Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
No because the football club agree to the charges and to pay these invoices, the amount SISU charge is not really silly money in football terms but it is still a sizeable chunk of cash flow for CCFC.
Fisher Lost The Plot (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter Skybluenutterman
- Start date
Nick
Administrator
So what's the stop companies just making up silly invoices to transfer money between them? You could launder money all day long that way.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
The King of "Answer a question with a question" strikes again!
Nick
Administrator
Not really, people keep swapping and changing on how it is happening.
Gosford Green is actually explaining things so maybe let him
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Is that a flicker of light I see?
Nick
Administrator
No, it's an actual discussion.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
I'm sure there are a few legit items in there like the club matching the £500,000 FA academy grant for instance but I think that'll be where stuff is most easily hidden.
There is no detail so it is opaque, rather like the true ownership of the club hidden behind a Caymen Islands company.
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Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
No because 2 companies are agreeing on a commercial transaction. take this as another way of looking at it, Nick SBT Ltd retail use Nick SBT Distribution Ltd to deliver goods to Nick SBT retail stores, there is a good chance this is done at a cost that might be able to be done cheaper by another distribution company but the directors of Nick SBT retail decide it this way, it does not make it fraud. The same way as CCFC uses a SISU company for admin fees it is often done in business.
If Coventry City FC is placed in administration again the owners might this time not get away with a tame insolvency practitioner the second time, I would like to think an investigation would take place by the insolvency service, they might uncover fraud.
Either way, some of our ticket and merchandise money ends up at SISU.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Why would that be Nick... Coz you can't?Not really, people keep swapping and changing on how it is happening.
Gosford Green is actually explaining things so maybe let him
Nick
Administrator
That is wide open to abuse though isn't it, you can use that to launder and transfer money between businesses?
Surely an actual service has to take place and be shown to be taking place? Otherwise it's just taking money out.
I can understand it for interest etc.
How would it be proven that it was happening? Surely the Elliots and Hoffmans would know exactly what is going through? (or was then).
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Let me ask you a question for once Nick. Why, do you think, has SISU got so many "Arms" to their business?
Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
It has been know to launder money that way.
But if you have an invoice that itemises for example the cost to CCFC for the services of Messers Anderson and Venus and the invoice has been signed off by the football club board it is a legitimate business transaction.
Anderson and Venus are real people who probably invoice SISU for the work or are directors of the SISU company and claim a dividend and a wage.
It is business Nick.
Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
Their accountancy cost are probably only slightly less than their legal bills.
Nick
Administrator
I can understand the whole dividend thing and don't doubt Anderson and Venus got / get paid as directors as CCFC. I can also understand if Fisher did as chairman (not that Id agree with it).
What actual services could SISU provide CCFC legitimately?
I'd say that is what needs to be targetted and dug into... That would damage SISU more with places like the Football League if they were doing that compared to not buying players etc.
What actual services could SISU provide CCFC legitimately?
I'd say that is what needs to be targetted and dug into... That would damage SISU more with places like the Football League if they were doing that compared to not buying players etc.
Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
I would say similar happens at most clubs. Billy Bigtime, club legend now a matchday host and part time coach charges Festa City FC £140,000 pa for services as described, other directors of Billy Bigtime promotions Ltd are more than likely involved with Festa City FC.
Nick
Administrator
Thanks for actually explaining in simple terms
I'll see if I can find anybody who can do a bit more digging!
My God - Management fee's again!
This must be one of the most die hard myths that has ever roamed the internet.
The clubs accounts are every year analyzed deeper than British Telecoms and explained in minute details - yet people still don't understand how it works.
Not one penny has gone from the clubs accounts to SISU. But around £40m has gone the opposite way into the clubs accounts.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Because they are always at war?
Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
As what ? A loan or equity exchanged for debt.
So SISU do not charge a management fee ? I was under the impression they did.
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
OK.. Tentacles.... and don't even think about being dirty
chickentikkamasala
Well-Known Member
Do you have evidence?
