mark82
Super Moderator
Swansea managers generally didn't have the board selling all their decent players allowing a team to be built.
Coleman has a dig at SISU during Wales conference! (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter KersleyDigs
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Swansea managers generally didn't have the board selling all their decent players allowing a team to be built.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
Alright, fuck it, I'm gonna play devil's advocate...
Thorn improved our playing style and morale in the camp from the previous manager. Impossible to say whether the current playing squad would be in the same position in the league if Boothroyd was still in charge and the same players were sold from under him, but I would imagine we would still be in the relegation zone and the football would be toss to watch.
He does make some tactical errors and there are strange substitutions. I cannot recall a single CCFC manager in my history of supporting them who has not. I don't think they surface every game and I am not as frustrated with Thorn in this respect as I have been with previous managers (although this is said with the benefit of hindsight and also with the fact he has been in situ - not in SISU - for less than one full season).
No manager in recent memory has been mugged off as much as Thorn and you cannot look at anything out of the context of SISU, except tactical decisions and substitutions. As I say, Thorn (a rookie football manager) shows some naivety here. Enough for me to withdraw my support of him? No.
Finally, an argument I am always guilty of returning to... Let's imagine that you are SISU. Remember exactly what your priorities seem to be and how you operate. Let's assume you sack Thorn and pay him out of his (relatively measly) contract. Who would you employ? If we know anything about SISU, it is that their expenditure leaves a lot to be desired. If we know anything about CCFC, it is that we have hired and fired too many managers in recent years. If you can state 'Thorn Out', you should be able to state 'X In'.
Thorn improved our playing style and morale in the camp from the previous manager. Impossible to say whether the current playing squad would be in the same position in the league if Boothroyd was still in charge and the same players were sold from under him, but I would imagine we would still be in the relegation zone and the football would be toss to watch.
He does make some tactical errors and there are strange substitutions. I cannot recall a single CCFC manager in my history of supporting them who has not. I don't think they surface every game and I am not as frustrated with Thorn in this respect as I have been with previous managers (although this is said with the benefit of hindsight and also with the fact he has been in situ - not in SISU - for less than one full season).
No manager in recent memory has been mugged off as much as Thorn and you cannot look at anything out of the context of SISU, except tactical decisions and substitutions. As I say, Thorn (a rookie football manager) shows some naivety here. Enough for me to withdraw my support of him? No.
Finally, an argument I am always guilty of returning to... Let's imagine that you are SISU. Remember exactly what your priorities seem to be and how you operate. Let's assume you sack Thorn and pay him out of his (relatively measly) contract. Who would you employ? If we know anything about SISU, it is that their expenditure leaves a lot to be desired. If we know anything about CCFC, it is that we have hired and fired too many managers in recent years. If you can state 'Thorn Out', you should be able to state 'X In'.
So despite over 26 games, i can't tell me what good Thorn has done as a manager. Speaks volumes don't you think?
I would love to replace him with S'OD but like i said i know thats not possible under the current regime.
Fair enough becasue no-one wanted Swansea's players due to them been not household names.
Managers got the best out of whats avaliable... Choose a formation and team which gets the best from players.
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Fair enough.
Has he improved the playing style though? We play neat sidewards passing. Which is so ineffective. 20 goals all season is a testament to that. Our football is not exactly edge of your seat stuff is it?
His substitutions are an issue for me because we’ve lost points late on in goals for various reasons including his reluctant to make changes at certain times (The day Bigi was sent off a prime example)
Thorn has had an easy ride off the fans in my eyes... Not once have i heard Thorn out despite our league position. Thorn luckily for him has SISU to thank because all the attention is on them
I know SISU wont get rid of him and on a matchday i support and want the lads to win, don’t mean i’m happy with the manager but i’ll support whoever. Ideal world. S’OD in from next season and have a chance to build a team for the future.
mark82
Super Moderator
I think the point is that changing the manager at this stage is not going to make much difference. So why bother. It's only going to put new manager under pressure before they even have a chance.
As you rightly say O'Driscoll is probably not realistic at the current time, although think he would be a fantastic choice, so why not wait until he is (i.e. next season). If things don't improve.
As you rightly say O'Driscoll is probably not realistic at the current time, although think he would be a fantastic choice, so why not wait until he is (i.e. next season). If things don't improve.
DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe
New Member
I take your point about whether it is an 'improvement' in playing style, I just meant I would rather watch the football under Thorn than I would the football under Boothroyd. And the goals tally is also dictated by SISU's inability to keep hold of players like King and Jutkiewicz. Hindsight is always gonna be useful when looking at his substitutions, but people are more likely to see things which tally with their opinions... so, if you are 'anti Thorn' you may hold him responsible for not changing things the way you would and if you are 'pro Thorn' you might see the blame for these dropped points as attributable to particular players. As I say, it's never black or white and football fans are not known for their objectivity (hence the easy ride you feel Thorn gets). I understand what you mean when you say Thorn is lucky to have SISU to deflect any blame, but the flipside of that is that Thorn is getting some blame because he is unlucky enough to have got his first managerial job under SISU. I'm a big fan of Sean O'Driscoll on paper, I just think we have hired and fired our way through too many managers whilst I have been a fan. My priority is;
SISU out
See what Thorn can do in League 1
Think about a change when I have had enough of him!
I'm not there yet. I don't know whether that makes me defeatist or a mug... and I am even less sure if it makes any difference if I am. SISU are in charge and our fate looks ever more set with each game.
CUS like Swansea who have employed the same system under several managers now ,we are relatively tight at the back ,but not quite tight enough ,probably 70-80% of our losses are
down to individual errors ,i guess that could be true of any team ,but as i only see City every other week can't tell,,For the last 4-5 five years they've had a world class goalkeeper to help.
The real difference between us and them is the outlet ball and total confidence while on it .They have extreme pace in their front line in the wide players,who are both adept in scoring.
I think the system can and does work for us ,its the chances we miss that are really costing us ,so that coupled with the individual errors ,which are linked to the quality within the squad
and size of it are the telling factors ,theres no doubting the players are with the manager who does make mistakes form time to time ,but i think its a good template to follow the likes
of Swansea and build through the next few managers in this style,while somehow ,through squad building/ developement, eeradicating the two flaws that are evident .We need to
think in and for the longterm for once ,this will be critical ,if we are to ever climdb again. edit ;Can't get this damn technology /formatting
down to individual errors ,i guess that could be true of any team ,but as i only see City every other week can't tell,,For the last 4-5 five years they've had a world class goalkeeper to help.
The real difference between us and them is the outlet ball and total confidence while on it .They have extreme pace in their front line in the wide players,who are both adept in scoring.
I think the system can and does work for us ,its the chances we miss that are really costing us ,so that coupled with the individual errors ,which are linked to the quality within the squad
and size of it are the telling factors ,theres no doubting the players are with the manager who does make mistakes form time to time ,but i think its a good template to follow the likes
of Swansea and build through the next few managers in this style,while somehow ,through squad building/ developement, eeradicating the two flaws that are evident .We need to
think in and for the longterm for once ,this will be critical ,if we are to ever climdb again. edit ;Can't get this damn technology /formatting
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Bloodnut1964
New Member
Football is not all about tactics at all, it don't matter what tactics you use if the players aren't good enough and you can't say the majority of fans would agree co's you don't know that.
However, you are entitled to your opinion.
And in my opinion Thorn is doing the best job he can, sure he has made mistakes, but you show me a manager that hasn't? Were not Man Utd or Barcelona, were Championship Coventry City, so get real before you start pointing a finger and look at the bigger picture.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Nah, I don't think we can compare our situation with theres. Not only do we have ZERO money to spend but we've also got rid of a team full including two leading scorers and the best keeper in the division.
Nick
Administrator
Of course it is about tactics, how many times this season have we seen a manager change things with the same players on the pitch and then beat us?
Tactics include substitutions, noticing where we are weak and being hammered and preventing it and noticing other teams weak spots to push onto.
Wyken, I answered your question and you accused me of being pissed and then you go on to say "why doesn't anyone answer my question"
Wyken, you're certainly thick and probably ugly and tomorrow I'll be sober.
You said he put a great team spirit. Well That i don’t see but each to their own opinion.
If that’s the case, what good on the pitch has he done to give you confidence. His tactical awareness? His way of finding opponents weakness and exposing them?
What exactly as a football manager has he done?
Zero money to spend? That’s a lie. Didn’t we pay money for Cody MacDonald?
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is a lie, my apologies. We've bought one player, who has been injured for most of his time here. Another hurdle for AT.
We've also had two goalies and two outfielders, one who is 37.
Actually, yes you're right. Things ain't so bad! Thorn out! Thorn out! :facepalm:
We've bought one player, who has been injured for most of his time here. Another hurdle for AT.We've also had two goalies and two outfielders, one who is 37.
