General Election (66 Viewers)

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Hence his lacklustre performance in the campaign.

Well if you really believe that he is not a leader of anything is he? He either stands by the courage of his convictions or he passionately backs the party line. He doesn't just lie down and hope it all goes away

He simply isn't a leader. He is incapable of leadership. You have pretty much acknowledged that.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Well if you really believe that he is not a leader of anything is he? He either stands by the courage of his convictions or he passionately backs the party line. He doesn't just lie down and hope it all goes away

He simply isn't a leader. He is incapable of leadership. You have pretty much acknowledged that.

I agree that he isn't a leader, but he is still morally above the tories. But that doesn't count in the real world,
 

lifeskyblue

Well-Known Member
I will be voting for the Britain I want my grandchildren to grow up in and my children to grow old in. I won't be voting on one line repeated slogans or on 'leaders' afraid to debate on the hustings with their rivals.


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Sick Boy

Super Moderator
Well if you really believe that he is not a leader of anything is he? He either stands by the courage of his convictions or he passionately backs the party line. He doesn't just lie down and hope it all goes away

He simply isn't a leader. He is incapable of leadership. You have pretty much acknowledged that.

I've never said that he is a great leader?He is just as bad as May though who is an opportunist and utterly vacuous.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I agree that he isn't a leader, but he is still morally above the tories. But that doesn't count in the real world,

Well if you believe a moral person openly supports terrorist thugs who drag innocent women from their beds in front of their screaming children as they are informers and blows their brains across an empty Irish beach then yes by your definition he clearly is
 

Sick Boy

Super Moderator
It's actually about time all politicians become honest about the NHS and admit a completely public funded organisation is impossible to sustain.

Both parties prop it up and neither are honest enough to admit a state funded system for all is utopia

It's pathetic that no one will admit this and work to alternate solutions.

It's not impossible at all, it just requeries the will to make it work.
 

martcov

Well-Known Member
Well if you believe a moral person openly supports terrorist thugs who drag innocent women from their beds in front of their screaming children as they are informers and blows their brains across an empty Irish beach then yes by your definition he clearly is

Well I agree on that- that is why he is tainted. But, we were talking about now and his policies for this election. At present he is the better bet.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
Like Mr Corbyn and Europe you mean?
that's true. But then again May was pro Europe but changed her tune, (well kept quiet and slipped in under the radar while everyone else was stabbing each other in the back), to take control of the tories.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
It's not impossible at all, it just requeries the will to make it work.

Yes it's utterly and completely impossible with an increased aged population and the fact it's long long gone adrift of its initial intent.
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
It's actually about time all politicians become honest about the NHS and admit a completely public funded organisation is impossible to sustain.

Both parties prop it up and neither are honest enough to admit a state funded system for all is utopia

It's pathetic that no one will admit this and work to alternate solutions.

there's plenty of money sloshing around to fund the NHS.
Just depends on whether you'd rather spend it on illegal and unnecessary wars or go to the trouble of collecting the proper taxes from your corporate mates, (new labour were just as, if not more culpable).
 

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
Well if you believe a moral person openly supports terrorist thugs who drag innocent women from their beds in front of their screaming children as they are informers and blows their brains across an empty Irish beach then yes by your definition he clearly is

a moral person wouldn't go within a mile of the Saudi regime either.
Theresa-May-006.jpg
 

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
Yes it's utterly and completely impossible with an increased aged population and the fact it's long long gone adrift of its initial intent.
So whats the answer? Have the eldery put down? Refuse them treatment? Get them to pay via medical insurance (which they can't because they don't work)?

The fact of the matter is that someone has to pay and inevitably it will be the working public - either diretly through taxes or indirectly through private insurance. I'd rather the former as those who can't afford to have treatment get it regardless and any surplus goes back into the system, rather than lining the pockets of the fat cats running the private schemes. They want to make money from the sick and needy, fine - run a private BUPA type scheme and cream the dosh of those who can afford to pay the extra...but leave the common man alone.

Who has the most to gain from a NHS not run by the government, becuase it sure as fuck isn't the people who are sick.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Yes it's utterly and completely impossible with an increased aged population and the fact it's long long gone adrift of its initial intent.

Every modern nation has one kind of single payer healthcare system or another, except for the USA, who have the worst health outcomes in this group and a much less cost effective system to boot. Whether the state should go on running hospitals directly is a case for debate, but the arguments in favour of a free-at-the-point-of-use are overwhelming.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
You're right and I agree.

However, it's his ideas and policies that stop him getting support.

The "we'll do this, and we'll do that" is easily dismantled with the question; "Where's that money coming from?"

Yet nobody ever asks that question of the Conservative party. Has anyone questioned where this money for above inflation military expenditure is coming from? Where the money for raising the tax-free threshold came from? Of course not. The narrative is that they know what they're doing, so don't question it.

