The mammoth sum Coventry City owners Sisu would need to walk away without loss (14 Viewers)

[The Bobster]

His support for such a vile company as Sisu and blatant lack of understanding of hedge fund finances beggar belief . Suggest the CET speak to a proper financial expert and not this jumped up egotistical book keeper .
He needs bringing to task .

 

---

[singers_pore]

Send him an email: [email protected]
I have just emailed him to let him know that he has no idea about accounting.

 

[martcov]

How the fuck do sisu need 101m? That's not right. On administration and liquidation a lot of that was lost one way or another wasn't it.

We need osb on this article as I trust him a lot more than this CT "expert"

They converted the 60 m debt into shares after administration. To get that back they need to sell the shares for the same price. It is lost as debt - but if they are to come out not losing any money, then they have to get the shares money back. There was no liquidation.

 

[sky blue john]

Yes the accounts are one thing we need to be able to understand. But also it may be wise for the CT to get an independant hedge fund specialist to do an article. This may give us more of an insight to Sisu's plans !

 

[ecky]

I get the feeling the Telegraph are sick of being out in the cold, hence the 'positive' story to try and get back in the SISU's good books.

Well they won't sell many after this move!

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

My God if I ran my business this way I would have confused myself.
To my mind there was always a figure and I stated it before many times, around 30m would see them off.

Sp perhaps we should be looking at two things:
1. What do you get for 30m?
2. Who has and would consider 30m was worth a punt in a football club with potential stature greater than its current position?
3. What additional funding over and above the 30m would be needed to advance our club?

On the other hand a potential suitor might surely wait to see SISU bring in the administrators, and collect at pennies on the dollar.
The real frustration here is that we won't even hit the administration button.

This thread is complete bollocks but I don't mean about the accountant or the telegraph but us fans.
Paxman II picks a figure out of thin air, then it is questioned whether the great Wolverhampton Wanderers are bigger than Coventry City. Of course they are by every measurement, but what is that other than fluff in this discussion?
Is the accountant correct that we should be grateful to them? Are we fans deluded to the point that we can't see that they are our jack walker, our Russian ogliarch, our Chinamen?
Who gives a shit whether the playing budget is tiny or massive, surely the only thing that matters here is that we are going headlong in to oblivion, potentially no ground after next season(and no conversations going forward about what we will do), no academy base after this season?
Wembley is candy floss in our situation and it matters not if OSB asks probing questions, Paxman II has a figure in his head or even if Jeremy Paxman ask the questions, our situation doesn't change if we had a 2.1million budget or that Grendel is dismissive of Italiahorse's belief that Wasps will take us over and we live happily ever after.
Conspiracy theory like the uncovering that this accountant had a commercial tie up with the club is unimportant, remember in October 15 we were about to challenge Leicester for the story of the year?
The Coventry Telegraph and Simon Gilbert are not our mouth pieces, they asked a question and got a response. If you don't like the response then give it the attention you think it deserves
Figures are OSB's strength, Italia puts the Wasps angle in to frame, Grendel adds pithy comments and put downs, Otis quips, Nick defends us from the idiots and somehow still finds time to defend the club and some say the owners(I don't )Others comment about the price of tickets or catering as though that is the reason we are doomed.
We are doomed because we got in to bed with somebody who doesn't love us, like us even, but abuses us, yet how can that be when they have lavished us with their riches and expertise?
IMO they are like drug dealers who watch the addict descend to their death and feel no remorse and don't look back at the corpse they created.
For this man who has happily invested 50 years of love in to my club, I feel defiled, yes by the fact we are in this situation but also how the fuck did we let it happen and do the grand sum of NOPM or hold a why? piece of paper or throw a foam pig on a pitch to stop it? Now that is a question Simon Gilbert should ask.

