General Election (75 Viewers)

[fernandopartridge]

IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah.

He hasn't condemned any of them. Why?

I'm not saying he is building rockets for them, but it's hardly reassuring or encouraging to vote for someone who appears like this, or acts as if he doesn't love his country very much.

He condemned all terrorist acts.

 

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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

He condemned all terrorist acts.

He said 'all bombing is bad', before refusing to answer a pretty straight question which was 'do you condemn the IRA'.

It isn't the first time either, so say what you want, people are not, and will not become comfortable with it.

 

[clint van damme]

Ok I will vote Tory because.
1. Corbyn and McDonnell and abbot support terrorist organisations
2.Labour cannot run an economy look at history
3.I hate left wing politics basically and what it stands for.

so you support a party who has an ex IRA member as a sitting councillor.
You think the current tory government are running the economy better than the last labour government even though they've increased borrowing - sound logic there.

 

[Kingokings204]

Did we watch the same programme? Or did you watch the CCHQ approved highlights?

I'm sure you think it was a fair audience. I thought the BBC was right wing?

 

[Kingokings204]

He condemned all terrorist acts.

Phew.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

This is the staple response I am seeing from Labour voters when they are called out.

They cannot defend Corbyn, or a lot of the front bench, they just simply say 'look at the Tories'.

The fact is, Labour are bloody awful. The Tories are also bloody awful, and so are the Lib Dems.

How anyone can passionately get behind any of them is beyond me.

I praised the manifesto then and I have done so many, many times. It is full of positions which are aimed at benefitting the majority and which have popular support according to any poll done on the matter. What makes the difference is people like Grendel who think that Corbyn is some demonic entity sent to replace the Queen with Gerry Adams.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Phew.

OK then, lets hear the Tory record on the IRA. I'm all ears.

 

[clint van damme]

IRA, Hamas, Hezbollah.

He hasn't condemned any of them. Why?

I'm not saying he is building rockets for them, but it's hardly reassuring or encouraging to vote for someone who appears like this, or acts as if he doesn't love his country very much.

why the fuck, in the week before a UK general election, are you worried about Hamas and Hezbollah for fucks sake?
And if you're so worried about the IRA shouldn't you be more worried that ex IRA member Maria Gatland is a tory councillor.

Fuck it, I'm joining the tory party, you can literally do what the fuck you want and no one questions it!!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

3. Left wing politics is naive and weak when it comes to a lot of things. It is the notion that everything in the world is equal. I wish it was, but it isn't, and thinking that way just gets you fucked in the ass. I don't think most people here are talking about economic policies actually, it's more the cultural ones. As much as I hate to say it, people are on edge due to events like the Manchester attack and don't think many believe he is strong enough or proactive enough to do anything about it. They believe he is more likely to make it worse.

Except it isn't is it. Social democracy is about a balanced role of state and the free market, and about providing equality of opportunity. If someone gets rich in such a system, good for them. All a progressive argues for is for the deck to be a little less stacked. Right wing economics doesn't work and has led to economic disaster on at least 2 separate occasions. Right wing social attitudes seem good to some until they apply the standards to themselves. If we listened to right wingers in the 60s, being gay would still be a crime. If we listened to them in the 1800s, we would still have slavery.

Progressivism isn't about everything being equal, it's about looking at what empirically works and trying to make decisions informed by evidence. Taking the evidence that building more grammar schools would widen and entrench inequality in Britain, I don't think any more should be built, but it is a Tory manifesto pledge. Other evidence shows that we are subsidising low wages through in work benefits, so there is a Labour proposal to raise the minimum wage and pass the cost from the taxpayer to the employer. There is even evidence in America that shows it would be cheaper to put every homeless person in a home than pay for the costs attached to homelessness.

But no, I'm the naïve one.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I praised the manifesto then and I have done so many, many times. It is full of positions which are aimed at benefitting the majority and which have popular support according to any poll done on the matter. What makes the difference is people like Grendel who think that Corbyn is some demonic entity sent to replace the Queen with Gerry Adams.

