this but sisu's incompetence is truly staggering.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Grendel]

14 million pounds of irrelevance

It's irrelevant as the council at the time said they took on the loan as commercially it meant they would make a profit during its term.

There was no requirement to take the loan.

Why did they? Do you think the reason they gave for doing so was an honest reason?

 

[martcov]

Sorry? Taking responsibility for the loan? A loan the council took responsibility of without consulting tax payers? Irrelevant that isn't it?

Loan has been repaid. The "edifice" as you called it, is being used by two professional sports teams. The council is well out of it, as are the taxpayers. There are no complaints from the taxpayers ( at least no legal challenges or political challenges ) which would imly that most of Coventry can live with the deal. Even most fans accept the CCC Realpolitik as CCFC have the most hated owners in their history.

If the council had dared to sell to Wasps in 1988 there would have been riots, but the football club is a tarnished, if not toxic, brand. It would be better for CCFC if they still had a chance of buying into the Ricoh, but that ship has sailed.

Sad, but pointless crying over spilt milk. SISU are still thinking about Europe ( courts, not football ), so maybe more will come out, but I really doubt the point of it all.

I am more concerned about relegation happening in 2017 than past council policy or SISU property cock ups.

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

Yes we do all moan. Like you said hardly anyone turned up but it's fine for everyone else, not for me and Grendel though, but that's the kind of poster he is. If I remember though the main reason for the protest was just to catch out people not going. The "we went but what did you do?" attitude. Every post drips with it. He can get on with it, matters not to me.

I'll have a go back if I feel I need to I'll simply ignore the rest.

So I took time off work not to protest but to see who didn't go to protest?