Oh Jeremy Corbyn (34 Viewers)

[SIR ERNIE]

No matter what some claim, the state of the Conservatives at the moment makes it almost inevitable.

Far from inevitable. I sense people are already beginning to wake up to the nightmare that would follow a Labour victory and a likely coalition with the SNP.

I agree that the Conservative party are a joke with a feeble, ineffective leader but at the moment the alternative is too awful to contemplate.

I have a feeling that Mr Farage feels his job is not done and may well return to stir things up in the near future. That would go a long way to ensuring Labour never get anywhere near power.

 

---

[Deleted member 5849]

taking steps to safeguard their wealth

They'll be in the self-centred 10% then

 

[Sick Boy]

Far from inevitable. I sense people are already beginning to wake up to the nightmare that would follow a Labour victory and a likely coalition with the SNP.

I agree that the Conservative party are a joke with a feeble, ineffective leader but at the moment the alternative is too awful to contemplate.

I have a feeling that Mr Farage feels his job is not done and may well return to stir things up in the near future. That would go a long way to ensuring Labour never get anywhere near power.

I'm apprehensive about Corbyn and don't understand the cult around him. I have heard some worrying things about Momentum at the local Labour meetings and hate the idea of them trying to deselect excellent local MP, Peter Kyle.

I also feel that a section of his supporters believe that he is actually more pro-remain than they think- I know a Corbynista who he is convinced Corbyn is pro-EU. I believe his views on Europe will ultimately be his downfall, particularly as a majority of members and Labour voters are pro-Europe, especially the young.

Not sure how Farage is going to stop Corbyn's rise though? A problem the Conservatives have is that there is no one to come in and replace May, Johnson is a buffoon and wouldn't last 5 minutes.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'm apprehensive about Corbyn and don't understand the cult around him. I have heard some worrying things about Momentum at the local Labour meetings and hate the idea of them trying to deselect excellent local MP, Peter Kyle.

I also feel that a section of his supporters believe that he is actually more pro-remain than they think- I know a Corbynista who he is convinced Corbyn is pro-EU. I believe his views on Europe will ultimately be his downfall, particularly as a majority of members and Labour voters are pro-Europe, especially the young.

Not sure how Farage is going to stop Corbyn's rise though? A problem the Conservatives have is that there is no one to come in and replace May, Johnson is a buffoon and wouldn't last 5 minutes.

FWIW, I (re) joined the Labour Party to vote for someone other than Corbyn!

But then the sudden change of rules to stop me voting (because of the fear amongst the standing members that he might actually win) stopped me doing that, and the campaign against him turned me against that wing of the party.

FWIW, I can have an idealised and a pragmatic view. The manifesto, to my mind, was a social democratic manifesto that wasn't particularly radical. If that's what we get from a left leaning leader, pegged by party consensus, then that's fine by me.

It's often said that the Labour Party are their own worst enemies, they're not as ruthless as the Troies, who know when to stop fighting, and pick their battles with the opposition rather than themselves. If the Labour Party do that they can become a strong progressive force in this country. If they don't... they let the ruthless lot win again.

 

[Sick Boy]

The fact the manifesto is regarded as radical shows how far to the right the country has drifted!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The fact the manifesto is regarded as radical shows how far to the right the country has drifted!

I suspect it's partly the caricature of Corbyn as the looney lefty. and then when the manifesto ends up something that other left leaning parties in government run with... this caricature has to continue.

I also like the fact that at least there are positive solutions thought of to solve issues, rather than a culture of blame, hatred, and resentment. Perhaps instead of just repeating strong and stable, and Brexit means Brexit, the Tory Party had come up with some positive solutions, they might have done better.

Or are they so scared by their own default of negativity, that they don't feel able to put solutions forward for fear of this?

 

[Grendel]

The fact the manifesto is regarded as radical shows how far to the right the country has drifted!

We are nothing like drifting to the right. Cameron and May are hopeless liberals without a conservative bone in their bodies.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

We are nothing like drifting to the right. Cameron and May are hopeless liberals without a conservative bone in their bodies.

Cameron was the most acceptable face of the Tory Party since Major, but he was in no way a Ted Heath, who'd be seen as a loony lefty nowadays!

 

[Grendel]

Cameron was the most acceptable face of the Tory Party since Major, but he was in no way a Ted Heath, who'd be seen as a loony lefty nowadays!

Give some examples of how their policies show we are drifting to the right.

 

[skybluetony176]

His wife is a neo-nazi and has a swastika tattooed on her chest. Lovely people.

Just looked her up. I'm usually a fan of a painted lady, her not so much though. Must be the subject matter. Like you say, lovely people.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

When listening to the radio I bet your favourite programme is sounds of the 70's

Strawbs - Part of the union 1973 - YouTube

 

[Kingokings204]

The fact the manifesto is regarded as radical shows how far to the right the country has drifted!

