Time to man up and take the blame Thorn (14 Viewers)

[Colonel Mustard]

Majority of fans expected a relegation battle but didn't expect to be effectively relegated by the new year.

That's doing AT a service. We were effectively relegated by the end of November!

 

---

[Mr T - Sukka!]

Last season we had Marlon King up front.

This year we have Roy " Which way am i supposed to be shooting" O'Donavan.

No more needs to be said really as to why we are in trouble.

 

[georgehudson]

so therefore 'CM' what is your solution ?
on a reasoned & balanced level who would you advocate should take the reigns ?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

so therefore 'CM' what is your solution ?
on a reasoned & balanced level who would you advocate should take the reigns ?

Gregor Rioch. He's a winning manager at the academy, he's on the club payroll, and he has developed all of the academy graduates in the squad.

 

[Paxman II]

AT is complicit in the demise of the club this season - no doubt about that. He should have been doing better than we have so far with the tools he has.
Lets not forget however Harrison. In my mind probably as culpable as AT. he's the one constant factor in all 3 of the last management failures.
SISU is another story but with what we have we should not be cast adrift at the bottom like we are.

 

[georgehudson]

logical thought, but would GR be able, or allowed, to speculate/invest, on recruitment ?
how would sisu (financially), move the club forward ?
& where would the likes of 'harrison' & 'thorn' be moved to ?

 

[Otis]

Agree, Paxman.

We all know the constraints, but I simply cannot understand anyone who refuses to accept that AT is completely blameless in everything. Every mistkae he makes there always seem to be an excuse for and he always gets off scot free.

Bottom line is the guy has made a number of errors and it simply is not all down to "look what he has to work with!"

 

[Astute]

The bigger and better your squad the less chance there is of making mistakes. Also more chance of your team getting a result so most don't even notice your mistakes.

 

[Otis]

True. Very true.

The way I see it is, the team isn't good enough, the squad is too small, but we also have a manager who is not good enough to get what is required from the team.

It's a mixture of players, numbers, lack of investment, board and manager.

 

[Grendel]

I'm sorry - he's got a squad that finished 18th and had 9 first team players taken away.

We're still playing the same attractive football that got him the job and creating enough chances to win games. If Marlon King was still here we'd be doing much better - not to mention the rest of them.

Where do people imagine we ought to be with this squad? I think it's the worst squad in the league.

We could hold a quiz here to try and identify the "missing 9". Well a lot of these players were never in first team contention and are certainly no better than what we have got. O'Halloran was a disaster, Osbourne mediocre when fit, McIndoe constantly was ridiculed by our supporters, is Quirke on the 9?
So when you say 9 you mean 4. Turner never played a game for Thorn so did not contribute to the entertaining spectacle we allegedly saw last season (which by the way has now bought 1 away win since Thorn took over). Marlon King was only here because of his relationship with Boothroyd. If Thorn was in charge when King was available he would never even consider playing under him don't even bother to make an argument for him. Westwood would have left the club whoever the owners were as he was off to the Premiership. Our goals against ratio is no worse now anyway that it was then. You admit King was the factor well keeping Boothroyd would have been the only hope of keeping him. So we lost Gunnarson effectively.
This terrible squad managed to win back to back games recently. How is that possible with such a dire squad? Or is it just they have been under-achieving even by their own poor standards up to then? When this occured the Thorn disciples are quick to say told you so he is a good manager. So anyone who credits him for a win can expect comments back when we lose again, again and again.
We don't have to play youth players all the time - Thorn left Wood on the bench first game - his choice to play Christie.
Resources are what they are - look at our old friend Peter Reid. At Plymouth his resources made ours look like Manchester City. He was even helping to fund the club and was personal friends with the Chairman. But they were bottom of the league so what happened? His friend removed him from duty. Reid knows the score and did take it like a man.
Coventry are too lax with managers, most are never given a hard time (other than Reid and to a lesser extent Adams). Leicester want there manager booted after 8 games.
So I'm sorry you'll have to do a LOT better than that.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

True. Very true.

The way I see it is, the team isn't good enough, the squad is too small, but we also have a manager who is not good enough to get what is required from the team.

It's a mixture of players, numbers, lack of investment, board and manager.

