General Election (23 Viewers)
- Thread starter Liquid Gold
- Start date
SkyblueBazza
Well-Known Member
Well, I mean for example, that maybe if you were unfortunate enough to require extremely expensive healthcare & thereby survive solely on the welfare state (I.E. very little)...at least you will be happy in the knowledge that the foxes are having a ball!
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How many of the three categories want to leave or would vote leave?
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
It's irrelevant we have voted to leave and all the yougov poll shows that people in the main have accepted the result which I believe is positive.
Listening to the debate on LBC about these results only 1 in 5 wants the referendum result over turned and haven't accepted the result.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I would say if people realise. The ruling elite seem to be able to get away with pretty much anything and people either just accept it or aren't aware it's even going on.
Liquid Gold
Well-Known Member
Yep. It will be the next scapegoat. No such thing as a welfare state so can't blame 'scroungers'. Immigration reduced as we have no freedom of movement. It will be something like the 'over educated' who are better qualified than accepting the cleaning toilet for minimum wage jobs that are on offer.
We have to accept the result of the referendum. However...... we don't know exactly what it means. There may well be a "rejoin" campaign if this all goes pear shape and people think they are worse off. We had a referendum when we joined and it was a yes vote... over 40 years later it is a no vote to the EU. It can swing back the other way. It is very early days. Nothing, apart from the fall in the pound and the growth of uncertainty, has really happened yet.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Conned into leaving by a rich elite?
It was the rich and powerful elite, ranging from CEOs of huge corporations to Investment Banks and to usual army of precious celebrity luvvies who tried to con and bully voters into REMAINING!
Con? What con? It was a straight forward question given a straight forward answer.
The con, the great deceit at the heart of the Brexit debate, is this idea that it will lead to economic ruin. It's hysterical and completely baseless.
The EU isn't working - youth unemployment rates of 45%+ in some member states provide ample evidence of that. The EU becomes less competitive year on year. It is a dinosaur - top heavy, bureaucratic, elitist, increasingly protectionist and fundamentally undemocratic. The direction of travel throughout the rest of the world is in the opposite one. You don't ever see people question why Japan and South Korea don't form political union and pool sovereignty, likewise Australia and New Zealand (I can't recall anyone labelling New Zealand as 'Austrophobic' because it isn't seeking political union).
Close co-operation on a regional basis makes sense, and that will continue in a number of areas. However, the EU is practically immobile when it comes to the economy - the modern world dictates that you need to be agile and nimble and react to global events quickly. It takes the EU an age to do anything because there are so many conflicting interests which often lead to discord rather than harmony - which leads to inaction.
There are risks associated with Brexit, but there are opportunities too, big opportunities to negotiate bilateral trade deals, something which we cannot do presently. The EU is increasingly aggressive in its dealings with China, implementing a range of import duties, minimum import pricing and anti-dumping levies that will (and have) resulted in a tit-for-tat response from China. I am glad we are free of that, not least because Britain rarely voted in favour of these measures.
Like it or not, a healthy trading relationship with China and India is important, and the fact Chinese investment in the UK is so high is evidence of the open and internationalist instincts we have in this country and once we are free of the EU shackles, I think the trade deals with follow quickly, particularly China and our Commonwealth partners. We don't even have a free trade deal with Australia, which given our historic ties is a crime really. We are now free to right that wrong.
For some, they view the whole thing in very simplistic terms. They have convinced themselves that those who voted leave did so because they hate Johnny Foreigner and want to retreat from the world. Perhaps a few did, but I certainly didn't. Immigration is a positive thing and it will continue. Uncontrolled immigration can create pressure points and stress on services, few people deny that. I am confident we will continue to have an open (as possible) immigration policy that is fair, humane but also sensible (something we had long before the EU and freedom of movement within it).
The decision to leave the EU was a bold, brave, but also sensible. They'll be some tough decisions and it won't be plain sailing - but that will be during the exit process. Beyond that I don't think we'll look back.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Fantastic post.
Youth unemployment varies in the EU as in Britain. 28% in the North East of England, 8,2% in Coventry. 21% on average in the EU. Germany's is half that of Britain's.
Japan and Southe Korea are on different land masses and South Korea was a badly treated colony of Japan. Australia is a continent- and already one united political entity without borders.
The EU has trade deals with 150 countries negotiated from a position of strength by experienced negotiators. Even Trump complimented the negotiators - he thought they were Germany's own negotiators.
A healthy trade deal between the EU and China and India already exists. It is no surprise that the EU doesn't like dumping. If you think that Britain will benefit from not reacting to such things as dumping, then fair play to you.
