Fisher Lost The Plot (28 Viewers)

[Gosford Green]

Ok, can I ask why you believe you're smarter than the auditors, both them who sign off the accounts and those on here who scrutinize the accounts in minute details?
There's nothing in the cash-flow to suggest money goes to Sisu.

You will need to produce hard evidence to show otherwise, else you are simply trying to damage their reputation in the one place where they are actually safe. Why not spend your time and efford where they are guilty?

As explained to Nick there is nothing illegal or wrong if a company raises an invoice to another for admin or management fees. Their own accountants will produce the accounts each year, they are not independent and yearly accounts open to view via the normal channels is very far from an audit.

If they list £2.7 million in management fees and do not state to whom that will always leave it open to doubt the claim they take no money out what so ever.

 

---

[Godiva]

So what are the "Administrative Expenses" of £2.9M in the last accounts for? It is rather a lot of money so you should be able to identify its purpose shouldn't you, can you tell us what you think it pays for.

Look here:

First off keep in mind the following
- This is a part of the overall picture, the full picture is the SBS&L accounts
- There will be a number of transactions (some very large) that are internal to the group and do not form part of the big picture. In one company a liability in the other an asset put the two together and they cancel out

The strategic report (directors report)
- This is Directors (TF/SW) view of things with selected facts. It is not the full picture necessarily and is their view. nothing wrong with that
- It details the 60.9m in brief which as i said elsewhere is taking the CCFC H debt in to Otium then changing it in to low ranking preference shares that have no vote. That 60.9m is made up of the £33m debts that were discounted when SISU came in plus the 28m that is taken as SISU funds put in since then. In my opinion this does not mean they have put in 28m cash and they certainly have not put in 61m
- How many times can these sums invested be quite legally accounted for, transferred, converted or written off? Administrator traded CCFC Ltd apparently - i thought it was a non trading company?
- Goodwill on taking CCFC Ltd and CCFC H assets and liabilities in to Otium is written off. No real surprise there was no net worth as we know
-paid ACL 471k
- apparently Otium guaranteed the 60.9m to SBS&L and ARVO - i dont think that was a Football League requirement but might be wrong but not the way i read it. So basically guaranteed from the groups left hand to its right hand - sounds good and quite legal but just a way of creating the shares issued in reality.
- no outside finance and no future revenues have been charged. Minimal working capital funding required
- new stadium will be in an associated company - either SBS&L or a new one then
- need for new stadium reiterated
- will rely on academy - better sort out the Alan Higgs Centre then?
- Risks team performance, need for further investment, tenancy at the Ricoh
- Still have option to go back to Sixfields
- no contractual guarantee of future funding only an intention
- signed by TF last Friday 27th

The Figures

- Since balance sheet date 1.02m more shares issued to Arvo - Does that cover outstanding interest? and does it also count towards SMCP. (Indeed does the conversion of 60.9m - not sure that bit does)
- Audit report has emphasis of matter paragraph detailing concerns about going concern. Like last year
- First year of trading for Otium and started to trade August 2013 - anything before that would be included in the full group accounts.
Turnover 3.4m
Direct costs 1.03m
staff costs 4.48m
administration costs (including 2.2m write of goodwill) 5.16m
Profit on player sales 373k
Interest charges 2.098m
Exceptional charge 60.9m

Operating loss 7.7m
trading Loss 9.37m
total loss 70m

Balance sheet shows liabilities of 11.9m and total net liabilities 11.36m

-there have been 64m shares issued so far in Otium but only 1000 are voting and they are the ones that denote ownership ie 90.1% to SBS&L 9.9% to ARVO (901:99)