So people end up voting against policies they support in favour of ones that will fuck them over. They would rather allow crap ideas to pass than find ways to make good ones work, and vilify the man proposing them for good measure.
 

ccfc92

Well-Known Member
Isn't it half and half? So about half let a private company do it like at the Ricoh and tesco for example and others do it themselves. Even staff have to pay for their own parking.

Oh okay. Basically my point was, labour want to scrap car parking charges, which is great for patients and families etc.

But the massive revenue loss to an under pressure NHS, not a good idea really is it?
 
So people end up voting against policies they support in favour of ones that will fuck them over.

You keep making this point, you fail to point out that popular opinion supports many other things: capital punishment, stopping migration, tougher benefit sanctions, longer prison sentences, stopping foreign aid. All totally at odds with what the Labour party are offering.

People don't think in terms of left and right in the real world, people like you and the current Labour party do.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
You keep making this point, you fail to point out that popular opinion supports many other things: capital punishment, stopping migration, tougher benefit sanctions, longer prison sentences, stopping foreign aid. All totally at odds with what the Labour party are offering.

People don't think in terms of left and right in the real world, people like you and the current Labour party do.

I think in terms of policies that will benefit people. For what it's worth, the Conservatives have hopelessly failed on their immigration targets, and continue to pledge a fixed % of spending to foreign aid, but they never seem to draw your criticism. Investing in infrastructure and education will bring a tangible benefit to millions. Investing in a bloated military to support wars in lands which have nothing to do with us, less so.

My point is that policies are on the table which people like, and they are choosing to vote for ones which they don't. Theresa May continues to face no scrutiny for anything, and everything she proposes is fantastic. Then we wonder why we get scenes like this:

 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
Oh okay. Basically my point was, labour want to scrap car parking charges, which is great for patients and families etc.

But the massive revenue loss to an under pressure NHS, not a good idea really is it?
That loss is covered by a tax on private healthcare.
 
What data are you basing that on? In any case they aren't Conservative policies either.

I would find you the link but I'm pissed and was just looking through this as I haven't been on in ages. I will tomorrow.

The point wasn't to support the Tory party. I know there isn't a (serious) political party suggesting we start hanging people again. The point I was making was it's the package people vote for. Of course you can cherry pick policies which are popular, nationalising the railways as an example. People vote for a party on far more than one issue however.
 

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
Oh okay. Basically my point was, labour want to scrap car parking charges, which is great for patients and families etc.

But the massive revenue loss to an under pressure NHS, not a good idea really is it?

Well true but the money would be found a different way but it's whether you believe labour in their sums and then their methods to achieve this. I personally don't. As you say it sounds great for us patients and families to get free parking at nhs hospitals but then when your tax goes up in other areas it might not look so great.

I think Corbyn will be gone after June 8th personally and then maybe they can start to have a real sit down and come together to plan for the next general election. Corbyns biggest problem is his own mps and party have turned against him ages ago with failed coups and second leadership elections. How are voters meant to believe him when his own party in large sections don't. Call May what you will and she has faults but the mps back her and the party manifesto. The time to judge is whether she delivers on them? As let's face she is going to win by a landslide.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
Well true but the money would be found a different way but it's whether you believe labour in their sums and then their methods to achieve this. I personally don't. As you say it sounds great for us patients and families to get free parking at nhs hospitals but then when your tax goes up in other areas it might not look so great.

I think Corbyn will be gone after June 8th personally and then maybe they can start to have a real sit down and come together to plan for the next general election. Corbyns biggest problem is his own mps and party have turned against him ages ago with failed coups and second leadership elections. How are voters meant to believe him when his own party in large sections don't. Call May what you will and she has faults but the mps back her and the party manifesto. The time to judge is whether she delivers on them? As let's face she is going to win by a landslide.

Can she deliver crap policies and vague platitudes? 'Hell yes' she can. It's not like they have form for missing targets and breaking manifesto commitments, this is the perfect party led by Mrs Perfect.
 

Kingokings204

Well-Known Member
Can she deliver crap policies and vague platitudes? 'Hell yes' she can. It's not like they have form for missing targets and breaking manifesto commitments, this is the perfect party led by Mrs Perfect.

Oh I quite agree and that's why I said in 5 years you can vote against them again if you're not happy.
 

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member

Captain Dart

Well-Known Member
And Gordon's promises?

THE ECONOMY

Mr Brown sees his stewardship of Britain through the worst recession in living memory as one his greatest electoral strengths. In its 2010 manifesto, Labour sets out its plan to halve the deficit by 2014, introduce a new global levy on banks and create more than one million high-skilled jobs.

Five years ago, at the height of the boom, there was of course no mention of the impending global storm – let alone any plans to nationalise British banks.

There was, however, a declaration that Britain would march “forward to increased prosperity, not back to boom and bust”. The reality is that the UK now produces less per head of population than it did five years ago.

Under Tony Blair in 2005 Labour promised to maintain Mr Brown’s prized fiscal rules – borrowing only to invest and keeping net debt stable. Three years later, as Alistair Darling, the Chancellor, battled the forces of financial hell, he was forced to admit he would have to abandon the fiscal rules.