India has already said that it doesn't want an Empire.2 situation, and I doubt whether we will be getting many "good deals" from other Commonwealth partners.
A lot of brexiteers don't like foreigners and seem to blame things like traffic jams and lack of cheap housing on them whilst forgetting poor government policies.
Bold and brave? The decision was hardly bold and brave, but there were a variety of factors involved in the decisions of various groups of people. Whether or not it was sensible is hard to say. I would class it as reckless and largely based on emotion more than known facts. It could still work out well, but I do agree that there will some bad withdrawal effects either way.
I would have opted for a stronger Europe rather than having to try and negotiate new trade deals with lots of countries from a weak bargaining position. Everyone knows we are an exporting country and need trade deals to survive.
Well you must be relieved that rich and elite lost then. Soon the people's party will be ruling over the UK with a massive majority and pumping money into the NHS, reducing defence spending, building affordable housing and creating a more equal society whilst refusing to sell arms to undemocratic theocracies. That will show the rich and powerful elite and CEOs!!!
Just not quite true is it. The Eurozone is growing faster than the US economy with Spain leading the way of the resurgent countries. The Euro is gaining in strength as people are seeing through the populists like Trump and - in Europe turning back to Merkel as the leader of the Western world. 3 state elections in a row backing Merkel's party.
France is now looking with Germany to reform the EU and take it forward. We will see who is more sensible, Merkel and Macron at the forefront of the EU, or the Brexiteers.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
You sound very confused.
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
Yes great post The Ferret. Best one on the subject for a long while.
Er no.... I was being sarcastic. You don't have an excuse.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Further debasing of British politics. The author should probaby learn to spell dumb before accusing others of being so.
You make some valid points, but also a few that are less valid :happy:. I don't mind debating issues sensibly and arguing the points, what frustrates me, and the reason I rarely get involved in these discussions, is that the debate is often skewed by people who focus on the negative reasons for the leave vote and who have somehow convinced themselves they are a more well-rounded and morally superior individual because they have bought in to some wishy-washy 'better together' notion which is largely based on emotion rather than analysis of the facts. I regard myself as pro-European but anti-European Union, and see no contradiction in that. The Leave campaign was made up from a number of groups - moderates including a Lib Dem Leave, Labour Leave and also those on the extremes (both left and right), all with differing motivations and reasoning. It was hardly just White Van Man with a copy of the Daily Express under his arm as some would have you believe.
On the points you raised - I don't buy the comment about Australia in the context of the point I was making - which there is no appetite to replicate the EU model anywhere else in the world; because the model is outdated and often results in inertia. I'm not sure the fact that Australia is continent sized is of much relevance.
Trade deals have been completed, but whether they are 'good' is open to debate. The EU-Australia deal has rumbled on for years, and has encountered countless delays, most recently because of lobbying by Italian tomato farmers. The Canada deal was completed, but again was fraught with delays and was nearly scuppered by a vote to veto it by a small regional government in Belgium. Again, the point about vested interests and the sheer number of stakeholders that you need to get on side to complete a deal makes the EU incredibly cumbersome and makes something that is already incredibly complex nigh on impossible.
There is of course a case to caution against Chinese dumping, but these measures are often ill thought out and not justified. Anti-dumping levies on Chinese solar panels have held back the deployment of solar installations and were almost universally unpopular in the renewable energy sector and cost jobs - they were only introduced because of the lobbying of one French solar panel manufacturer. That isn't healthy.
We'll do a deal with Australia relatively quickly I believe, the amount trade in services between the two countries in such that to not do so would make no sense at all.
We'll see, there are of course unknowns and risks. The prophecies of doom from some are bordering on the hysterical though.
Are you genuinely convinced by JC? Accept completely your party allegiances, but surely you recognise that much of what he is proposing is Alice in Wonderland stuff?
Watching the manifesto launch, it struck me that this was the agenda of a party that is acutely aware of the fact that it has no prospect of being elected whatsoever. The 6th form economics were almost embarrassing. What next, free hover boards for school children and government issued fish and chips every Friday?
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I've already expressed my opinion of him on here. May is no better than him though and is a vile and hypocritical, u-turning opportunist. Politics is becoming more and more debased in general in the UK.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
To be fair, there will be massive positives, including the extra £350M a week for the NHS and the impending increases in wages and cheaper food people will soon be enjoying.
You're just taking a snap-shot though. I'm talking about the long term trend. It is cyclical to a point, but the long term trend isn't great. Germany continues to be strong of course, but many nations within the EU are struggling. It isn't black and white, nobody is saying that it is. The concern is that the more Europe integrates, the less able individual nations are to react to economic challenges that arise in a way that best suits their needs (take Greece), and that just generates dissent and resentment. We were somewhat shielded form that given we are not part of the Eurozone, but there will be another downturn at some point in the future, and you wonder if that is when the EU will begin to unravel. Do the German pubic have the stomach for another raft of bailouts?
