Holding Wasps to Account (10 Viewers)

[hutch1972]

A shorter arrangement is fine. But don't then moan that Wasps are personalising the stadium for them as a reason to move. Like you do !!
It will take the best part of 10 years to fund, plan and build a new stadium so why not have a 10 year rolling deal ?

I'd certainly go for the long term deal, purely on the basis that within that time wasps will be crying out for financial help.
Take away the large Xmas gate and the upcoming Leicester game you will see an average of around 14kish.
This is for a team who are top of the league and supposedly one of Europe's finest.
Big salaries and thousands of freebies every week will eventually lead to a meltdown.
I just hope we are around when that happens.

 

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[sky blue john]

Why would Sisu want to negotiate a new deal never mind a long term one?
When I should imagine the plan is to distress wasps untill the bond is due.
Without a new deal it probably will affect the value wasps can get for the stadium naming rights renewal !

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

When CCFC returned to the Ricoh they negotiated a contract of service with the operators. The level of provision of food, etc would be covered in the schedules attached to the contract.
Given SISU's default position of placing any partner in court for breach of contract, then the question we ought to be asking is "WHY have they not instructed their lawyers regarding the change in serve provision to it's customers"?
My guess is that the operator is working to the contract and eradicating any additional services which are not covered, if they do not generate a suitable return.

 

[hutch1972]

If the trust ever took over the club. Hoffman and Elliott would be immediately installed. The same two who helped bring sisu here. The same Hoffman who having worked in the financial industry,should have known exactly what sisu were about. Elliott has been around the club for years and not made a jot of difference. We need a clean slate. On that basis I pray the trust don't take us over. I have little faith in the trust and zero faith in them two.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.
I have heard people state that Southampton knew what sisu were about , this is not true and the only reason they didn't end up owning them was the terms of the deal.
The them chairman ( R Lowe iic) wanted more money up front than was offered and so it broke down. Nothing whatsoever about not trusting a hedge fund.

 

[fernandopartridge]

My guess is that the operator is working to the contract and eradicating any additional services which are not covered, if they do not generate a suitable return.

Yes, I don't think that's in dispute. It just shows the lack of goodwill on the part of Wasps towards CCFC and its supporters.

Never mind though, I am sure CCFC fans can understand the hard-nosed way Wasps are approaching this!

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Sorry mate, you're well off the mark They didn't run the business well at all, the revenue streams they inherited.

The revenue steams you are speaking about were there due to one of the other individuals involved at that time that I mentioned. Good bloke that was a city fan, created hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of repeat business but had his budget cut and hands tied. He left as he couldn't work under the new conditions and guess what has since done very well at one of the biggest football clubs in the world as well as one or two others including a current Premier League club. His order book went with him, they didn't want to deal with Coventry City, they wanted to deal with him. He warned Onye of that but he still went ahead anyway.

 

[Nick]

The revenue steams you are speaking about were there due to one of the other individuals involved at that time that I mentioned. Good bloke that was a city fan, created hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of repeat business but had his budget cut and hands tied. He left as he couldn't work under the new conditions and guess what has since done very well at one of the biggest football clubs in the world as well as one or two others Premier League club. His order book went with him, they didn't want to deal with Coventry City, they wanted to deal with him. He warned Onye of that but he still went ahead anyway.

Who was that?

 

[Colin Steins Smile]

Yes, I don't think that's in dispute. It just shows the lack of goodwill on the part of Wasps towards CCFC and its supporters.

Never mind though, I am sure CCFC fans can understand the hard-nosed way Wasps are approaching this!

The other point is the volume of sales that CCFC generates. There was a quote [not sure how accurate it was...] that stated WASPS games generates four times the volume of food and drink sales than CCFC.

 

[fernandopartridge]

The revenue steams you are speaking about were there due to one of the other individuals involved at that time that I mentioned. Good bloke that was a city fan, created hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of repeat business but had his budget cut and hands tied. He left as he couldn't work under the new conditions and guess what has since done very well at one of the biggest football clubs in the world as well as one or two others including a current Premier League club. His order book went with him, they didn't want to deal with Coventry City, they wanted to deal with him. He warned Onye of that but he still went ahead anyway.

He had his budget cut because the budget wasn't meeting the outgoings.

CCFC Ltd:

Losses before tax:

year ending 31/5/2007 turnover £7.7m loss -£2.8m
year ending 31/5/2008 (SISU's first 6 months from Dec 2007) turnover £9.2m loss -£8.3m]
year ending 31/5/2009 turnover £8.9m loss -£7.6m
year ending 31/5/2010 turnover £9.3m loss -£3.1m

 

[fernandopartridge]

The other point is the volume of sales that CCFC generates. There was a quote [not sure how accurate it was...] that stated WASPS games generates four times the volume of food and drink sales than CCFC.