Meanwhile, net debt is soaring – and could hit £1.4 trillion over the next five years according to the government’s own figures.

In 2005 Labour stated that it would “maintain [the] inflation target at two per cent. Last month it was 3.9 per cent.

The party also pledged to eliminate youth unemployment – it is currently running at more than 920,000 among 16-24 year olds

TAX

In the run up to the 1997 election, Mr Brown famously pledged not to increase the base rate or the top rate of income tax for the lifetime of the forthcoming parliament. He did so again in 2001 – and kept the promise both times (although stealthily increasing other taxes to such an extent that Mr Blair’s original claim that New Labour would not put up taxes “at all” rang hollow).

In 2005 the party made the same pledge on income tax – aiming to underpin its third successive victory. However, in 2008 Mr Darling announced a new 45p top rate of tax for those on £150,000, putting this up to 50p in 2009. The new tax rate came into force this month.

Conservatives, moreover, say Labour’s plans for a National Insurance rise from next year (which they would partly block if elected) is a “tax on jobs” and a world away from Labour’s 2005 declaration: “We want a tax regime that supports British business”.

Council tax, which Labour said it was “committed to reform”, and pledged to keep “under control” in 2005, has gone on rising with plans for a property revaluation in England kicked into the long grass.

TRANSPORT

In June 1997, at the start of New Labour’s years in power, John Prescott, the former deputy prime minister, rashly declared: “I will have failed if in five years time there are not ... far fewer journeys by car.” By June 2002, car traffic was up by seven per cent.

Mr Prescott’s comments were not strictly a manifesto pledge – but they are symptomatic of the failure of successive Labour transport secretaries to get to grips with this issue.

In 2005 Labour promised to examine a new high-speed North-South rail link. Plans for the link were published this year – but only from London to Birmingham. Meanwhile, the pledge for major new funding boosts to expand capacity on the M25, the M1 and M6 was formally scrapped by Geoff Hoon last year.

The last manifesto also floated the idea of extending the M6 toll road – but this has not happened.

EDUCATION

Mr Blair began his final term of office with a renewed zeal for major reform of the public services – with education top of his list.

However, literacy and numeracy targets for 11-year-olds, which the 2005 manifesto promised would be met, have not been hit. Nor do all children receive two hours of PE or sport per week, which the document pledged they would do by this year.

In 2005 Labour promised a “nationwide week-long summer residential programme for school students”. Nothing like this has been introduced.

The party also promised a “bigger, better” higher education system with increased public spending. However, about half of Britain’s universities will have their budgets cut this year as the sector becomes one of the first big victims of government savings.

In 2005 Labour’s “aim” was for 50 per cent of young people to go on to higher education by this year – by 2008 the figure was only 39.8 per cent – a rise of 0.6 percentage points since 2000.

HEALTH

The 2010 manifesto promises patients a maximum 18 weeks’ wait for treatment. Laudable – until you remember that the same promise was made in the party’s 2005 manifesto and that for one in 10 patients this target has not been met.

Another great Blair idea – patient choice – saw a pledge that by 2009 all women would be able to choose where they had their baby as well as what sort of pain relief. However, the National Childbirth Trust suggests this is not true for 95 per cent of women.

Neither has Labour been able to do much to meet its plan to reduce health inequalities between rich and poor. 2010 targets in this area for both life expectancy and infant mortality are set to be missed.

Labour’s plan for “comprehensive” out-of-hours service by GPs sounded good – until 90 per cent took up a contract to opt out of such provision.

Even a relatively minor, achievable-sounding pledge, such as the 2005 promise to make fruit and vegetables part of every school meal, has not been met.

CRIME

More officers on the beat – tough action on problem families – a crackdown on anti-social behaviour. The pledges in Labour’s 2010 manifesto would surely be backed by any political party in any democracy.

So would their predecessors from 2005, however, which included a pledge for “historically high numbers of police officers”. Unfortunately, according to MPs, only four out of 43 police forces in England and Wales plan to maintain current staffing levels.

By 2007, Labour said, every offender would be “supervised after release.” Currently those who spend less than a year in jail are not supervised.

Labour also pledged in 2005 to introduce a “non-emergency” telephone service to report crimes which was duly launched the following year using the 101 number – only to lose direct Home Office funding in 2007.

An electronic borders system to track visitors to the UK was promised by 2010 – but will not be fully on-stream until 2014.

FOREIGN AND DEFENCE

In one of the most blatant examples of broken promises, Labour pledged in 2005 to put the European Union Constitution to a referendum in Britain. However, two years later the government forced through the Lisbon Treaty – substantially the same as the Constitution – without a public vote

When UK forces are committed, Labour said in 2005, they will “have the investment, training and strategy they need”. A range of senior military figures has disagreed with Government claims that this is the case, as well as Sir Kevin Tebbit, former permanent secretary to the Ministry of Defence.
 

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