Quite true Otis. To take a view any more simple, or directed only at Thorn is short sighted in the extreme

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Coventry are too lax with managers? What a bizarre claim; and not one which a sits readily alongside the revolving door of changing faces over the last 5 to 10 years

 

[city old boy]

We could hold a quiz here to try and identify the "missing 9". Well a lot of these players were never in first team contention and are certainly no better than what we have got. O'Halloran was a disaster, Osbourne mediocre when fit, McIndoe constantly was ridiculed by our supporters, is Quirke on the 9?
So when you say 9 you mean 4. Turner never played a game for Thorn so did not contribute to the entertaining spectacle we allegedly saw last season (which by the way has now bought 1 away win since Thorn took over). Marlon King was only here because of his relationship with Boothroyd. If Thorn was in charge when King was available he would never even consider playing under him don't even bother to make an argument for him. Westwood would have left the club whoever the owners were as he was off to the Premiership. Our goals against ratio is no worse now anyway that it was then. You admit King was the factor well keeping Boothroyd would have been the only hope of keeping him. So we lost Gunnarson effectively.
This terrible squad managed to win back to back games recently. How is that possible with such a dire squad? Or is it just they have been under-achieving even by their own poor standards up to then? When this occured the Thorn disciples are quick to say told you so he is a good manager. So anyone who credits him for a win can expect comments back when we lose again, again and again.
We don't have to play youth players all the time - Thorn left Wood on the bench first game - his choice to play Christie.
Resources are what they are - look at our old friend Peter Reid. At Plymouth his resources made ours look like Manchester City. He was even helping to fund the club and was personal friends with the Chairman. But they were bottom of the league so what happened? His friend removed him from duty. Reid knows the score and did take it like a man.
Coventry are too lax with managers, most are never given a hard time (other than Reid and to a lesser extent Adams). Leicester want there manager booted after 8 games.
So I'm sorry you'll have to do a LOT better than that.

Good post KD. I was trying to work out the 9.
have you noticed the players that back him up are mainly the ones with extended contracts

 

[stupot07]

Coventry are too lax with managers? Are you on about the club or the fans.

Also it does make me laugh the arguments that the players we have lost don't count because they were injured (turner,osbourne, carsley), were boothroyds mate (king), would have left anyway (westwood, Gunnarsson) or weren't great anyway (mcindoe, o'halloran).

What a load of tosh, at least 4 would be in the starting line up now and at mcindoe, osbourne and carsley would have been heavily involved with the amount of injuries we've had this season.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Just one point to pick up on, as KD identifies, Leucester look towards incessant manager change. And where's it got them?

They are one of, if not the best resourced team in the division, and they boast a league position not in keeping with their investment. Are all of their managers poor, or is constant change undermining their ability to achieve their goals?

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

Just one point to pick up on, as KD identifies, Leucester look towards incessant manager change. And where's it got them?

They are one of, if not the best resourced team in the division, and they boast a league position not in keeping with their investment. Are all of their managers poor, or is constant change undermining their ability to achieve their goals?

Since they have had the new owners, they sacked off one manager and brought in Svengali. I think if we look back over his record over the last 10 years he is a poor manager of late. They have now sacked him and brought back the original manager that they realise was actually a good manager doing a good job.

So to answer your question, out of their two managers. One was poor.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Since they have had the new owners, they sacked off one manager and brought in Svengali. I think if we look back over his record over the last 10 years he is a poor manager of late. They have now sacked him and brought back the original manager that they realise was actually a good manager doing a good job.

So to answer your question, out of their two managers. One was poor.

And since 2000, they have had 12 managers. Have they all been so bad as to justify a change a season? Or is the policy of incessant change not producing results?

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

And since 2000, they have had 12 managers. Have they all been so bad as to justify a change a season? Or is the policy of incessant change not producing results?

Since 1995 they have only had three managers that I would be happy to see replace Thorn. Pearson, Holloway and the great O' Neill.

So I don't think its the fact that they have chopped the managers so much, I think it's that they picked tosh managers more often than not.

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

The bottom line is that this is a results business...and 4 wins in 27 is a clear indictment of AT's 'success' in the role.

Agreed, he has had a difficult situation to deal with, but he knew that when taking over...if it really is that impossible/frustrating a job, an employee has the option to resign and not be part of such a flawed/impossible role.

AT will do OK out of this....we stay up, he is a hero, we fail, and he can blame SISU.

As manager, he is responsible for tactics, fitness, motivation etc....and just in these three areas he has sadly failed.

Only a handful of mangers in each league have resources to play with, but AT has taken us to 24th out of 24 in a league where most clubs do not have a pot to piss in...so sorry chaps, but AT DOES have a case to answer.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

The bottom line is that this is a results business...and 4 wins in 27 is a clear indictment of AT's 'success' in the role.

Agreed, he has had a difficult situation to deal with, but he knew that when taking over...if it really is that impossible/frustrating a job, an employee has the option to resign and not be part of such a flawed/impossible role.

AT will do OK out of this....we stay up, he is a hero, we fail, and he can blame SISU.

