Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
than when Sisu bought the club for £1
How is the club worth more (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Sky Blue Pete
- Start date
RocketSkates
Well-Known Member
They're delusional. Didn't they claim they would need 100mil + to break even if they were to sell? Safe to say their estimations may be quite far away from more realistic offers put forward. They've already turned down 10mil, offers aren't going to get much higher than that. Definitely don't see an offer of over 20 coming in because would take years to make it back, and thats assuming we pull ourselves up to the Championship in maybe less than six seasons. Totally depends on SISU and whether they swallow their pride and cut their losses or if they get a bit between their teeth and keep demanding more. Time will tell
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Couple of points.
Firstly in 2008 Sisu bought the shares which in effect are all the assets the company owns less all liabilities the company has. There were millions more liabilities than assets so it is common to pay a pound or similar for rights to something worthless
As I understand the Hoffman consortium is buying the assets less the football liabilities only. Not the Sisu & ARVO loans Given the value of some of the players (e.g. Stevenson) and the with planning potential value of ryton then it is quite possible the net amount is considerably more than £1.
Like is not being compared with like. The company remains worthless but that is not what Hoffman is trying to buy
In any case the last time Sisu bought the club was not 2008 . The distressed assets less football liabilities were purchased when the club came out of administration and it cost them 1.5m in 2013
Firstly in 2008 Sisu bought the shares which in effect are all the assets the company owns less all liabilities the company has. There were millions more liabilities than assets so it is common to pay a pound or similar for rights to something worthless
As I understand the Hoffman consortium is buying the assets less the football liabilities only. Not the Sisu & ARVO loans Given the value of some of the players (e.g. Stevenson) and the with planning potential value of ryton then it is quite possible the net amount is considerably more than £1.
Like is not being compared with like. The company remains worthless but that is not what Hoffman is trying to buy
In any case the last time Sisu bought the club was not 2008 . The distressed assets less football liabilities were purchased when the club came out of administration and it cost them 1.5m in 2013
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Bob Latchford
Well-Known Member
The club isn't worth more . they've asset stripped everything the club had ie shares , decent players , Ryton . there is very little left . hence why they're now listening to offers . I bet if there was a true audit done , sisu would be well in the black . then to get an offer off Hoffman too , should please their investors no end .
Nick
Administrator
You have just ignored everything OSB has said?
skybluesam66
Well-Known Member
it is worth what ever anybody is prepared to pay
thats why a deal will be done, but after a lot of hard negotiation and bluff/counter bluff
common business sense from both sides
thats why a deal will be done, but after a lot of hard negotiation and bluff/counter bluff
common business sense from both sides
stevefloyd
Well-Known Member
Sisu quite rightly rejected the 1st offer and very quickly a 2nd offer come in allegedly doubling the initial input, once the silly offers die down then we get to the nitty gritty and see if Sisu will 'cash in' we can all live in hope and wait and see
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Quite rightly??? Why are you bothered about how much Sisu get for the club? Very strange
stevefloyd
Well-Known Member
Quite rightly for them not for me ! I want the fuckers gone at all costs
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
If they got it for 1.5m ib 2013 theb we cant be too far away from right figure surely?
Me thinks they want losses back as much as possible. Probably holding out for 20-30m odd
Me thinks they want losses back as much as possible. Probably holding out for 20-30m odd
stevefloyd
Well-Known Member
If they got it for 1.5 mil how long would it be for the nopm brigade to say ' I'm not going to watch while they have to give Sisu money' ?
covcity4life
Well-Known Member
Yeah.maybe upfront 5m might be worth a gonfor bid 3. And then add ons to 15m or whatever.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I'd say with the debt, it's worth giving the club away if the buyer has the cash to build it up. Without the debt or without a buyer you have confidence in, it's a matter of how much you think you can get back. Let's be honest, right now every fan is dreaming of back to backnpromotions and this being a turning point, why wouldn't Joy be thinking the same?
Tl;dr- fuck knows.
Tl;dr- fuck knows.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
OSB is totally right, it seems they aren't looking to purchase everything. They want the assets and to leave the debt behind.
In that scenario its essentially one company selling assets to another so they are going to want, at the very least, the value of the assets. That will include the value of Ryton and an estimation on future transfer income. Add on the value of the CCFC identity and right to play in the league (although that can't technically be sold).
Would suspect it needs to be getting nearer to £5m, if not more, before it gets dismissed out of hand by SISU.
The other issue is that although we tend to think of everything related to SISU as one entity they aren't. If the football operation is all sold off can Otium just be wound up and the loans written off or are they guaranteed in some way. I would assume at the very least for Ryton to be sold it would need the charge removing which would require a payment.