That's the problem. Most of the Labour policies trump the Conservative ones, but people are not prepared to vote for Corbyn.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

why the fuck, in the week before a UK general election, are you worried about Hamas and Hezbollah for fucks sake?
And if you're so worried about the IRA shouldn't you be more worried that ex IRA member Maria Gatland is a tory councillor.

Fuck it, I'm joining the tory party, you can literally do what the fuck you want and no one questions it!!

Maybe because I don't want someone in charge of my country who I don't feel has much love for it.

No one has been able to prove me otherwise.

I am not saying the Tories are fine either, but this forum is like a Labour stronghold at the moment, so as a neutral I think I have my rights to challenge them.

 

[lifeskyblue]

How anyone can support the May with her record of u-turns, levels of borrowing, record in schools and the NHS (Jeremy Hunt even makes Diane Abbott look like an asset) coupled with her responsibility and promises as Home Secretary and prime minister on immigration is beyond me. As for the 'strong and stable' argument as we go into brexit who do we have but Boris the Buffoon leading on our negotiations. If you are to support the Tories then leadership, economic competence and trust cannot be the arguments you use.
I'm not saying Corbyn or Farron are the answer but at least on their record they haven't got the repeated fails, lies or broken promises. The Tories in this campaign are the only party to do a u-turn (or should that be 'tell a lie') about a flagship policy even before the ink has dried. To cap or not to cap...that was the question. First we had one definitive answer now we have another.
Have a listen if you haven't already





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[Liquid Gold]

That's the problem. Most of the Labour policies trump the Conservative ones, but people are not prepared to vote for Corbyn.

Do these people live in North Islington? If not they're not voting for Corbyn and should probably educate themselves about the UK parliamentary system of government.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That's the problem. Most of the Labour policies trump the Conservative ones, but people are not prepared to vote for Corbyn.

'I love your ideas, but you're a bit kooky and have stubble, so I'm going to vote for a shafting by this articulate lady over there'

Team Tory can't believe it's luck at having such a gullible electorate.

 

[clint van damme]

Maybe because I don't want someone in charge of my country who I don't feel has much love for it.

No one has been able to prove me otherwise.

I am not saying the Tories are fine either, but this forum is like a Labour stronghold at the moment, so as a neutral I think I have my rights to challenge them.

what have Hamas and Hezbollah got to do with someones love for the UK?

To be honest, I prefer a politician who feels it's their duty to serve the electorate, by default, they will serve the majority of this countries population better than someone who is beholden to faceless international corporations or the Saudis and by default, that makes them more patriotic.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Do these people live in North Islington? If not they're not voting for Corbyn and should probably educate themselves about the UK parliamentary system of government.

It is interesting that someone who hates Britain so much and wants British people murdered returns enormous majorities at every general election in his constituency.

 

[Kingokings204]

OK then, lets hear the Tory record on the IRA. I'm all ears.

What didn't Earlsdon say? Let's blame it quick on the tories. Looks like he was right.

 

[clint van damme]

'I love your ideas, but you're a bit kooky and have stubble, so I'm going to vote for a shafting by this articulate lady over there'

Team Tory can't believe it's luck at having such a gullible electorate.

their was a picture on twitter the other day of two foxes reading a newspaper which had the headline tories to bring back fox hunting, and one fox was saying to the other, I'm still voting for them.
Pretty much sums things up.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Except it isn't is it. Social democracy is about a balanced role of state and the free market, and about providing equality of opportunity. If someone gets rich in such a system, good for them. All a progressive argues for is for the deck to be a little less stacked. Right wing economics doesn't work and has led to economic disaster on at least 2 separate occasions. Right wing social attitudes seem good to some until they apply the standards to themselves. If we listened to right wingers in the 60s, being gay would still be a crime. If we listened to them in the 1800s, we would still have slavery.

Progressivism isn't about everything being equal, it's about looking at what empirically works and trying to make decisions informed by evidence. Taking the evidence that building more grammar schools would widen and entrench inequality in Britain, I don't think any more should be built, but it is a Tory manifesto pledge. Other evidence shows that we are subsidising low wages through in work benefits, so there is a Labour proposal to raise the minimum wage and pass the cost from the taxpayer to the employer. There is even evidence in America that shows it would be cheaper to put every homeless person in a home than pay for the costs attached to homelessness.