-According to the notes the budgets prepared include the assumption/intention of player sales
- there are land leases total paid 296k in year - SIxfields and Higgs Centre plus other small hires
- there is 2.098m interest payable for the year - now it might all not have been paid out yet but it is contractually due - note in account says that 1.39m remains accrued at the year end so something must have been paid out
Wages were 4.6m on 102 players 28 admin staff and 287 part time stewards. These figures are for total number employed in year it doesnt mean they were all still employed at year end
- Directors were paid £120k - who to it doesnt say but you might assume most to SW ?
- There was 158k paid out on new players - not sure who on? Barton?
- the player profit on sales original cost was 162k and profit was 373k working it back proceeds were 450K
- Goodwill was on the "acquisition" of CCFC Ltd and CCFCH ltd assets and chosen liabilities - no surprise this paper figure was written off as there was no real value to it. But it does inflate the losses
- Ryton is included on the otium accounts at a book value of 352K
- In the year 109k of equipment was purchased
- Total loans to Otium from ARVO/SBS&L total 8.2m with 1.39m still otstanding = 9.6m up from 5.2m in 2013
- £2m of the ARVO loans are convertible loan notes to become shares in certain circumstances
- all assets are charged to ARVO
- ARVO in year has put in 3.29m loans or put in/had converted in to shares 3.3m
- Ultimate parent company is SBS&L but wasnt the ultimate owner disclosed as Sconset previously?
- there is a potential future liability to pay out on players 50k - it might not happen
- there is a potential income re player sales in the future of 420k - it might not happen
- there were land lease commitments in 2015 of 360k and 2016 onwards of £160k - that will be a mix of sixfields, ricoh and Alan Higgs Centre
- there have been transfers since the balance sheet date that gave the club 2.1m net proceeds - I assume this is Wilson but what about Christy?

Lot of tidying up going on and some making it look better

What they have not done is write off any of the "investment" they have actually put in to the group. But the way a group structure works and some clever but entirely legal shifting of amounts does make it look that way if you take otium in isolation - which of course you should not

 

[Godiva]

As explained to Nick there is nothing illegal or wrong if a company raises an invoice to another for admin or management fees. Their own accountants will produce the accounts each year, they are not independent and yearly accounts open to view via the normal channels is very far from an audit.

If they list £2.7 million in management fees and do not state to whom that will always leave it open to doubt the claim they take no money out what so ever.

What is it - Management fee's or Administration cost?
I suspect you believe they are the same?

 

[Gosford Green]

What is it - Management fee's or Administration cost?
I suspect you believe they are the same?

Yes however the club decide to list it at the time. If you have proof who this service is provided by then please feel free as I have missed it myself.
Some of it might be agents, though I doubt the fee would be high at this level.

I am not arsed myself and I agree, they have done a lot worse than send the odd million to another company to carve up as a pay day. My point is that there is a high probability that some of the ticket or transfer money ends up with the parent company.

Nick asked how his ticket money might end up at SISU, I offered an explanation of a possible scenario, do you agree it is not up their with the US not landing on the moon as a conspiracy theory?

 

[Astute]

Not one penny has gone from the clubs accounts to SISU. But around £40m has gone the opposite way into the clubs accounts.

40m?

When was that?

 

[Godiva]

40m?

When was that?

I rounded up to make a point.
It's 'only' £36m.

 

[Astute]

I rounded up to make a point.
It's 'only' £36m.

36m?

When?

 

[ccfc92]

Yes however the club decide to list it at the time. If you have proof who this service is provided by then please feel free as I have missed it myself.
Some of it might be agents, though I doubt the fee would be high at this level.

I am not arsed myself and I agree, they have done a lot worse than send the odd million to another company to carve up as a pay day. My point is that there is a high probability that some of the ticket or transfer money ends up with the parent company.

Nick asked how his ticket money might end up at SISU, I offered an explanation of a possible scenario, do you agree it is not up their with the US not landing on the moon as a conspiracy theory?

Some people probably do rate the two the same, which is worrying.

 

[Captain Dart]

Look here:

I was looking at the SBS&L May 2015 accounts,
Your reference was about Otium accounts, that is no guide.
What are these "Administrative expenses" for?
Its not for staff, that is a different item, it must be for some services, what services cost the club £2.9M?

 

[Godiva]

36m?

When?

£28m from the 5 original funds and £8m from Arvo.