You think how far to the right we have drifted when we have a very central and liberal conservative government is bizarre.

I would love to see what you would say if we had a real conservative right of centre government.

 

[torchomatic]

You think how far to the right we have drifted when we have a very central and liberal conservative government is bizarre.

I would love to see what you would say if we had a real conservative right of centre government.

Tory voters now think their party is more right-wing than Ukip

 

[Grendel]

Tory voters now think their party is more right-wing than Ukip

That's a clearly reliable survey.

 

[Captain Dart]

Saw a documentary featuring this Mark Collett fella a few years back. The programme was about the BNP and I'm pretty sure the show concluded with Collett flouncing out of the party because they weren't right wing enough.

Just saying...

I'll listen to anyone even if they're a tad bonkers, for heavens sake I'm even following Ms Abbott & Mr McDonnell. Actually this was a retweet by someone else.

 

[mrtrench]

I suspect it's partly the caricature of Corbyn as the looney lefty. and then when the manifesto ends up something that other left leaning parties in government run with... this caricature has to continue.

I also like the fact that at least there are positive solutions thought of to solve issues, rather than a culture of blame, hatred, and resentment. Perhaps instead of just repeating strong and stable, and Brexit means Brexit, the Tory Party had come up with some positive solutions, they might have done better.

Or are they so scared by their own default of negativity, that they don't feel able to put solutions forward for fear of this?

Or his inability to deny being a Marxist. And his history of loony left antics.

 

[Captain Dart]

I'm apprehensive about Corbyn and don't understand the cult around him. I have heard some worrying things about Momentum at the local Labour meetings and hate the idea of them trying to deselect excellent local MP, Peter Kyle.

I also feel that a section of his supporters believe that he is actually more pro-remain than they think- I know a Corbynista who he is convinced Corbyn is pro-EU. I believe his views on Europe will ultimately be his downfall, particularly as a majority of members and Labour voters are pro-Europe, especially the young.

Not sure how Farage is going to stop Corbyn's rise though? A problem the Conservatives have is that there is no one to come in and replace May, Johnson is a buffoon and wouldn't last 5 minutes.

Its just Mlitant reborn, I attended Corbyn's visit to Coventry when was campaigning to get elected as leader just to gauge the man.
A number of former Militants I know about were there except I think Dave Nellist (though I think Nellist's wife was in the hall).

 

[mrtrench]

Inequality in the UK was mentioned. I decided to do some reading on inequality and how it is measured; now sharing as I think it's good to share knowledge.

Economists measure inequality using the Gini coefficient. To explain this, I first need to explain the Lorenz curve: Imagine an x axis which starts with the least wealthy and ends in the most, and a y axis which measures the percentage of wealth cumulatively (starting at 0 and ending at 100). If everyone had identical wealth then the Lorenz curve would be a straight line at 45 degrees. For any other distribution it will be a curve underneath that line.

Now measure the area of the curve under the 45 degree line and compare it to the total area under the line. This is the Gini coefficient. With no inequality the value is 0 (as the area between the line and itself is 0). The greater the coefficient, the greater the inequality. The link below shows the Gini in 2017 by country. The UK is way down the list - less inequality than Japan, Russia, USA and many other first world countries. The UK has more inequality than several EU countries - but there is not an awful lot in it:

Distribution of family income - Gini index 2017 country comparisons, ranks, By Rank

Then I looked up the movement of the Gini Coefficient in the UK over time, to test the statement that there is more inequality recently. This proves to be untrue. Inequality fell after 2010 and has been bouncing around fairly constantly at the same level since. It rose several points over the last Labour government's last two terms:

How Has Inequality Changed? | The Equality Trust

We can debate the reasons for the rise in Gini in the UK from 1977 to 2009. There will be many reasons, one of which is opening up free markets, which enabled people who wanted to get on to do so. These years also saw an increase in equality of opportunity, so that working class people could seize opportunities to become more wealthy. Globalisation also played a part, as there was increased competition for talent. The textbook I have been reading suggests that social issues also played a part, as it became more commonplace to have single-parent families.

Some thoughts:

- Corbyn's assertion that 'this Tory government has increased inequality' doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
- The UK is actually doing pretty well compared to most other countries, including that former bastion of socialism, Russia. And way better than Communist China.
- It would be good to aspire to get to the Gini of Germany and France, but looking at the data we are really not that far behind.
- Inequality is bad because it causes jealousy. But is that really a sensible way to think? Personally, I believe that so long as everyone is reaping the benefits of technology and efficiency and becoming more wealthy, albeit at different rates, then that is a good thing. Especially if the methods used to attempt to reduce the Gini actually result in slowing down the growth of wealth or even reducing wealth.