As manager, he is responsible for tactics, fitness, motivation etc....and just in these three areas he has sadly failed.

Only a handful of mangers in each league have resources to play with, but AT has taken us to 24th out of 24 in a league where most clubs do not have a pot to piss in...so sorry chaps, but AT DOES have a case to answer.

BUT AT does not have the tools to work with. We apparently have no fitness coach, with regards tactics I'd say a lot of this is down to the coach Steve whatshisface who has been present throughout our poor form and should have the experience to help sort this mess out. AT has done well with motivation I believe and I think with fitter, more tactically aware players the diamond would work well. So at the end of the day you can have the most skilled carpenter, but take away his tools and he's not going to do a good job.

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

Done well with motivation???!!!

FFS, what have you been watching this season????

I know most of the 1883 club in the main stand miss the start of the 2nd half, but believe me, we are a 45 minute team...on a good day!!!

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

So at the end of the day you can have the most skilled carpenter, but take away his tools and he's not going to do a good job.

But he can have some ideas at least...the only idea AT has is a flawed diamond formation, and a training policy of being '....back at it..'

Oh, and allowing Deegan to eat Chinese 'eat as much as you can' buffets, and have a striker who is still looking for fitness 6 months into the season...that's how much control he has over the players.

The senior players like him because he gives them carte blanche over what they can do...that's clear from the stories coming out of the club.

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

Is it only a fitness coach who can ensure that players are not knackered after 65 minutes????

Weren't there players in the 70s and 80s still going after 90 minutes on energy sapping mudbaths of pitches during much more physical encounters????

As for the 'blame harrison' thought...absolutely correct, so what is AT doing about this clown who is part of AT'S own backroom team???

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Also it does make me laugh the arguments that the players we have lost don't count because they were injured (turner,osbourne, carsley), were boothroyds mate (king), would have left anyway (westwood, Gunnarsson) or weren't great anyway (mcindoe, o'halloran).

Nobody is saying they don't count. The absence of King and Westwood are keenly felt. However, it is unfair to use them as a stick with which to beat SISU and/or back up Thorn.

You can't find a Kieren Westwood every three years. You're not going to get a Prem striker every year on a sweetheart deal because he's just out of prison and happens to be chummy with the manager. And you cannot give contracts to non-contributors.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

AT has done well with motivation I believe

That claim is a tough sell considering that AT recently said that the players need to be mentally stronger.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Nobody is saying they don't count. The absence of King and Westwood are keenly felt. However, it is unfair to use them as a stick with which to beat SISU and/or back up Thorn.

You can't find a Kieren Westwood every three years. You're not going to get a Prem striker every year on a sweetheart deal because he's just out of prison and happens to be chummy with the manager. And you cannot give contracts to non-contributors.

With the greatest of respect to the thrust of your debate here Sir, you are missing the point - as did KD earlier. The debate isn't about how we came about King, or how good Westwood was, or wasn't. The debate is that Thorn operated with a squad last term that did contain this quality - and it was baraly good enough to stay up. The question being, now without them, should expectations of performance realistically be any higher than where we are?

Please don't confuse the debate

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

I'm not saying AT out...I realise that after the mess that has been created (on and off the pitch) who would come here???

However, there are a number of fans who will have nothing negative said about AT...like that lady, Maureen, who texts the radio and slates any CCFC fans for pointing out any issues/negatives.

Bottom line is that AT knew what he was dealing with as the season started...if not he must either be stupid or the eternal optimist....and he had 2 choices;

1) Continue in the role and make the best of it (signing 2 keepers and non-scoring/running/passing striker for £500k suggests he has not done that....as well as results/performances over 6 months)
2) resign and say that it is an impossible job and good luck to the mug who takes it.

By staying, he is accepting the circumstances and therefore has to answer for the on-field performances. I don't fully blame him, I know he has a very difficult role, but he seems immune to any criticism and that is not on in my view.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

With the greatest of respect to the thrust of your debate here Sir, you are missing the point - as did KD earlier. The debate isn't about how we came about King, or how good Westwood was, or wasn't. The debate is that Thorn operated with a squad last term that did contain this quality - and it was baraly good enough to stay up. The question being, now without them, should expectations of performance realistically be any higher than where we are?

No fear, the debate is not being confused. It is evident to all that the squad is poorer than it was last season and that maintaining Championship status would be a struggle. But the "we've lost 13 players" line has gone without examination for too long, and is too readily used as a panacea for AT's struggles.