 

[Astute]

£28m from the 5 original funds and £8m from Arvo.

How much to what funds?

Think you are still about 33% too high.

 

[Godiva]

I was looking at the SBS&L May 2015 accounts,
Your reference was about Otium accounts, that is no guide.
What are these "Administrative expenses" for?
View attachment 6167

Otium is the club. SBS&L is a parent company. The account you show is a consolidated report. Most (if not all) of the operational income and costs are from Otium, but some of the assets/liabilities are from the days of CCFC ltd and holding.
You clearly have access to the published accounts - read the notes written by the auditors to find what you are looking for.

 

[Captain Dart]

Otium is the club. SBS&L is a parent company. The account you show is a consolidated report. Most (if not all) of the operational income and costs are from Otium, but some of the assets/liabilities are from the days of CCFC ltd and holding.
You clearly have access to the published accounts - read the notes written by the auditors to find what you are looking for.

There are no notes accompanying "Administrative expenses". What are they for, what do you think they are for?

 

[Godiva]

How much to what funds?

Think you are still about 33% too high.

Wish someone could explain to me how fisher gets this 70m plus figure. In terms of hard cash it is nothing like that ....... The details from 2008 to 2015 are detailed the cash flow reconciliation in the accounts and the movement year to year on the investor/arvo loans.

Currently the amount outstanding to investors is 28m and ARVO 8m

 

[Gosford Green]

Otium is the club. SBS&L is a parent company. The account you show is a consolidated report. Most (if not all) of the operational income and costs are from Otium, but some of the assets/liabilities are from the days of CCFC ltd and holding.
You clearly have access to the published accounts - read the notes written by the auditors to find what you are looking for.

That is a profit and loss or maybe abbreviated set of accounts, usually done by the companies own accountants, not sure where the auditors are relevant in your point.

The notes are probably a directors report.

 

[Godiva]

There are no notes accompanying "Administrative expenses". What are they for, what do you think they are for?

I don't have the accounts in front of me, but it could be items like
- administration cost (everything not directly football related)
- interests
- amortization/depreciation
to name a few possibilities.

One thing it's not is management fee to Sisu.

Try searching posts by OSB, he has probably explained them a few times.

 

[chiefdave]

If you look at the accounts doesn't administrative expenses cover all outgoings other than costs directly related to turnover and wages?

Given that millions can legitimately be taken out of the club to repay debt why would there be any need to try and hide money being taken out?

 

[Captain Dart]

I don't have the accounts in front of me, but it could be items like
- administration cost (everything not directly football related)
- interests
- amortization/depreciation
to name a few possibilities.

One thing it's not is management fee to Sisu.

Try searching posts by OSB, he has probably explained them a few times.

It is not depreciation or interest, they are separate items.
Interest is £1.37M, note 6,
Depreciation is £60K, there is virtually nowt to depreciate.
Note 3 covers some costs including depreciation, equipment, land & buildings, audit services, loss on disposals, but the lot adds up to about £775K

So what is this £2.9M for?

 

[ccfcway]

what does any of this have to do with fisher losing the plot ?

 

[skybluetony176]

Given that millions can legitimately be taken out of the club to repay debt why would there be any need to try and hide money being taken out?

You may have answered your own question there Dave. Maybe they don't want the debt paying of. Godiva has already given a good explanation why that might be. So if you don't want the debt paying of but you want to take money out you have to do it in a different way.

 

[Gosford Green]

One thing it's not is management fee to Sisu.


Due to them not disclosing where and who this was paid to there is no way of disproving or proving this. Even OSB and his accounting knowledge would not have access to the actual invoices relevant.

However despite reading many of his highly informative posts on this, maybe I have missed something on the admin fees.

 

[Wheelfass]

what does any of this have to do with fisher losing the plot ?

It's just the long way around explanation. All will be revealed very soon I'm sure.........maybe.
But I think he has lost the plot for sure...........maybe, if that helps.

 

[dongonzalos]

It's the same thing just spun differently. They are both actively trying to hurt the club, rather than just somebody who has just got fed up and not gone again.