 

[mrtrench]

One should also consider wealth per capita, as it's not great to have no inequality but low income. This shows wealth per capita for OECD countries. Again the UK comes out well - higher than Germany & France. The UK is a wonderful place to live - we should count ourselves fortunate.

List of countries by financial assets per capita - Wikipedia

 

[mrtrench]

For the second day, militants attempted to disrupt the Tory conference. At one stage a group disrupted a meeting being held by Rees-Mogg, shouting and waving banners. I don't believe that any Tories did the same to Labour's conference last week, but moving on, here is some footage of a protester challenging RM:



I decided to check his assertions:

1) "People are dying because of Tory policies." I can find no evidence of this.
2) "A million people depend on food banks." As already discussed, nobody depends on food banks - they are there on an exceptional basis for emergencies. In fact there were 1.1 million hand outs in the last year. As, people can return several times over a year, it seems extremely unlikely that a million people are using them.
UK foodbank use continues to rise
3) "We are the only advanced economy with depreciating wages". Not true on any level. UK wages are not depreciating
United Kingdom Average Weekly Earnings Growth | 2001-2017 | Data | Chart
and they are appreciating faster than France (for example):
France Monthly Wages Growth QoQ | 1999-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar
4) "That's a categorical lie [that employment is the best way out of poverty]". I don't know where to start. If employment isn't the best way out of poverty then what is? Unemployment?

This kind of hyper-emotional rhetoric is being bandied about all over the place by similar people. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If the only objections are not true, could it be that their opinions are built upon the sand?

 

[fernandopartridge]

For the second day, militants attempted to disrupt the Tory conference. At one stage a group disrupted a meeting being held by Rees-Mogg, shouting and waving banners. I don't believe that any Tories did the same to Labour's conference last week, but moving on, here is some footage of a protester challenging RM:



I decided to check his assertions:

1) "People are dying because of Tory policies." I can find no evidence of this.
2) "A million people depend on food banks." As already discussed, nobody depends on food banks - they are there on an exceptional basis for emergencies. In fact there were 1.1 million hand outs in the last year. As, people can return several times over a year, it seems extremely unlikely that a million people are using them.
UK foodbank use continues to rise
3) "We are the only advanced economy with depreciating wages". Not true on any level. UK wages are not depreciating
United Kingdom Average Weekly Earnings Growth | 2001-2017 | Data | Chart
and they are appreciating faster than France (for example):
France Monthly Wages Growth QoQ | 1999-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar
4) "That's a categorical lie [that employment is the best way out of poverty]". I don't know where to start. If employment isn't the best way out of poverty then what is? Unemployment?

This kind of hyper-emotional rhetoric is being bandied about all over the place by similar people. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If the only objections are not true, could it be that their opinions are built upon the sand?

Unless you missed it, and it would be easy to do so due to how inept they are, the Conservatives are the party of government. It is for that reason that protests tend to happen at their conference rather than the Labour one.

Where have you looked for the evidence of people dying due to Tory policies? The Daily Telegraph?

If somebody needs to use a foodbank at any point, they have a degree of dependency on them. If a million people have used foodbanks, a million people have been dependent on them not necessarily simultaneously.

Why have you produced a earnings growth chart from 2001 - 2007? Labour were in power at that point.

 

[mrtrench]

Unless you missed it, and it would be easy to do so due to how inept they are, the Conservatives are the party of government. It is for that reason that protests tend to happen at their conference rather than the Labour one.

Where have you looked for the evidence of people dying due to Tory policies? The Daily Telegraph?

If somebody needs to use a foodbank at any point, they have a degree of dependency on them. If a million people have used foodbanks, a million people have been dependent on them not necessarily simultaneously.

Why have you produced a earnings growth chart from 2001 - 2007? Labour were in power at that point.

I haven't found any evidence anywhere. Find some and prove me wrong.

Extremely unlikely that 1 million people have used them at all, if the total number of times used is only just greater than 1 million. 'Depend upon' implies constant use and that of course isn't the case. Had he said "There were 1 million food bank visits last year" it would have been accurate - but then that doesn't sound so good does it?

The charts are to 2017, not 2007.

 

[fernandopartridge]

One should also consider wealth per capita, as it's not great to have no inequality but low income. This shows wealth per capita for OECD countries. Again the UK comes out well - higher than Germany & France. The UK is a wonderful place to live - we should count ourselves fortunate.

List of countries by financial assets per capita - Wikipedia

Considering Britain has more billionaires than ever before with an increasing share of the country's wealth, the assets per capita tells you very little about the average working man or woman.

What tells you a lot more is stories like this: Subscribe to read

 

[Sick Boy]

One should also consider wealth per capita, as it's not great to have no inequality but low income. This shows wealth per capita for OECD countries. Again the UK comes out well - higher than Germany & France. The UK is a wonderful place to live - we should count ourselves fortunate.

