Does at walk on water - ??? (8 Viewers)

[Astute]

Juke was sold in the middle of January when CCFC were bottom of the table by seven points (effectively eight considering goal difference). He would have entered the final year of his contract come the summer and, with L1 status to boot, his value would have plummeted. All things considered, it was the right move to cash in on him now. The sale even gave AT a last roll of the dice with HH and AN (remember all the posts about "Did Juke hold us back?")

Had AT's side shown the slightest sign that they might be capable of fighting out of this mess, then keeping Juke would have been a worthwhile move; but we've been in the relegation zone since November and are the model of consistency.

AT might not have had King this season, but he did have Eastwood, McSheffrey, Jutkiewicz, Platt. No superstars among 'em, but I refuse to believe that a half-decent manager couldn't have squeezed a non-relegation number of goals out of that lot.

Good to cash in with Juke? So it gave us cash to spend? So a few people might have said Juke held us back. Most never. I most certainly never.

Eastwood, not done anything for any Cov manager, not just AT. Sheffers, doing a decent job now but his best days are gone. Lost a bit of his pace of old. Juke, 9 goals in half a season, shame he was the only player we had that could score goals. Platt, when has he ever been a goalscorer, when has he ever done well at this level?

 

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[BackRoomRummermill]

P10
W3
D5
L2
= 30% win ratio

PUSB

So still shite then

 

[Grendel]

P10
W3
D5
L2
= 30% win ratio

PUSB

Hey astute, brinner 30%. Sound familiar. Honeymoon wasn't even that great was it!

 

[Astute]

P10
W3
D5
L2
= 20% loss ratio. 80% of games not lost. Shows what difference that good players can make.

Statistic or damned lie?

 

[Grendel]

Nice politician answer. Avoided the stark statistic. Hey here's another one. How many away wins since at took over? Has the diamond been the jewel in the crown on our travels? Or is it just a piece of Gerard Ratner crap?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Good to cash in with Juke? So it gave us cash to spend?

Yes, good to cash in with Juke. People panicked over the prospect of Westwood leaving every transfer deadline...until he walked for nothing, and then people complained about that. Same thing is happening with Clingan now.

Hate SISU as much as you like, but the reality for most clubs is a need to wheel and deal. Selling Juke now was absolutely the right thing to do. Maybe if fans weren't so enamoured with 'The Godfather' and we'd changed to a more effective manager, then keeping Juke would have been seen as essential to a legitimate fight for survival. So be in no doubt about it - any desire to hold onto AT is absolutely linked with the loss of players like Juke.

Eastwood, not done anything for any Cov manager, not just AT. Sheffers, doing a decent job now but his best days are gone. Lost a bit of his pace of old. Juke, 9 goals in half a season, shame he was the only player we had that could score goals. Platt, when has he ever been a goalscorer, when has he ever done well at this level?

See, this is all just conjecture. I accept that Eastwood, Juke, McSheff and Platt may very well not be capable of scoring the goals under any manager, but I'm at least willing to try that change and see what happens. Look at McAllister's asset-stripped squad back in 2003 or so...he couldn't do anything with it, but then Black came in and applied electric shock therapy.

 

[Astute]

Nice politician answer. Avoided the stark statistic. Hey here's another one. How many away wins since at took over? Has the diamond been the jewel in the crown on our travels? Or is it just a piece of Gerard Ratner crap?

OK you are right. All AT's fault. Nothing to do with SISU selling all the players and not replacing them. Nothing to do with SISU giving contracts for the poorer players in our squad and not offering players in last year of their contracts a new one. Nothing to do with SISU feeding bullshit to us and most probably AT.

Duff for our next manager. You could do it better than AT, couldn't you Duff?

 

[wingy]

14 points from 30=about 63 points extrapolated over a season ,all without turner so room for improvement there ,Westwood missed for or five games but quirk never lost a match he played so no loss there ,Gunner and King deffo loss there ,and Carsely so mid table to playoff form should have been achievable this season with that squad ,we got what we've got ,and that represents Sisus ambition for our team and fans.