 

[dongonzalos]

End of the day SISU invested people's money really poorly. Then employed the wrong people to manage that investment, time and time again. Also at times ignored the right people the rare occasions they were on board.
Then they spectacularly messed up their solution to the mess that they had created. Upsetting a lot of partner agencies the club depends on in the process, infact they are still upsetting them.
The football club and the fans have been suffering ever since because of this consistent poor decision making and wrong approach by the owners.
Whether it is 30 million, 40 million or 100 million, it is completely irrelevant. They will never get anywhere near any of those figures back.
Now it seems we will continue to suffer whilst they refuse to accept and face up to the mess they have created.
Luckily those partner agencies seem to have an issue with the owners themselves. When they do finally move on I am sure the club will receive support again.

 

[oldskyblue58]

They converted the 60 m debt into shares after administration. To get that back they need to sell the shares for the same price. It is lost as debt - but if they are to come out not losing any money, then they have to get the shares money back. There was no liquidation.

Please look at my previous posts

The loans did not cost them anything, zip, nada, zilch, they are clever accountancy use of paper figures. All legal. In fact some(most) of what was converted relates to inter company loans that existed before SISU even bought in. But in any case the money they actually put in still exists as liabilities of the group. It is only when you look at a particular company in isolation that you get a distorted figure. That is why it is vital to look at the whole picture, the whole group, to see what is going on. Of course managing and exploiting debt is what SISU specialise in.

Had issued preference shares represented actual cash in to the business it would show up on the cash flow statements. Had loans been received to the tune of £65m they would have shown up on the cash flow statements before they got converted to pref shares

If they sold the preference shares of £65m for £1 they would be in profit because the preference shares cost them nothing in the first place.

One problem SISU have with this group set up is that the £28m invested by their investors was invested through SBS&L not Otium (which is CCFC) So sell Otium and there is no way to include the SBS&L £28m in the deal.............. unless the purchaser agrees to take the liability, or the preference shares over - frankly be mad to do that. Makes Otium so toxic as to be unsaleable to a third party in my opinion and to make Otium something SBS&L can not get rid or let go of.

The preference shares are smoke screen really

 

[oldskyblue58]

So £1 then?

Proof of funds is easy then..............

 

[oldskyblue58]

OSB I was referring to

As to TF it depends on what he is asked I suppose

meeting is not about me so why would anyone expect me to provide any financial revelations on Monday night

As for Fisher - makes no difference what he is asked he will only provide the message he wants to put over on the night.

At a guess the message will be............ get behind the team, protests don't help, the club has to be self sufficient, has to get new income streams, no one has provided proof of funds to bid, we have reduced losses, everyone is against us. Oh and BPA is where we want to be get behind it we will be better off but I cant tell you by how much or why, we are working on it so believe us

 

[fernandopartridge]

Proof of funds is easy then..............

Knowing our luck the bidder would used the soon to be outdated pound coin

 

[oldfiver]

meeting is not about me so why would anyone expect me to provide any financial revelations on Monday night

As for Fisher - makes no difference what he is asked he will only provide the message he wants to put over on the night.

At a guess the message will be............ get behind the team, protests don't help, the club has to be self sufficient, has to get new income streams, no one has provided proof of funds to bid, we have reduced losses, everyone is against us. Oh and BPA is where we want to be get behind it we will be better off but I cant tell you by how much or why, we are working on it so believe us

You should ask SBT what he is expecting of you
skybluetony176
Are you going to the Trust meeting OSB? Please say yes.

As to your comment on Fisher - won't the Trust and others not be doing the same?

 

[oldfiver]

Proof of funds is easy then..............

It depends who the bidder is !!

 

[oldfiver]

Please look at my previous posts

The loans did not cost them anything, zip, nada, zilch, they are clever accountancy use of paper figures. All legal. In fact some(most) of what was converted relates to inter company loans that existed before SISU even bought in. But in any case the money they actually put in still exists as liabilities of the group. It is only when you look at a particular company in isolation that you get a distorted figure. That is why it is vital to look at the whole picture, the whole group, to see what is going on. Of course managing and exploiting debt is what SISU specialise in.

