Astute
Well-Known Member
So we were doing badly until 1993?
Some people here would have fitted in well with campaigners for remain. How do you expect to be taken seriously when only looking at one side?
The EU: In, out, shake it all about.... (30 Viewers)
- Thread starter jimmyhillsfanclub
- Start date
Some people here would have fitted in well with campaigners for remain. How do you expect to be taken seriously when only looking at one side?
Astute
Well-Known Member
Just saying what?
SIR ERNIE
Well-Known Member
No, it’s not bollocks and as it’s my personal opinion it’s not a lie.
As I’ve said, I’ve spent considerable time working and living in Italy over the last five years. I have many friends there and I speak the language. My observation based on that experience is that a large and increasing number of Italians attribute the country’s growing economic difficulties to the Euro. They want to get out of the Euro and many believe that the only way that can happen is to exit the EU itself. That’s why many Italians admire the fact that the UK retained their own currency and share our desire to break free of the EU. Not all Italians but a large and it seems to me, increasing proportion.
That’s my observation, based on my experience. It may well be very different to your observation based on your experience of Italy. That’s fine. It’s not a lie simply because you don’t want to hear it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Just correcting the assumption that we were only in the common market in 76, we weren't. That's nothing to do with taking sides that's stating a fact. We were essentially in the EU albeit not in name and with the same powers pre Maastricht. The common market did not evolve into the EU. If you don't want to deal with facts fair enough.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Turkey has no appetite to join the EU. Which is what I've been trying to point out to you from the start.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
You clearly presented it as a fact.
The number of Italians wanting to leave the EU is still in a minority, and as far as I'm aware the only political party wanting to leave is La Lega. Granted, from your posting history you appear to share many of their ideals.
The shambolic 5 Star movement want to leave the Euro, but they are an utter shambles and are not going to gain power.
Having read the Italian press over the last year, I've seen very little admiration for Brexit. As in the UK, the younger generation is very pro-EU.
The main reasons for the Italian economy's poor performance is deep, deep corrupton across the whole of society, and massive tax evasion, which is practised by pretty much everyone.
Just found this which may well be of interest you Italian uproar over fascist-themed beach near Venice - BBC News
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Astute
Well-Known Member
And what was I supposed to have said?
Astute
Well-Known Member
So are you pretending that the common market was the same as the EU, you actually believe that the common market was the same as the EU or are you just coming out with crap to try and validate some sort of point?
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
what remain bullshit? Leave won based on lies, remain didn't.
You want the net 10 billion save you refer to spend where it's needed. If you think that's going to happen you're mad. It will go exactly where it's not needed.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Some parts of Italy want out. Some want to stay in. Just the same as the UK. And just because you can name parts that want to stay in it doesn't mean that everywhere wants to stay.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
2 and 4 could still happen, I really fear number 2 will.
As for the record numbers in work, thre is a back story to that which we both know you've conveniently forgotten to mention.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Less than 50% in Italy even support having a referendum. Granted, parts of the Venteto would vote to leave, but they want to leave Italy all together.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Whichever side would have won would have done so because of lies. But most people saw through them. Or are you saying that all leave voters voted so because they believed the lies?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
No. I'm saying the opposite. Some would have you believe that we joined the common market and common market alone, we didn't, we joined the European communities which gave us access to the common market. It's the European communities that became the EU. That's the distinction I'm making.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Not all. Just a large proportion!
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
You said that the "EU couldn't afford for Turkey to join the EU and the EU were shitting themselves at the prospect" as part of a leave argument. When nothing could be further from the truth. Turkey aren't interested in joining the EU, more now than ever. At best it was political gain in Turkey to suggest the prospect. The general attitude in Turkey over the past decade has moved away from becoming European and becoming more Islamic.
Whether the EU could or couldn't afford Turkey joining is irrelevant because it isn't happening so for the same reason no one in the EU is shitting themselves at the prospect of Turkey joining. Unless of course you chose to believe Boris and the leave campaign.
I think Germany has more problems with Turkey's democratic standards. They have a German/ Turkish journalist from "Die Welt" in jail. They wouldn't let German politicians visit German troops stationed in Turkey. Erdogan wants to conduct political campaigns in Germany at mass Trump style rallies. Erdogan's Mosques in Germany support undemocratic forms of Islam and collect information on people in Germany who are anti Erdogan or Kurds. These and lots more problems existed before or are independent of Brexit and have nothing to do with any shortfall from the UK.
Turkey was doing well politically and economically before Erdogan said that he thought Hitler's form of government was good and went about setting himself up to be a virtual dictator. I don't think Turkey has a chance of being admitted to the EU in the foreseeable future. So, your theory is irrelevant. You could say they can't afford to have Venezuela join.... they have as much chance as Turkey...
You also claimed that the right was growing rapidly in Germany and that Merkel was extremely unpopular. AfD got 6% in the latest state election and is at 9% in the polls. Merkel's party is 17 points in front of their nearest challengers. So I think it may be that you base your judgements on the people you associate with in your bubble and therefore your opinions should be taken with a pinch of salt.