But no, I'm the naïve one.

Yes, you are.

I have said several times, it is not the economic side of things that people question the left wing on, it is the social aspects.

The principles are often naive and stupid.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It is interesting that someone who hates Britain so much and wants British people murdered returns enormous majorities at every general election in his constituency.

He loves Britain enough to say what he'd do to improve it, in a positive way.

 

[clint van damme]

What didn't Earlsdon say? Let's blame it quick on the tories. Looks like he was right.

for the third time, the tories have an ex IRA member as a councillor, why are people ignoring this when discussing Corbyn and the IRA?

 

[Liquid Gold]

Yes, you are.

I have said several times, it is not the economic side of things that people question the left wing on, it is the social aspects.

The principles are often naive and stupid.

Apart from about 10 posts up where west country says you can't trust Labour on the economy?

 

[clint van damme]

Yes, you are.

I have said several times, it is not the economic side of things that people question the left wing on, it is the social aspects.

The principles are often naive and stupid.

So you think the tories are serving the vast majority of society well do you?
Could you explain that to me please?
In particular I'm interested in the increased use of food banks by working families, the increase in homelessness and the effects of having the worst wage contraction in Europe bar Greece.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Yes, you are.

I have said several times, it is not the economic side of things that people question the left wing on, it is the social aspects.

The principles are often naive and stupid.

Principles like desegregation, decriminalising homosexuality, healthcare and education as a right, not burning people at the stake for witchcraft, that stuff? Let's look at the more socially conservative countries in the world and see if you would rather live there instead. Progressivism isn't about political correctness, and it isn't about communism either. It's about common sense. It used to be punishable by death to own a copy of the Bible that wasn't in Latin. We could always return to those days if you like?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

So you think the tories are serving the vast majority of society well do you?
Could you explain that to me please?
In particular I'm interested in the increased use of food banks by working families, the increase in homelessness and the effects of having the worst wage contraction in Europe bar Greece.

Don't know what you're concerned about. Grendel says the Tories are being crap on purpose as part of an elaborate scheme to keep Corbyn in office, I'm sure they'll start doing a good job soon.

 

[lifeskyblue]

for the third time, the tories have an ex IRA member as a councillor, why are people ignoring this when discussing Corbyn and the IRA?

Two obvious answers
1. Corbyn hopes to be prime minister and this is a line of attack that Tories think they can use. Labour can't respond re the councillor as they may open themselves up to criticism of hypocrisy.
2. The press aren't bothered as the majority has a right wing agenda. That why Corbyn and abbotts poor responses have been highlighted constantly but May and Hammonds etc haven't. The press don't want us to see that elements of the Tory party are as 'misguided' as labour.

In all this it is forgotten that conciliatory, negotiation and dialogue ended the troubles not bombs, internment or killings. In the end mcGuiness and Paisley sat down together and worked together. We should honour those who brought greater peace to northern Ireland including Major, Blair (who I have little time for on his other policies) and Clinton as well as the likes of mowlam. Perhaps we can despise Corbyn all we like but in the end did he do more or less than any other party leader in this. Probably a little/lot more (even if seen as misguided).


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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Some of you are losing your minds.

I am not pro Tory, or pro Labour, or pro Lib Dem. I am just asking questions.

This arrogance reminds me of the Brexit debacle. People are not going to be persuaded to vote Labour when they are genuinely on the fence and get such a pitch fork response. I'm genuinely looking for the best overall package to vote for, if anything all this thread has done is make me be wary of Labour even more.

Next Thursday ought to be fun if Labour lose, there is such a defensive 'I'm never wrong' attitude flowing here which is not very nice.
.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

their was a picture on twitter the other day of two foxes reading a newspaper which had the headline tories to bring back fox hunting, and one fox was saying to the other, I'm still voting for them.
Pretty much sums things up.