Had issued preference shares represented actual cash in to the business it would show up on the cash flow statements. Had loans been received to the tune of £65m they would have shown up on the cash flow statements before they got converted to pref shares

If they sold the preference shares of £65m for £1 they would be in profit because the preference shares cost them nothing in the first place.

One problem SISU have with this group set up is that the £28m invested by their investors was invested through SBS&L not Otium (which is CCFC) So sell Otium and there is no way to include the SBS&L £28m in the deal.............. unless the purchaser agrees to take the liability, or the preference shares over - frankly be mad to do that. Makes Otium so toxic as to be unsaleable to a third party in my opinion and to make Otium something SBS&L can not get rid or let go of.

The preference shares are smoke screen really

But this is all a nonsense ( not your analyses btw ) - SISU have not said the Club is for sale nor what they would expect if it was. I certainly do not recall them saying they want £101umpty million. So all this is irrelevant until they make a statement of what they expect to get. All the analytics in the world mean nothing until that day. You have made ( at least ) 2 suggestions as to to what you value the club for and you may be right but that is where it ends, for now

 

[oldfiver]

End of the day SISU invested people's money really poorly. Then employed the wrong people to manage that investment, time and time again. Also at times ignored the right people the rare occasions they were on board.
Then they spectacularly messed up their solution to the mess that they had created. Upsetting a lot of partner agencies the club depends on in the process, infact they are still upsetting them.
The football club and the fans have been suffering ever since because of this consistent poor decision making and wrong approach by the owners.
Whether it is 30 million, 40 million or 100 million, it is completely irrelevant. They will never get anywhere near any of those figures back.
Now it seems we will continue to suffer whilst they refuse to accept and face up to the mess they have created.
Luckily those partner agencies seem to have an issue with the owners themselves. When they do finally move on I am sure the club will receive support again.

You do know CCFC was £60m in debt while at Highfield Road ?

 

[Paxman II]

This thread is complete bollocks but I don't mean about the accountant or the telegraph but us fans.
Paxman II picks a figure out of thin air, then it is questioned whether the great Wolverhampton Wanderers are bigger than Coventry City. Of course they are by every measurement, but what is that other than fluff in this discussion?
Is the accountant correct that we should be grateful to them? Are we fans deluded to the point that we can't see that they are our jack walker, our Russian ogliarch, our Chinamen?
Who gives a shit whether the playing budget is tiny or massive, surely the only thing that matters here is that we are going headlong in to oblivion, potentially no ground after next season(and no conversations going forward about what we will do), no academy base after this season?
Wembley is candy floss in our situation and it matters not if OSB asks probing questions, Paxman II has a figure in his head or even if Jeremy Paxman ask the questions, our situation doesn't change if we had a 2.1million budget or that Grendel is dismissive of Italiahorse's belief that Wasps will take us over and we live happily ever after.
Conspiracy theory like the uncovering that this accountant had a commercial tie up with the club is unimportant, remember in October 15 we were about to challenge Leicester for the story of the year?
The Coventry Telegraph and Simon Gilbert are not our mouth pieces, they asked a question and got a response. If you don't like the response then give it the attention you think it deserves
Figures are OSB's strength, Italia puts the Wasps angle in to frame, Grendel adds pithy comments and put downs, Otis quips, Nick defends us from the idiots and somehow still finds time to defend the club and some say the owners(I don't )Others comment about the price of tickets or catering as though that is the reason we are doomed.
We are doomed because we got in to bed with somebody who doesn't love us, like us even, but abuses us, yet how can that be when they have lavished us with their riches and expertise?
IMO they are like drug dealers who watch the addict descend to their death and feel no remorse and don't look back at the corpse they created.
For this man who has happily invested 50 years of love in to my club, I feel defiled, yes by the fact we are in this situation but also how the fuck did we let it happen and do the grand sum of NOPM or hold a why? piece of paper or throw a foam pig on a pitch to stop it? Now that is a question Simon Gilbert should ask.