 

[ICHAN]

AT knew what he was doing when he took the job on he knew all about sisu and the way they operate.
He could have said no thank you I do not want it, inb taking the job he is at the end off the day accountable for 4 wins all season and he knows his job is safe because he is not getting blame for the mess we are in because the fans are focused on sisu and not him.
No other manager would be getting away with it, if this is what we are like under AT then I dread to think what is going to happen if this situation stays when we get relegated and it appears some are not bothered by he fact we will be relegated if this lot stays as it is for any longer and no change is made.
Or will it be sack him with 10 match's to go a new man comes in changes our fortunes again we scrap out our survival somehow and so the rollercoaster continues.

 

[Grendel]

BUT AT does not have the tools to work with. We apparently have no fitness coach, with regards tactics I'd say a lot of this is down to the coach Steve whatshisface who has been present throughout our poor form and should have the experience to help sort this mess out. AT has done well with motivation I believe and I think with fitter, more tactically aware players the diamond would work well. So at the end of the day you can have the most skilled carpenter, but take away his tools and he's not going to do a good job.

Unfortunately we don't have a skilled carpenter but an apprentice who will not make the grade. Give one shred of evidence to suggest thorn is a good manager instead of making excuses for him.

 

[We'll_live_and_die]

Unfortunately we don't have a skilled carpenter but an apprentice who will not make the grade. Give one shred of evidence to suggest thorn is a good manager instead of making excuses for him.

Ok so I agree that Thorn is still an apprentice, BUT the backroom staff are not. They are experienced guys. Why doesn't Thorn get rid of his underperforming backroom staff someone asked. Well i'm sure if Thorn asked for Harrison to be removed he would then end up the same Coach and Fitness Coach.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

No fear, the debate is not being confused. It is evident to all that the squad is poorer than it was last season and that maintaining Championship status would be a struggle. But the "we've lost 13 players" line has gone without examination for too long, and is too readily used as a panacea for AT's struggles.

AT is not a championship manager. That's clear to all except for the deluded, or those living within an institutionalised environment. However, his performance will never truly stand the test of scrutiny; as to have done anything this season would have been to have expected - not hoped - he over-achieve. Which he hasn't been able to do.

He is not THE problem. He's operating at a level way, way out of his depth - because it suits SISU's aspirations he do so

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

• AT is a nice guy...no doubt (but what has this got to do with the debate, Warnock is a prick but who wouldn't want him here...although this is not going to happen, I realise)
• AT has a difficult job with little money to spend (so do the vast majority of manager's outside the Premier league)
• AT has scouted nearly all of these players...he must have recommended them for some use/ability????
• AT has won 4 games all season, taken us to bottom of the league, no away wins, little/no width or pace and persists with a tactic/formation that seasoned pros have said is flawed and almost impossible to employ effectively.
• AT has 2 strikers at the club (combined fees £2m-ish) who have shown sweet FA all season....what has he done to rectify this, he is the MANAGER, isn't he?????

These are some of the facts that AT needs to be judged on...and if nothing else, I am becoming increasingly embarrassed for the bloke when he conducts post-match interviews.

Sacking the manager is a decision which should not be taken lightly, but this guy is taking us headlong into the 'financial armageddon' (quote from Raymondo Ranson, one of our previous saviours), so we need to ensure that we act to either prevent relegation, or if you believe that we are doomed, let's get someone in to begin the rebuilding job now...maybe someone unproven, who has coaching/tactical nous and a plan of playing to win some fooking games!!!

Reading the argument for AT, some fans are resolving AT from any responsibility on the playing side...so what is responsible for, if he cannot stand scrutiny for what happens on the pitch????

 

[LeamingtonBootBoy]

AT is not a championship manager. That's clear to all except for the deluded, or those living within an institutionalised environment. However, his performance will never truly stand the test of scrutiny; as to have done anything this season would have been to have expected - not hoped - he over-achieve. Which he hasn't been able to do.

He is not THE problem. He's operating at a level way, way out of his depth - because it suits SISU's aspirations he do so

But for his own self-dignity he can resign and show SISU for what they really are.

AT could walk and that would have the greatest effect of all on SISU...more effective than any fan protest.

Why doesn't he do that if his '...hands are tied...'/things are so shit????

 

[Colonel Mustard]

AT is not a championship manager. That's clear to all except for the deluded, or those living within an institutionalised environment. However, his performance will never truly stand the test of scrutiny; as to have done anything this season would have been to have expected - not hoped - he over-achieve. Which he hasn't been able to do.

He is not THE problem. He's operating at a level way, way out of his depth - because it suits SISU's aspirations he do so

No-one is saying that he is the problem. People are saying that they'd like to see as much sweat and potential extracted from the players as possible, for the sake of the badge, their personal expenditure, their pride in the city, etc. To rally behind a manager we acknowledge as being out of his depth is surely cutting off our nose to spite our face.