 

[Astute]

Yes, good to cash in with Juke. People panicked over the prospect of Westwood leaving every transfer deadline...until he walked for nothing, and then people complained about that. Same thing is happening with Clingan now.

Hate SISU as much as you like, but the reality for most clubs is a need to wheel and deal. Selling Juke now was absolutely the right thing to do. Maybe if fans weren't so enamoured with 'The Godfather' and we'd changed to a more effective manager, then keeping Juke would have been seen as essential to a legitimate fight for survival. So be in no doubt about it - any desire to hold onto AT is absolutely linked with the loss of players like Juke.



See, this is all just conjecture. I accept that Eastwood, Juke, McSheff and Platt may very not be capable of scoring the goals under any manager, but I'm at least willing to try that change and see what happens. Look at McAllister's asset-stripped squad back in 2003 or so...he couldn't do anything with it, but then Black came in and applied electric shock therapy.

Agree with most. And yes, most teams need to wheel and deal. Our problem is SISU have been wheeling but not dealing. Who do we have left to sell? The idea of wheeling and dealing is to buy cheap and sell at top. We sell cheap and not replace. This is not sustainable.

 

[Grendel]

OK you are right. All AT's fault. Nothing to do with SISU selling all the players and not replacing them. Nothing to do with SISU giving contracts for the poorer players in our squad and not offering players in last year of their contracts a new one. Nothing to do with SISU feeding bullshit to us and most probably AT.

Duff for our next manager. You could do it better than AT, couldn't you Duff?

Oh dear the sign of a defeated man. Well I couldn't do any worse technically as we are down. The main point is that a real qualified manager may have done better. Problem is people like you are so obsessed with boardroom antics any thought of influencing results on the field has become an irrelevance.

 

[BackRoomRummermill]

What i cannot understand and accept that we have the most uncapable manger of the squad in modern history............. and people defend him.

Listen when the whistle blows it has feck all to do with SISU , it also has feck all to do with SISU why we cannot protect a lead, This is most annoying bit, we have good enough players to get a lead and not a good enough tactician on the bench to protect it.

Go on someone say that is SISU fault I need a laugh

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Agree with most. And yes, most teams need to wheel and deal. Our problem is SISU have been wheeling but not dealing. Who do we have left to sell? The idea of wheeling and dealing is to buy cheap and sell at top. We sell cheap and not replace. This is not sustainable.

But we do replace. This season has seen Dunn, Murphy, Hreiderssan, McDonald, Nimely, Norwood, and Gardener brought in. The names might not wow you, but they are warm bodies, and they were probably about the best replacements we could get for what we lost. Westwood and King are special players, I doubt many sides would have been able to hold onto them; Murphy and McDonald are supposed to be Championship-standard replacements, Gardener is certainly supposed to have been better than Gunnarsson, and HH is that 'experienced head' so many want.

Are they top-drawer replacements? No, absolutely not. But they are more than nothing, and I continue to find it tough to believe that a decent manager couldn't extract more out of them. Either way we need to accept that unless we fill out that stadium every week, ie support the club, then this is the economics of CCFC. SISU can and should be blamed for many things, but we need to accept our financial reality and the fans' responsibility too. I doubt we'd be in this situation if we had 32k at every home game.

 

[CJparker]

Sorry but all I hear is "sack Thorn blah blah, sack Thorn blah blah blah, Sack Thorn blah...." STOP IT!!! Can all the AT haters just start up their own forum and keep each other happy and let everyone else get on wit supporting our team please.

The negativity of the fans is one of the reasons this club is in such trouble - we're struggling as a team, oh let's sack someone - that's always made things better hasn't it!!!!

 

[@richh87]

But AT insists he has the players to get out of this (his words not mine) - so are we saying he doesnt know what he is saying or that we dont understand as much as we think we do. Because if the squad is good enough for him then his results record is very poor by anyones standards irrespective of the excuses we find for it. Plenty of managers in the Football League have to work under just as tight budgets and have lost their jobs with better records than AT - somehow we seem to think we are the only team in the 3 divisions that has financial problems - it just is not so

Not like you to talk absolute crap OSB!