Only a little banter, as someone previously said, a forum like this takes a lot of time and effort. I would say we all appreciate it Nick :kiss:
Otis
Well-Known Member
Do I ever think of anything but?OK.. Tentacles.... and don't even think about being dirty
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
So was I, or did......
Income
CCFC Ltd shows a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £10,267,7089 (2010, £9,291,108) an increase of just under £1 Million on the previous year, with Sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £6,341,808 (2010, £4,930,590) and match day receipts of £3,925,900 (2010, £4,360,518). CCFC Holdings Ltd has a total income in the year to 31 May 2011 of £4,478,157 (2010, £4,432,954), which is a small increase on the previous year, with sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions contributing £1,791,315 (2010, £1,663,196) and charging management fees of £2,686,842 (2010, £2,769,758). Who these management fees are paid to is not disclosed. Both companies share an income header ‘Sponsorship, advertising, club shop & promotions’. Why the income is split between two linked companies is not disclosed. TV rights are most likely to included in the higher figures reported by CCFC Ltd. SBSL Ltd publish consolidated accounts, which includes all the data from subsidiaries in the group whilst excluding inter-company activity. SBSL Ltd owns CCFC Holdings Ltd, who in turn own CCFC Ltd. SBSL Ltd has a group annual income of £16,021,046, which is an additional £1.2 million than that shown in the accounts of the two subsidiaries combined but includes £3,962,023 (2010, £3,179,589) for sports analysis work conducted by the subsidiary Prozone Sports Ltd. There is no mention of the management fees of £2.6 million (from CCFC Holdings Ltd),
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Isn't it like the Arvo charge, that can be "Called in"
Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
So admin fees from one CCFC related company to another, would these companies have anything very slightly to do with SISU?
Most money they put in as loans. This has three purposes - 1) The money is still an asset in their accounts (or in their investor portfolio) until written off - 2) They can charge interests (yet they accrue the interest to the loans, they do not pull them out) - and 3) the debts acts as a safeguard against hostile takeovers (as we saw when the club was put into administration).
Management fee was used when SBS&L, CCFC ltd and CCFC Holding shared the same bank account. It was a financial tool to bring all the clubs costs into SBS&L. It goes back to before SISU came in.
Give it up. No matter how hard you want sisu to be 'taking' money from the club, there's absolutely no evidence they have ever done that. And trust me, some very smart people have looked very, very hard for a smoking gun - without luck so far. It's a myth, so please drop it and concentrate on the wrongs they actually do and have done. There's lot to pick from!
Calista
Well-Known Member
Yes, what financial expertise he demonstrated there
But the fact that he said this at all suggests they had thought about the risks, and dismissed them. They knowingly gambled with the future of CCFC and lost.
Gosford Green
Well-Known Member
If they do not list who the management fees are going too then the trail goes cold pretty soon.
Ok, can I ask why you believe you're smarter than the auditors, both them who sign off the accounts and those on here who scrutinize the accounts in minute details?
There's nothing in the cash-flow to suggest money goes to Sisu.
You will need to produce hard evidence to show otherwise, else you are simply trying to damage their reputation in the one place where they are actually safe. Why not spend your time and efford where they are guilty?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I think (and I'm happy to be corrected) that OSB has said that there's nothing in the short form accounts on the companies house web site to suggest that they're taking anything out whilst acknowledging that the full unedited accounts could tell a different story. Clearly the management fees in the short form are not SISU taking money out, as you say that has been explained to death. But lets not assume that something isn't going out elsewhere in a different manor that doesn't need to be shown in the short form accounts on companies house, they are not the full picture so therefore not the be all and end all.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
So what are the "Administrative Expenses" of £2.9M in the last accounts for? It is rather a lot of money so you should be able to identify its purpose shouldn't you, can you tell us what you think it pays for.
ccfc92
Well-Known Member
I thought it was generally there's no evidence of any misdeeds, but there's still a possibility in the more detailed accounts there could be dodgy transactions.
Obviously without evidence, it's more speculation. However it's hardly a crazy conspiracy, as it's not highly unlikely, is it?