You are absolutelt right in a lot of what you say. What I don't understand is why you are making assumptions on how you interpreted post made by the people you mentioned into some form of attack, as though anything they said is wrong? If I read Nick's post I consistently arrive at the opinion he tries to be neutral and raise both sides of the equation. Because you see it with tunnel vision you are clearly unable to see that. The same can be said of others you quote.
But here's the rub, and something else you have missed in your clear anger. We all share the same sentiment as you. There can be no doubt we all want SISU gone from our club. So what's your problem?
Everyone is entitled to their thoughts, some in my opinion are inexperienced guesses or based on a lack understanding of the issues and at times include my self in that. But that does not mean they don't get to state their opinions. By doing so people far more versed in the back office than me, like OSB58 can give a correction which is helpful to all in trying to get a factual handle on the situation. It's actually very useful to have everyone's opinions as many raise interesting ones and sometimes silly ones. Everyone on a forum gets their say. If you don't agree you get the chance at rebuttal.
A forum is full of people from all walks of life, various experiences and levels of intellect. We are not all the same.

What is the same is everyone on here shares your sentiment about our football clubs demise.

 

[NortonSkyBlue]

You are absolutelt right in a lot of what you say. What I don't understand is why you are making assumptions on how you interpreted post made by the people you mentioned into some form of attack, as though anything they said is wrong? If I read Nick's post I consistently arrive at the opinion he tries to be neutral and raise both sides of the equation. Because you see it with tunnel vision you are clearly unable to see that. The same can be said of others you quote.
But here's the rub, and something else you have missed in your clear anger. We all share the same sentiment as you. There can be no doubt we all want SISU gone from our club. So what's your problem?
Everyone is entitled to their thoughts, some in my opinion are inexperienced guesses or based on a lack understanding of the issues and at times include my self in that. But that does not mean they don't get to state their opinions. By doing so people far more versed in the back office than me, like OSB58 can give a correction which is helpful to all in trying to get a factual handle on the situation. It's actually very useful to have everyone's opinions as many raise interesting ones and sometimes silly ones. Everyone on a forum gets their say. If you don't agree you get the chance at rebuttal.
A forum is full of people from all walks of life, various experiences and levels of intellect. We are not all the same.

What is the same is everyone on here shares your sentiment about our football clubs demise.

You are incorrect when you say I am angry, I don't wish to offend anyone or call them out. I am upset that in crude terms the price of a pie is an issue or whether the playing budget is up to scratch. Those should be the issues a normal clubs fans are asking, not one where the perceived business model success equates to the club being destroyed.
I have no malice towards any poster nor would I post regarding the intellect of any poster but I am of the opinion that we are long past whether the price of a cup of tea has any relevance or even if we win a game of football tomorrow or at Wembley.
All things considered though I accept your points and hope that you will note that my concern is about the inertia displayed by our fans, we are watching it happen in front of our eyes and frankly are doing less than fuck all about it.
A meeting with Tim Fisher will yield more for him than it will for those interested in the future of the club. I could write the responses to the fans questions now and so could any of us.
He is totally teflon, should we be grateful for their support in keeping the club going? Are they our jack walker as I asked in my earlier post?

 

[skybluetony176]

You should ask SBT what he is expecting of you
skybluetony176
Are you going to the Trust meeting OSB? Please say yes.

As to your comment on Fisher - won't the Trust and others not be doing the same?

I explained all that in reply to Grendull but to clear it up I'm not expecting anything of OSB. What i would like to see is someone there who can correct TF with the facts if *IF* (that's a big if) he starts using these figures as some sort of "fact" and unlike me and you OSB fits that mold. So why wouldn't I want to see him there? Why wouldn't you?

 

[oldfiver]

I explained all that in reply to Grendull but to clear it up I'm not expecting anything of OSB. What i would like to see is someone there who can correct TF with the facts if *IF* (that's a big if) he starts using these figures as some sort of "fact" and unlike me and you OSB fits that mold. So why wouldn't I want to see him there? Why wouldn't you?