In that scenario its essentially one company selling assets to another so they are going to want, at the very least, the value of the assets. That will include the value of Ryton and an estimation on future transfer income. Add on the value of the CCFC identity and right to play in the league (although that can't technically be sold).
Would suspect it needs to be getting nearer to £5m, if not more, before it gets dismissed out of hand by SISU.
The other issue is that although we tend to think of everything related to SISU as one entity they aren't. If the football operation is all sold off can Otium just be wound up and the loans written off or are they guaranteed in some way. I would assume at the very least for Ryton to be sold it would need the charge removing which would require a payment.
rupert_bear
Well-Known Member
If they did that and wound Otium up to rid debt, which could be likely does that put ccfc (otium) at risk of being deducted points by the football league ? The threat of doing that by Sepalla could add in a perverse way value to the offer, call it a type of blood money whatever.
Arvo have a charge or debenture on all assets. Ryton may be mortgaged , but the equity will probably be covered by Arvo. The value of the assets is therefore what Arvo would accept. Joy controls Arvo and has a duty to her investors- she cannot just throw away their investment, so she will be holding out to get at least as much of Arvo debts plus interest as possible. IMO
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
Have you got a cold?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
That's fine but what value has it got?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
That's really useful thank you
Nick
Administrator
Again it depends what they want to buy, if the club but no debts it will cost more to buy than the club with debts.
The £1 thing is just as misleading as the sisu have put in gazillions.
The debt would need to be addressed in one way or another, else they will just keep getting rejected.
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Yep I understand that
Paxman II
Well-Known Member
So you are suggesting Hoffman and crew buy only the assets? The debt ridden side of the 'business' can be legally just dismissed, no questions asked. Oh that's alright then. How much to settle your investors Joy? And can I give you the cash somewhere down the line from players sales and money from promotions and the like? can't give you a definitive answer when that will be, you're just have to trust we will invest and make the club a success at some point. Is that alright with you?
Seriously?
Seriously?
better days
Well-Known Member
Very clear explanation. Thanks
I suspect that the owners may have realised that it may now be the least worst time to cut their losses
But if that's the case then there are other parties who would surely offer a better deal than the current consortium
And without all the strings
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So no difference to what's happening now then? Except that is that they might actually get something in a few years time
mark82
Super Moderator
The difference is that they are currently in control of that destiny.
To be fair, the first offer was ridiculous. The second offer looked a little better. Hopefully they can get to a position that is acceptable to both but I highly doubt it, particularly as there is much bad blood between the parties involved.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
In control of a downward spiral? Whereas the potential for the club to go forward, with no investment from them with a potential for a return?
mark82
Super Moderator
You are looking at it from your view though. See it through their eyes and you trust yourself to turn it round. At the end of the day, these people have had success in business before and have massive ego's, so will back themselves to get a return whether we think they are right or wrong. They won't currently see this as a downward spiral as they have moved the club to a position where it is not making a loss. This for them is making things better. The relegation doesn't help them though, so now is hopefully a good time to strike with a decent offer. They over value the club though (which is there right as owners) so will need a good offer.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
If Wasps play hardball over a new deal at the Ricoh, and the club ends up at Northampton or elsewhere then SISU take a financial hit as crowds will be low, but in that case Wasps take a PR hammering and lose business too. Timmy stated publicly that he believed Wasps would sign a short term deal but that remains to be seen.
In the mix now is the offer for the club which I'm sure the EFL have been made aware allows the club to remain in Coventry. I think this might modify their attitude but I do not think they will try to force SISU to sell as they'll end up in court if they do.
What of the next season, if it is a roaring success then SISU will want to be selling as the club is promoted. There are financial incentives there, but the real situation will not be clear till Feb/March next year.
Another issue is transfers, I'm sure SISU will want to sell players in the summer, they have to do some business to balance the books but they also may look at selling as many assets as they can then strike a deal with Hoffman, or at least find the market value of players on the books and include them in the price they want.
Many issues are in play.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Structures are here
Sky Blue Trust - CCFC Company and Group Structures
Otium which trades as CCFC owe ARVO 12.4 in loans and interest. In addition to the ownership ordinary voting shares there are preference shares issued in Otium totalling 65m which are owned by ARVO 15m and SBS& L 50m (in round figures) - these shares are in reality clever accounting and worthless
SBS&L owes its investors 28m. (Otium does not owe SBS&L £28m which is a problem for SISU)
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
not suggesting it, its what Hoffman has said he was bidding for the assets less football liabilities. Obviously as explained in previous thread it is not what SISU are looking for as you point out. Hence why there looks to be a big gap between the parties.
I do not see the current structure of bids leading to success to be honest
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Isn't this a clue that the saleable vehicle is Otium?
With (say)7% interest what would ARVO loans come in at? I'm thinking that a sale is on if someone pays 6-7% on top of ARVO loans.