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Well they want the vote for 16 year olds but object to 'child' soldiers under 18.
Anyone with half a brain realises they want 16 year olds to vote because they are less likely to have a considered rational view and are more likely go with a hare brained scheme that captures their imagination or take an electoral bribe thinking they won't have to pay for it in the long run.
You described May as 'vile' and then complain about politics becoming more debased. Not sure that works.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Fair enough, she is a u-turning hypocrite and belongs in the 1950s.
Yeah, but apart from that you really like her :happy:
Not sure which is worse, May being stuck in the 50s or Corbyn in the 70s.
I'll be honest, I don't mind May. I think she is a capable politician. Given that we can be pretty certain we'll have a Conservative government for the next 5 years, I'd rather her than some of the others.
Corbyn is well meaning and admirably true to his beliefs, but mad as a box of frogs and not fit for office. A Labour Party lead by someone like Chuka Ummuna is a different beast altogether.
The country needs a strong opposition, and it doesn't have one currently. That isn't healthy.
Captain Dart
Well-Known Member
Worth a look, these women are Labours shadow Home and Foreign Secretaries.
No way!
No way!
Kingokings204
Well-Known Member
Worth noting the labor manifesto was generally well received except no body knows how they are going to pay for all the nice stuff they are proposing. Not even their own shadow chancellor. (The most dangerous man in polictics)
It's almost as if labour have said we can't win this election let's just say any thing really good to not make it a complete drubbing.
On a side note they want to pay for some stuff by charging the rich business and people more which sounds great in theory except if they did do that all the rich businesses and jobs would sod off to Switzerland overnight. So actually less tax paid and less jobs to be had.
It's almost as if labour have said we can't win this election let's just say any thing really good to not make it a complete drubbing.
On a side note they want to pay for some stuff by charging the rich business and people more which sounds great in theory except if they did do that all the rich businesses and jobs would sod off to Switzerland overnight. So actually less tax paid and less jobs to be had.
oakey
Well-Known Member
My real problem with the referendum was not being given any clue what Leave would mean.
I think I was genuinely open to an argument for leaving the EU, based on a "this is what a Leave vote would mean."
In other words I wanted to know answers to questions like, will we be in the single market? Will we be in or out of the customs union? Ok you know all the issues. What I couldn't get my head round was being asked to swallow the,
"That will all be negotiated, it will all be fine" etc. How can people vote for a leap in the dark? How can people vote for, who do you want as the negotiator May or Corbyn?
Stating the obvious, I know, but how the hell do the Tories get away with a leap in the dark, trust us, we have a better leader than them? Policy.
They got us into this mess so they can get us out of it.
It may turn out fine in the end but we have a decade of uncertainty, division and stagnation to go through first.
I hope it's worth it.
I think I was genuinely open to an argument for leaving the EU, based on a "this is what a Leave vote would mean."
In other words I wanted to know answers to questions like, will we be in the single market? Will we be in or out of the customs union? Ok you know all the issues. What I couldn't get my head round was being asked to swallow the,
"That will all be negotiated, it will all be fine" etc. How can people vote for a leap in the dark? How can people vote for, who do you want as the negotiator May or Corbyn?
Stating the obvious, I know, but how the hell do the Tories get away with a leap in the dark, trust us, we have a better leader than them? Policy.
They got us into this mess so they can get us out of it.
It may turn out fine in the end but we have a decade of uncertainty, division and stagnation to go through first.
I hope it's worth it.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It really doesn't matter what they propose does it, you're never going to vote for them. It's almost as if Labour have looked at what people want, and what would be best for the average Joe, and have put it in a manifesto, while the Tories have looked at what will benefit their donors.
Full steam ahead for Austerity 2.0 and the complete dismantling of the public sector by 2022. Vote for making crap ideas pass, rather than making good ideas work.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Yes Ferret much better to vote for a good old shafting instead. Doesn't matter that the Conservatives miss their own targets by miles and break manifesto commitments, does it?
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
so taxing the top earners to fund public services is 6th form economics but diverting money from public services to the top earners is sound financial stewardship?
The labour manifesto is Alice in wonderland stuff but we can trust the tories even though they have failed in almost every major pledge they made at the last election?
You're right we need a strong opposition, and I can see why the current labour shadow cabinet isn't perceived as such.
But we also need capable government and this government is far, far from capable.