You are missing what I said - there is no point analysing the past capitalisation or otherwise of loans and other inputs. If there is one - what is it? It will not give you a figure that a) SISU might sell for or b) What anyone will buy for.

I haven't said I would not want to see OSB there - I could not care less one way or another ( that is not a personal slight on him either ).

 

[Liquid Gold]

:emoji_pray:

 

[skybluetony176]

You are missing what I said - there is no point analysing the past capitalisation or otherwise of loans and other inputs. If there is one - what is it? It will not give you a figure that a) SISU might sell for or b) What anyone will buy for.

I haven't said I would not want to see OSB there - I could not care less one way or another ( that is not a personal slight on him either ).

In which case you've missed my point. It was never about selling or at what price. It was about TF not being allowed to use the opportunity to sell the misinterpretation of the books as reported in the CT as fact. That requires someone who is capable of understanding the group figures and history. I.E. not you or me.

 

[skybluetony176]

It depends who the bidder is !!

Whoever it is I'll give them a quid myself. Found one in a pair of clean jeans I pulled out of the laundry pile this morning. Here's the proof of funds.

 

[oldfiver]

In which case you've missed my point. It was never about selling or at what price. It was about TF not being allowed to use the opportunity to sell the misinterpretation of the books as reported in the CT as fact. That requires someone who is capable of understanding the group figures and history. I.E. not you or me.

How do you know I would not understand?
Also it is not history we are after - it is the future that is more important

 

[oldfiver]

Whoever it is I'll give them a quid myself. Found one in a pair of clean jeans I pulled out of the laundry pile this morning. Here's the proof of funds.

View attachment 6810

I dont think OSB agreed his figures equalled £1 so I assume that is not enough

 

[Grendel]

In which case you've missed my point. It was never about selling or at what price. It was about TF not being allowed to use the opportunity to sell the misinterpretation of the books as reported in the CT as fact. That requires someone who is capable of understanding the group figures and history. I.E. not you or me.

I think Oldfiver would understand them perfectly well

 

[skybluetony176]

How do you know I would not understand?
Also it is not history we are after - it is the future that is more important

Because I've cringed on your behalf when I've seen you try to pull apart some of OSB's analysis's in the past.

 

[oldfiver]

Because I've cringed on your behalf when I've seen you try to pull apart some of OSB's analysis's in the past.

I have not tried to pull apart any of his analyses - at times I question his results because they sometimes are based on his opinion and we can all have our opinions
Do not cringe on my behalf I am fully capable of standing up for myself far better than you can do it for me

 

[oldfiver]

I think Oldfiver would understand them perfectly well

You might well be right but I honestly could not comment!

 

[skybluetony176]

I have not tried to pull apart any of his analyses - at times I question his results because they sometimes are based on his opinion and we can all have our opinions
Do not cringe on my behalf I am fully capable of standing up for myself far better than you can do it for me

LOL, if you say so.

 

[Grendel]

LOL, if you say so.

Old Fiver clearly has an accounting background.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

Old Fiver clearly has an accounting background.

I have a degree in accountancy but found statutory reporting so dull respect to those that do it as a career but wasn't for me.

 

[skybluetony176]

Old Fiver clearly has an accounting background.

Do you think so?

 

[Grendel]

Do you think so?

OSB said it once to him so I would say so yes

 

[olderskyblue]

OSB said it once to him so I would say so yes

He probably has, but lets not forget, so has the guy in the article, hasn't he?

Although I would guess oldfiver has more understanding of our situation than him by a long way...

 

[Grendel]

He probably has, but lets not forget, so has the guy in the article, hasn't he?

Although I would guess oldfiver has more understanding of our situation than him by a long way...

All 3 I'm sure have equal understanding. It's how they interpret information.

The article is clearly very strange. It's been done with a purpose - what and why the CT printed it I'm not dure