Nope there are three things
You just spin it to ignore one of them because it goes against your grain.

1) Don't go to spite SISU
2) Don't go because you have had enough irrespective of how it affects anything else.
3) Don't go because you believe that is the only way that the owners will move on and the quickest way to help the club long term.

You may not like the last option however that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is spin.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

We won't have made a profit come the accounts, it was Fisher spin

This is the bit I still can't reconcile. You - and others - now acknowledge you can't believe a word Fisher states, yet still judge other parties so harshly for not being able to negotiate a deal with him. And every deal his duplicity and slight-of-hand blows, has cost the club ever more dear

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

what does any of this have to do with fisher losing the plot ?

Well it seems he's lost a lot of fooking money somewhere

 

[skybluetony176]

This is the bit I still can't reconcile. You - and others - now acknowledge you can't believe a word Fisher states, yet still judge other parties so harshly for not being able to negotiate a deal with him. And every deal his duplicity and slight-of-hand blows, has cost the club ever more dear

He did seem to deal a straight bat with Cardoza to be fair. What ever happened to Cardoza?

 

[Otis]

He did seem to deal a straight bat with Cardoza to be fair. What ever happened to Cardoza?

Probably signed up to the Sisu board.

 

[Astute]

He did seem to deal a straight bat with Cardoza to be fair. What ever happened to Cardoza?

IIRC he was getting looked at for possible fraudulently using funds lent to his football club. Isn't it hard to believe that Fisher got into bed with him.

 

[Astute]

Just to say that I've called Joy Seppala's office today and was invited by "Gaynor" to leave her a message, which I did do by requesting that she sell Coventry City. Apparently there has been several other similar requests today.
The number is.......
020 7290 5450

Number is engaged :smuggrin:

 

[Captain Dart]

He did seem to deal a straight bat with Cardoza to be fair. What ever happened to Cardoza?

Still under police investigation I think. Northampton Town and the missing millions: A timeline of events - BBC News

 

[Wheelfass]

Number is engaged :smuggrin:

Understandable . Try again tomorrow Astute.

 

[Gosford Green]

David Cardoza arrested over £10.25m Northampton Town Football Club loan - BBC News

He would get on just fine with Fisher.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

Did Cardoza ever lay the new pitch that Coventry City FC. paid £150k for?

 

[stupot07]

I was looking at the SBS&L May 2015 accounts,
Your reference was about Otium accounts, that is no guide.
What are these "Administrative expenses" for?
Its not for staff, that is a different item, it must be for some services, what services cost the club £2.9M?
View attachment 6167

So what is this £2.9M for?

Looks like they have their outgoings listed in just 2 categories - staffing (wages) and administrative expenses, you have to therefore assume that admin expenses are anything not wage relegated so will include - rent, matchday costs, agents fees, transfer fee, utililities, consumables, shop stock (we ran our own then), some of academy costs, travel/hotel costs,etc, business rates, room hire, tax, insurance, medical bills, didn't we pay for sixfields pitch in those accounts?, etc.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Gosford Green]

Looks like they have their outgoings listed in just 2 categories - staffing (wages) and administrative expenses, you have to therefore assume that admin expenses are anything not wage relegated so will include - rent, matchday costs, agents fees, transfer fee, utililities, consumables, shop stock (we ran our own then), some of academy costs, travel/hotel costs,etc, business rates, room hire, tax, insurance, medical bills, didn't we pay for sixfields pitch in those accounts?, etc.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Copied from OSB (again)

First year of trading for Otium and started to trade August 2013 - anything before that would be included in the full group accounts.
Turnover 3.4m
Direct costs 1.03m
staff costs 4.48m
administration costs (including 2.2m write of goodwill) 5.16m*
Profit on player sales 373k
Interest charges 2.098m
Exceptional charge 60.9m

*You are still struggling in explaining that one.
The direct costs would be matchday expenses, this covers the year at sixfields, we did not pay much for anything so I would probably put a lot the day to day running in this column