Actually, yes you're right. Things ain't so bad! Thorn out! Thorn out! :facepalm:
Are you for real?
Tactics have everything to do with football. That’s where games are won and loss.
Tactics and formation are used to bring out the best of what you’ve got. The diamond is not working and does not suit the crop of players we have. Sooner Thorn realises that the better.
Im not disputing he’s trying his best but his best is not good enough.
Yes, it is a lie, my apologies.
Yes it’s been unfortunate Torch But plenty of teams have injuries etc..
I have nothing personal against Thorn, bless the fella, his position is hard I agree but i also feel this team is not a team i believe is should be 7 points worse than safety. Were better than that. It just needs a bit of luck and Thorn to change his tactics to benefit the team.
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Bloodnut1964
New Member
Yes Tactics do count but but it's not all about tactics as you said it was.
And my point is which you have totally missed is that the players aren't good enough and that is not Thorns fault.
I would like to see any manager take a bad team like CCFC and make them good when every decent asset they have is being sold from underneath them, we have not finished anywhere near the top of the league for years, so how do you expect Thorn to? We had a bad team last year and the year before and the year before, we were only just avoiding relegation then with supposedly better managers then Thorn and better players. Take a reality check, don't moan just for the sake of it or blame someone just for the sake of it, give your opinion yes by all means but don't spout off about stuff you have not got a clue about!
In any business try and turn things around with no joined up thinking at the top. Not going to happen.
Just over a year ago Ranson ( a footballing person and close to the way things were being mismanaged) couldn't take it any longer and walked.
Now, we have a clueless idiot called Wyken who thinks the league table lies, that with a bit of luck and a change of tactics we'd be doing way better.
Its quite terrifying that in this day and age such people are walking the streets.
Nick
Administrator
I don't agree, we haven't really been spanked this season bar Ipswich. It has always been late goals, individual mistakes so it does show the players have it in them.
We seem to have spells in games where we dominate, then it is as if other managers make changes and then it counteracts it and Thorn doesn't change anything. I don't expect us to be winning the league with our squad, but I think we shouldn't be where we are with some of our performances!
If we were getting spanked every week I would say the players aren't good enough.
Its alot more scarier that people think 1) tactics don't infulence results and 2) luck doesn't play a part.
You are very deluded if you think either of the above to make a difference.
Nick, The bulk of the team are young tho' - KIDS
What with results going against us plus all the protests etc. it must make them wonder what is going on.....to expect them to be able to have the experience to adapt formations etc. when all they have is youth is actually ridiculous.
What with results going against us plus all the protests etc. it must make them wonder what is going on.....to expect them to be able to have the experience to adapt formations etc. when all they have is youth is actually ridiculous.
I haven't got a clue? Remind me what fans were saying the other week. We played well, we were unlucky. Vital times this season in vital games, Thorns tactics or lack off have cost us points.
If you opened your eyes to the bigger picture you would see that.
Jesus, too many people nowadays thinks they buy the best players and get instant success..
Its what you do in training, what you see, what you think will bring the best out of players, tactics, formation and set pieces that matters.
Epic fail, try again in English.
Jesus christ and you have the audacity to call me clueless
Your blaming the protests now but not Thorns tactics... priceless.
There old enough to know about formations and tactics. If they don't know by 17/18 then they shouldnt be playing football. Simple as that. When i was 14 i knew what tactics were.
Nick
Administrator
They are being paid to play football, they have been playing football all their lives, they play football all day every day. To say that because they are 19 they can't play a different formation is shocking.
Again, if playing the kids got us hammered every week I could understand, but we don't get hammered every week. Yes, we lose but we don't get hammered and it is usually the odd late goal here and there.
When I played football at 15/16 I wasn't a pro, but I could pretty much play anywhere on the pitch, I also knew about man marking / zonal and how to switch tactics if needed. If we knew their right back was crap we knew to put it on him as it was their weak point. If a goalie couldn't catch we would shoot on sight.
This was every day sunday kids football, if kids on 2k a week can't manage to adapt then they should be sacked!
Rubbish excuse IMO!
Nick i don't believe the statements that kids of 18 don't know about tactics... its priceless.
Bloodnut1964
New Member
Sounds like you been playing Football Manager too much pal co's what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever.
Bloodnut1964
New Member
So if they know what tactics are they should be able to use them and make them work, you ain't got a clue really have ya.