Yes, understand that completely. I don't have any great issue with Wasps withdrawing the food and beverage tbh. If it isn't paying for them it's up to them, it just demonstrates how tight their margins are to me.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing though.
I have heard people state that Southampton knew what sisu were about , this is not true and the only reason they didn't end up owning them was the terms of the deal.
The them chairman ( R Lowe iic) wanted more money up front than was offered and so it broke down. Nothing whatsoever about not trusting a hedge fund.

Spot on. I've posted this a few times over the past couple of years.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Just to add - I'm not sure if it was Lowe himself or other board members but that is what was reported in the local rag post the deal falling down.

 

[hutch1972]

The other point is the volume of sales that CCFC generates. There was a quote [not sure how accurate it was...] that stated WASPS games generates four times the volume of food and drink sales than CCFC.

Drinking in your seats during the match would account for the most of that.

 

[Gosford Green]

I've posted on another thread about Wasps and the pies - a short sharp 'no comment' on pie-gate which to me just isn't good enough.

Just read on twitter (not sure how to post screen shots on here) Gilbert of CT fame with a quick exchange where he was asked if CT could ask Wasps about if a long-term Ricoh agreement could be developed.
His response was 'We have. They say it's not a priority for them at the moment. Previously pointed to legal action from Sisu.'

Is it just me, or is that just a let off for Wasps/ ACL (again)? Where is the scrutiny? Where is the 'investigative' journalism in the public interest that the CT keep banging on about?

I'm sure when the Ricoh deal was done somewhere it said 'it can't be to the detriment of ccfc'. Obviously that is laughable, but why is there no follow up to Wasps not having any interest in negotiations? How has it got to the fact that the football club has no home in 18 months and discussions 'aren't a priority' for wasps? Don't get me wrong, I know our owners have alienated everyone, but wasps just seem to say 'we aren't interested' or 'no comment' and that's it - end of story.

It's a rhetorical question, I know why the CT don't challenge wasps/ ACL but what do we do, just lie down and take this blatant onesidedness? How can the CT not push this any further, yet deem it newsworthy enough to highlight that CCFC have expensive pies and programmes?!!

I'm far from a Gilbert fan, as many aren't on here, but he doesn't seem to do himself many favours by coming across as so one-sided, or is this just me getting wound up by it??

I asked a few weeks ago why no one on here who are among the loudest making anti CCC and Wasps noises do not take Wasps to task.

The silence is as it was then, deafening.

 

[torchomatic]

I asked a few weeks ago why no one on here among the loudest making anti CCC and Wasps noises does not take Wasps to task.

The silence is as it was then, deafening.

I wonder the same. Why didn't the local press kick up a fuss? Why didn't the Trust kick up a fuss? Why didn't fans kick up a fuss? Why did they march into town without a whimper from anyone? Strange, isn't it? I certainly don't remember you saying anything about it. Then again, it screws up SISU, doesn't it? OK, fair enough it screws the club too, but that doesn't matter, as long as SISU were fucked up.

 

[hutch1972]

I dislike sisu with a passion, but my thinking at the time was that ccfc with at least a half share in the stadium would have been a much more saleable asset.
It may well be that sisu could possibly have gone by now.
As we all know now , wasps wanted 100% and that's what they got, even though they basically re-mortgaged to finance it.
I might be wrong but was that not the main reason ccc didn't want sisu to own any part of it ?

 

[Nick]

I dislike sisu with a passion, but my thinking at the time was that ccfc with at least a half share in the stadium would have been a much more saleable asset.
It may well be that sisu could possibly have gone by now.
As we all know now , wasps wanted 100% and that's what they got, even though they basically re-mortgaged to finance it.
I might be wrong but was that not the main reason ccc didn't want sisu to own any part of it ?

Our fans made a petition against the sale to SISU because they would mortgage and get money against the local asset.

Good business when Wasps did it

 

[italiahorse]

Surely you could be pressing the council on the condition of the Wasps sale that it won't be damaging CCFC? Haven't really heard too much about it.

According to Duggins, the council can make a difference.

Is everything their fault? Of course it isn't, but they are still there and shouldn't be ignored.

That guarantee does not go on forever,
If Sisu continue to arse around then CCFC will be out on a limb with CCC and more importantly Wasps

 

[italiahorse]

I dislike sisu with a passion, but my thinking at the time was that ccfc with at least a half share in the stadium would have been a much more saleable asset.
It may well be that sisu could possibly have gone by now.
As we all know now , wasps wanted 100% and that's what they got, even though they basically re-mortgaged to finance it.
I might be wrong but was that not the main reason ccc didn't want sisu to own any part of it ?

Why would anyone want to work with Sisu? That's the real reason.