What is it - 10 1st team players gone inside 6/7 months; and those from a team that narrowly avoided a relegation scrap last year.

Also - why would you judge his squad by what he says?

Is he supposed to say that they're rubbish? How good would that be motivationally?

These kids need building up - they don't need to be told they're simply not good enough.

 

[DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe]

Fucking hell, don't you get tired of this?! A discussion about anything features a 'Thorn Out / Thorn has his hands tied' thread, does it need direct incarnation again? You could have paused and written a rather innocuous article about one of the blokes who tends the pitch at half time and it would have descended into this anyway.

'Thorn Out / Thorn can do no wrong' is too simplistic. I doubt very much anyone argues the latter and yet they are called to defend this stance. For those that do not wholly subscribe to the 'Thorn out' stance, I would imagine it is fair to say that Thorn is not the messiah. He can be questioned on tactics, experience, some interviews, substitutions... Does he get them all wrong? Probably not. Has he shown a markedly lower aptitude for any of the above than several of our previous managers... I would suggest not. Has he had less to play with than any of these managers... Almost certainly. Does it mean he can do no wrong... Absolutely not. Does it mean comparisons with them aren't strictly fair... Probably. Have SISU demonstrated their affinity with expenditure and proactiveness to sack him and employ another manager at any pace... Not as yet. Will they spend any money... No. Does the team and manager need your support... Yes. Do SISU... No.

Now, onto that groundsman...

 

[rob9872]

Fucking hell, don't you get tired of this?! A discussion about anything features a 'Thorn Out / Thorn has his hands tied' thread, does it need direct incarnation again? You could have paused and written a rather innocuous article about one of the blokes who tends the pitch at half time and it would have descended into this anyway.

Tbf if Thorn asked them to repair the goalmouth only at Murphy's end, we may have seen improved results. I blame Thorn (and SISU) Thorn out!

 

[Grendel]

These kids need building up - they don't need to be told they're simply not good enough.

What kids? Murphy, keogh, cranie, wood, clingan, platt, baker, mcsheffrey, deegan? Age of consent must be high in your world.

 

[johnniericoh]

Fucking hell, don't you get tired of this?! A discussion about anything features a 'Thorn Out / Thorn has his hands tied' thread, does it need direct incarnation again? You could have paused and written a rather innocuous article about one of the blokes who tends the pitch at half time and it would have descended into this anyway.

'Thorn Out / Thorn can do no wrong' is too simplistic. I doubt very much anyone argues the latter and yet they are called to defend this stance. For those that do not wholly subscribe to the 'Thorn out' stance, I would imagine it is fair to say that Thorn is not the messiah. He can be questioned on tactics, experience, some interviews, substitutions... Does he get them all wrong? Probably not. Has he shown a markedly lower aptitude for any of the above than several of our previous managers... I would suggest not. Has he had less to play with than any of these managers... Almost certainly. Does it mean he can do no wrong... Absolutely not. Does it mean comparisons with them aren't strictly fair... Probably. Have SISU demonstrated their affinity with expenditure and proactiveness to sack him and employ another manager at any pace... Not as yet. Will they spend any money... No. Does the team and manager need your support... Yes. Do SISU... No.

Now, onto that groundsman...[/QUOTE)

...............................................................................................................................................................

With 52 posts on this particular thread and some very lengthy and heartfelt responses the answer surely is yes people still want to state their point of view on this subject matter because that's what SBT is all about.

PUSB

 

[stupot07]

What kids? Murphy, keogh, cranie, wood, clingan, platt, baker, mcsheffrey, deegan? Age of consent must be high in your world.

Christie, Thomas, bigi, cameron, Clarke, Jeffers, ruffells, willis, Gardner, nimely, norwood, hussey, even Deegan is a novice in this league.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Sorry but all I hear is "sack Thorn blah blah, sack Thorn blah blah blah, Sack Thorn blah...." STOP IT!!! Can all the AT haters just start up their own forum and keep each other happy and let everyone else get on wit supporting our team please.

Really, it is the height of madness to post a message in a forum asking others to either stop posting or all hold the same opinion, ie stifle discussion.