Theresa May admitted on national television that there will be no real terms funding increase for schools, but her manifesto contains a pledge for a real terms increase for the military. You have it first hand, they value tanks and fighter jets over educating the next generation.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Principles like desegregation, decriminalising homosexuality, healthcare and education as a right, not burning people at the stake for witchcraft, that stuff? Let's look at the more socially conservative countries in the world and see if you would rather live there instead. Progressivism isn't about political correctness, and it isn't about communism either. It's about common sense. It used to be punishable by death to own a copy of the Bible that wasn't in Latin. We could always return to those days if you like?

Hungary and Poland - zero terror attacks.

I guess they are just racist though.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

So you think the tories are serving the vast majority of society well do you?
Could you explain that to me please?
In particular I'm interested in the increased use of food banks by working families, the increase in homelessness and the effects of having the worst wage contraction in Europe bar Greece.

No I don't Clint.

I fucking hate them too!

 

[lifeskyblue]

Theresa May admitted on national television that there will be no real terms funding increase for schools, but her manifesto contains a pledge for a real terms increase for the military. You have it first hand, they value tanks and fighter jets over educating the next generation.

Of course you always need cannon fodder to vote you in, fight in the wars while you sit in your cosy Whitehall offices, and to fund the privileged lifestyle as a politician. Just ask thatcher, Blair, brown, Cameron, clegg and May.


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[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Apart from about 10 posts up where west country says you can't trust Labour on the economy?

Well, I don't think you can trust any of them with the economy personally.

I don't think the concerns about the economy are as big as the ones about social and cultural aspects anyway.

 

[clint van damme]

Some of you are losing your minds.

I am not pro Tory, or pro Labour, or pro Lib Dem. I am just asking questions.

This arrogance reminds me of the Brexit debacle. People are not going to be persuaded to vote Labour when they are genuinely on the fence and get such a pitch fork response. I'm genuinely looking for the best overall package to vote for, if anything all this thread has done is make me be wary of Labour even more.

Next Thursday ought to be fun if Labour lose, there is such a defensive 'I'm never wrong' attitude flowing here which is not very nice.
.

There's no arrogance, I'm merely asking you to explain your anti labour stance coherently, you haven't.
I've tried to answer all of your criticisms and concerns, all I've asked is that if you refute what I say try to do it logically and without rhetoric, again, you haven't.

 

[chiefdave]

He said 'all bombing is bad', before refusing to answer a pretty straight question which was 'do you condemn the IRA'.

He said " I condemn all the bombing by both the loyalists and the IRA.” and “I didn’t support the IRA. I don’t support the IRA. What I want everywhere is a peace process,”
Seems clear enough to me. He also was one of of only 68 MPs who signed an early day motion in 1994 which condemned bombing.

I'm sure you think it was a fair audience. I thought the BBC was right wing?

The audience wasn't selected by the BBC, it was selected by a polling company (ComRes). Their brief from the BBC was an audience representative of the country demographically and politically and included: age, gender, ethnicity, socio-economic factors, party politics, how they voted in the EU referendum and some who are undecided.

That's the problem. Most of the Labour policies trump the Conservative ones, but people are not prepared to vote for Corbyn.

And how much of that is down to the media? I've seen a lot of people, when they have seen him give a speech or something like last nights debate, comment about how he came across very differently to how they expected. There is a false version of him being presented by the media.
The people of his constituency seem happy enough. He got elected in 1983 with 40% of the vote and since then has never got less than 50% of the vote.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

There's no arrogance, I'm merely asking you to explain your anti labour stance coherently, you haven't.
I've tried to answer all of your criticisms and concerns, all I've asked is that if you refute what I say try to do it logically and without rhetoric, again, you haven't.

Why is my stance anti-Labour? I have admittedly questioned them more than others because there are more Labour supporters here than anything else. I have said several times I openly dislike all of them.

You have answered a fair amount of my concerns, but as I've said, stuff like immigration isn't clear, and Trident and terrorist affiliations we disagree on.

It hasn't won me over, and my concerns at this point feel justified.