 

[Nick]

That guarantee does not go on forever,
If Sisu continue to arse around then CCFC will be out on a limb with CCC and more importantly Wasps

So how long does a guarantee and a condition last? Wasn't that part of the reasoning for it also, that it wouldn't damage CCFC and Cov Rugby?

 

[torchomatic]

I dislike sisu with a passion, but my thinking at the time was that ccfc with at least a half share in the stadium would have been a much more saleable asset.
It may well be that sisu could possibly have gone by now.
As we all know now , wasps wanted 100% and that's what they got, even though they basically re-mortgaged to finance it.
I might be wrong but was that not the main reason ccc didn't want sisu to own any part of it ?

Absolutely, if SISU had purchased the stadium at some point over the last nine years then I truly believe they wouldn't still be here. We'd have a much more attractive purchase to potential investors. As Nick says we had petitions from fans and others sharing templates begging the council NOT to sell to SISU as they would just borrow against the stadium. Wasps did exactly that within a month of getting the lease. To use a phrase well used on here "you couldn't make it up".

 

[italiahorse]

Exactly right , The quotes from AL regarding the sale are available for everyone to see.
They would only sell if the deal would not negatively impact either ccfc or crc.
That has turned out to be a load of old Bollocks , has it not ?.

That guarantee is not cart blanche for Sisu to continue to irritate.
They have hardly made any steps to sort this out in the 2 years + that Wasps have been here.
Anybody a party to what Sisu are doing with the court cases ?

 

[italiahorse]

So how long does a guarantee and a condition last? Wasn't that part of the reasoning for it also, that it wouldn't damage CCFC and Cov Rugby?

Not forever if CCFC don't want to help themselves.
CRFC seem stronger now than they have been for many years.

 

[torchomatic]

That guarantee is not cart blanche for Sisu to continue to irritate.
They have hardly made any steps to sort this out in the 2 years + that Wasps have been here.
Anybody a party to what Sisu are doing with the court cases ?

So, Ann telling lies is actually the clubs fault then?

 

[hutch1972]

Wasps chief says fresh Sisu legal action 'won't harm relationship'

 

[italiahorse]

Absolutely, if SISU had purchased the stadium at some point over the last nine years then I truly believe they wouldn't still be here. We'd have a much more attractive purchase to potential investors. As Nick says we had petitions from fans and others sharing templates begging the council NOT to sell to SISU as they would just borrow against the stadium. Wasps did exactly that within a month of getting the lease. To use a phrase well used on here "you couldn't make it up".

At what point did SISU make an offer for the stadium ?

 

[italiahorse]

So, Ann telling lies is actually the clubs fault then?

She probably got assurances from Wasps that CCFC would remain at the stadium.
Is that not still the case?
Come back to me when CCFC are not at the stadium.

 

[torchomatic]

She probably got assurances from Wasps that CCFC would remain at the stadium.
Is that not still the case?
Come back to me when CCFC are not at the stadium.

But Wasps are refusing to talk to the club, aren't they? They say because of legals but no legals involve Wasps, so why are they delaying negotiations?

 

[hutch1972]

At what point did SISU make an offer for the stadium ?

It doesn't matter if they made a bid during the first minute or last minute , they made a rightful bid for the Higgs share, which we all know was never going to be accepted whatever the amount or conditions.

 

[italiahorse]

Wasps chief says fresh Sisu legal action 'won't harm relationship'

LOL, read it.
“We have a fantastic relationship with Steve Waggott and Steve Brookfield at the football club and we know they are grateful for the new pitch.”

They've gone

 

[torchomatic]

At what point did SISU make an offer for the stadium ?

They were never offered the same deal as Wasps. And you may remember that "hell would freeze over" before the owners got the stadium. I would think that would make CCFC fans angry, but no, it doesn't seem to.

 

[Nick]

She probably got assurances from Wasps that CCFC would remain at the stadium.

That's a completely different thing to :

1. The security and future of Coventry City Football Club

 

[italiahorse]

But Wasps are refusing to talk to the club, aren't they? They say because of legals but no legals involve Wasps, so why are they delaying negotiations?

So when Wasps give us a new short term deal of £400K a year with same limited access to revenues all will be good ?

 

[Nick]

It doesn't matter if they made a bid during the first minute or last minute , they made a rightful bid for the Higgs share, which we all know was never going to be accepted whatever the amount or conditions.

Exactly, the council had already agreed an extended lease at that point

Imagine if Higgs refused to sell and they got 50% of a long lease.

 

[italiahorse]

They were never offered the same deal as Wasps. And you may remember that "hell would freeze over" before the owners got the stadium. I would think that would make CCFC fans angry, but no, it doesn't seem to.

So Wasps made an offer but CCFC had to be made an offer ?