List of countries by financial assets per capita - Wikipedia

Strange that it always seems come near the bottom in terms of quality of life surveys.

 

[mrtrench]

Considering Britain has more billionaires than ever before with an increasing share of the country's wealth, the assets per capita tells you very little about the average working man or woman.

What tells you a lot more is stories like this: Subscribe to read

No, the extremely competitive and falling (since 2010) Gini coefficient, in combination with wealth per capita, tells you much about the average person though. I cannot access your link.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I haven't found any evidence anywhere. Find some and prove me wrong.

Extremely unlikely that 1 million people have used them at all, if the total number of times used is only just greater than 1 million. 'Depend upon' implies constant use and that of course isn't the case. Had he said "There were 1 million food bank visits last year" it would have been accurate - but then that doesn't sound so good does it?

The charts are to 2017, not 2007.

Dependency is using a foodbank or going with out. It's still a dependency even if a one-off.

"There were 1 million food bank visits last year" it would have been accurate - but then that doesn't sound so good does it?

It doesn't sound much better for the Tories, does it?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

"That's a categorical lie [that employment is the best way out of poverty]"

Hmmm. My employers might be upset if I listened to said video but, if that is solely what he said, then he is of course wrong... and mad.

It would be valuable to differentiate between *types* of employment however, some of which don't help get people out of poverty. As a soundbyte it's... tenuous, but expanding there's a very real debate to be had about the quality of employment contracts.

As for earnings, the link you gave says that "Adjusted for price inflation, average weekly earnings including bonuses fell 0.4 percent, following a 0.5 percent decrease in the previous period and marking the fourth straight drop. Excluding bonuses, real earnings went down 0.4 percent, the fifth consecutive decline."

So he's not wrong about wages going down.

 

[Sick Boy]

It's good to see that more an more young people are getting engaged with politics!

 

[mrtrench]

Hmmm. My employers might be upset if I listened to said video but, if that is solely what he said, then he is of course wrong... and mad.

It would be valuable to differentiate between *types* of employment however, some of which don't help get people out of poverty. As a soundbyte it's... tenuous, but expanding there's a very real debate to be had about the quality of employment contracts.

As for earnings, the link you gave says that "Adjusted for price inflation, average weekly earnings including bonuses fell 0.4 percent, following a 0.5 percent decrease in the previous period and marking the fourth straight drop. Excluding bonuses, real earnings went down 0.4 percent, the fifth consecutive decline."

So he's not wrong about wages going down.

Accepted that in real terms it has reduced. However as French wages growth was 0.5% and inflation is 1%, then clearly in real terms it is falling there too:

France Inflation Rate | 1958-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast

and in Italy

Italy Hourly Wage Inflation YoY | 1983-2017 | Data | Chart | Calendar

And in Japan and Switzerland:

TRADING ECONOMICS | 300.00 INDICATORS | 196 COUNTRIES

and many other places too.

 

[mrtrench]

It is for that reason that protests tend to happen at their conference rather than the Labour one.

Are you aware of any incident, ever, whilst Labour were in power or not, where Conservative supporters disrupted their conference? Either with marches, invading rooms and shouting, or in any other manner?

And yet, I believe this happens at Tory conferences every year. I recall last year that eggs were thrown and people spat at delegates. If the love for Labour is to wane, I believe this is how it could happen: reasonable people realising how unreasonable and aggressive these militants are. Also of course, the economy may finally become much more healthy over the coming 4.5 years.

 

[martcov]

Are you aware of any incident, ever, whilst Labour were in power or not, where Conservative supporters disrupted their conference? Either with marches, invading rooms and shouting, or in any other manner?

And yet, I believe this happens at Tory conferences every year. I recall last year that eggs were thrown and people spat at delegates. If the love for Labour is to wane, I believe this is how it could happen: reasonable people realising how unreasonable and aggressive these militants are. Also of course, the economy may finally become much more healthy over the coming 4.5 years.

Is it likely to become much more healthy with the uncertainty caused by Brexit and a possible Tory coup led by someone like BoJo or Gove?

 

[Grendel]

Is it likely to become much more healthy with the uncertainty caused by Brexit and a possible Tory coup led by someone like BoJo or Gove?

It has zero to do with Brexit you clown.

 

[Sick Boy]

It has zero to do with Brexit you clown.

Oh come on.

 

[Johnnythespider]

I can remember John Prescott being egged and then giving the bloke a slap. It's us working class oiks, we just don't like constantly being told what's good for us. That's why sometimes we shout and holler and try to make people listen to how shit things are for some in society.

 

[Sick Boy]

There were protests outside the Labour conference the other week as well, I walked by them.