Well.... should the U.K. go down the tubes as a result of their votes, it would be a good excuse to point to the EU and say look at them. It's worse there, thank god we're out of that. Forgetting that if the EU collapses as a result of the Brexit vote, they will also be at fault for that.
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Yes, to remind him. Real wages have contracted because of inflation, and unemployment is forecast to have risen in June and the trend is expected to continue.
The EU will have to either have an army or very close military cooperation. It is rich area with trade interests all over the world. It is not going to replace other armies in the near future, but no doubt it will do in some future scenario. If it does it will have to agreed upon- as the Euro was. Those that don't want to play ( e.g. Britain if it had stayed in ) would get a get-out clause as with the Euro.
Now that Trump has said yes, no or maybe to NATO, it is obvious that the EU needs to protect it's trade and territory with forces both in NATO and, for the case that the USA does alter the rules of NATO or drops out of NATO, that there is an alternative at hand.
There still can be an increase in unemployment and a tariff war..... we are not even halfway there with getting out of the EU. Things aren't looking rosy and the implication that there will be a negative effect on the economy looks like becoming true. You may be able to nit pick the details, or it may not go exactly as predicted, but as it stands there seems to be plenty of economic downside to leaving.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I've already listed the numerous lies the remain campaign told on here. The motivation for a lot of remain voters was not a love of the EU but a fear based on statements of economic meltdown immediately after the decision to leave was made.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
I find it utterly hilarious that the youth of today who we are told are the future are so ignorant of history that they voted in droves for the most anti EU party leader we've had since Michael Foot.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
And likewise for the leave campaign. I think I made the point very early in this thread that if you took both campaigns on face value you wouldn't vote either in or out as both campaigns were spurious and based on fear telling you why you shouldn't vote for the other argument rather than why you should vote for theirs.
The leave campaign was always going to be based on negativity. Remains campaign failed because it fell into the same trap rather than promoting a positive remain campaign.
Grendel
Well-Known Member
It didn't merge into the EU at all. The European Union was a political integration strategy aimed at developing a federal Europe. The Maastricht and Lisbon treaties created a union which no one voted for in the UK
Our economic prosperity in the 90's was largely due to one thing. Our decision to retain our own currency. If we hadn't we most certainly would not now be the 5th largest economy. It's devaluation in the 90's would have had a catastrophic impact on the uk. Without being rude if you deny this then you are not worthy of debate as practically every economist will tell you that.
Only once did we try and ally to Europe and that was the Exchange Rate Mechanism. Despite her bluster until that point Thatcher was a typical euriphile. The dopes Lampnt and Clarke would have kept us in it and had the euro. At they point mortgage interest rates would have escalated to virtually 20%. It showed the price you really could pay allied to a huge unworkable conglomerate like the EU.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
I actually agree with you. A Corbynista I know claims JC wants to stay in the Single Market and probably the EU, but it's not true at all. I still believe he will face a massive backlash.
I voted for Labour for the first time since Blair through gritted teeth, as it was a better alternative to May, IMO.
But leave did have some positivity. The assumption, based on how things were passed across, from some leavers was that when our politicians have the control, everything will be better. We will make deals with the whole wide world and we will sail into the sunset whilst the EU collapses behind us. There is even at least one cartoon showing exactly this situation. People are likely to be disappointed when we don't actually sail into the sunset, but potentially end up in a storm with no one knowing whether we survive it.
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Sick Boy
Super Moderator
Was the € not introduced in 1999?
Without being rude if you deny this then you are not worthy of debate as practically every economist will tell you that. <-- Strange how this doesn't apply to yourself and the majority of economist warnings of the dangers of Brexit, eh?
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Who ratified the treaties you refer to? Our elected representatives. We gave them the right to do that. That is our parliamentary system. So, in effect we did indirectly vote for the treaties...as with all other legislation ever passed in our democratic system.
If you remember Healey coming back from holiday to arrange a bailout, the Winter of discontent, inflation linked pay rises, then you can see what can happen outside of the present EU - then old common market and before. You prefer to blame all disasters, or your presumption of possible disastrous conditions, on being in the EU or Euro.
Having control by our politicians doesn't necessarily mean we are better off. Leaving the EU is not a magic formula for a successful UK. Far from it.
What is the volume in UK - Europe trade now in comparison to before these treaties were passed? How many people are now employed in the U.K. compared to before these treaties were passed?
Won't argue with your speculation on ERM. You could be right... ( my speculation).
In 2002 as a cash currency.
Astute
Well-Known Member
Yes we chose to be a part of the common market. It became the EU. The EU decided that we should have open borders. The EU decided that we should give billions each year for them to waste on a gravy train.
Yet you make out that ve voted to join the EU.
Sick Boy
Super Moderator
We don't have open borders, you go through passport control. Also, an EU national has 3 months to find a job before the country has the power to deport them.
Our parliament ratified the treaties. We have a parliamentary democracy. Our parliament passes all laws and they evolve constantly. According to your argument we never voted on any of our laws because a referendum wasn't held on each law.
We now have more trade with Europe and more people in work than ever before in our history. The EU seems to have been a great help to get us to this point. If we close the borders to pre 1993 conditions, I suspect we would decline from this position..