And fwiw, those who you may disagree with believe that they are supporting the club with their views. Takes all sorts to make this world go around, y'know?

 

[mark82]

Christie, Thomas, bigi, cameron, Clarke, Jeffers, ruffells, willis, Gardner, nimely, norwood, hussey, even Deegan is a novice in this league.

Gardner?????????

 

[Grendel]

Sorry but all I hear is "sack Thorn blah blah, sack Thorn blah blah blah, Sack Thorn blah...." STOP IT!!! Can all the AT haters just start up their own forum and keep each other happy and let everyone else get on wit supporting our team please.

The negativity of the fans is one of the reasons this club is in such trouble - we're struggling as a team, oh let's sack someone - that's always made things better hasn't it!!!!

What a nonsense statement. Tell you what why don't all the AT supporters start their own forum? So some people disagree with you and your reaction is....go and disagree on another website.

Glad to see the supporters are to blame for our troubles. Not SISU, Thorn, the players etc. Hilarious.

 

[Astute]

Oh dear the sign of a defeated man. Well I couldn't do any worse technically as we are down. The main point is that a real qualified manager may have done better. Problem is people like you are so obsessed with boardroom antics any thought of influencing results on the field has become an irrelevance.

You got it in one there. May have done better. May have done worse also. We have not played as bad as our position says. We lack goalscorers. We have lost most games by one goal. Drawn games were level. If we would have had a goalscorer scoring goals then each goal would have been worth points. Goals win games. We lost all of them so no surprise we lack goals. Then you say get a real qualified manager in. Why are they not in work now? Did they fail at their last club? It is not as though anyone can come to us and bring in the players they want. They would be lucky to be able to bring in players they don't want.

 

[Astute]

What i cannot understand and accept that we have the most uncapable manger of the squad in modern history............. and people defend him.

Listen when the whistle blows it has feck all to do with SISU , it also has feck all to do with SISU why we cannot protect a lead, This is most annoying bit, we have good enough players to get a lead and not a good enough tactician on the bench to protect it.

Go on someone say that is SISU fault I need a laugh

Hello Mr SISU.

Don't worry. You keep getting rid of anyone that can score goals. Goals win games. It is not your fault we are doing so crap though because of this. We have a good enough team to not let goals in, even if other teams can bring subs on that would walk into our first team. Don't mean they have better players than us. It is the fault of AT. He should be a miracle worker and make goalscorers out of a sows ear.

Please stay Mr SISU. You are loved here

 

[Astute]

What kids? Murphy, keogh, cranie, wood, clingan, platt, baker, mcsheffrey, deegan? Age of consent must be high in your world.

Can't you make a team without putting youth players in and players you do not think are good enough? I blame AT

 

[Otis]

I do think people are being a tad harsh on Thorn here. He has had his hands tied behind his back and many restaints. He isn't to blame for all our woes.

He has got a degree of responisbility for our demise though and is culpable to some degree and has indeed cost us points. No getting away from that. Sisu by far and away shoulder a huge degree of the blame, but Thorn too has to put his hands up and accept that he does hold some culpability.

 

[stupot07]

Gardner?????????

Yeah I know he was only here for 4 games, only included him as CM said he was a better replacement for Gunnar in post 47.

 

[WillieStanley]

I think the issue lies in the fact that, although he has a working knowledge of the game, he is still learning. Unfortunately he hasn't got the luxury of a decent or a full squad to carry those mistakes. His captain has his own agenda and lacks leadership and his number two is part of the last two failing management regimes.

I think Thorn has some good ideas but, given the size of the task, has much to learn.

Although I'm not happy with our situation, I find it hard to get angry at Thorn.

 

[Otis]

Same here.

 

[DiveDiveWhereverYouMayBe]

I do think people are being a tad harsh on Thorn here. He has had his hands tied behind his back and many restaints. He isn't to blame for all our woes.

He has got a degree of responisbility for our demise though and is culpable to some degree and has indeed cost us points. No getting away from that. Sisu by far and away shoulder a huge degree of the blame, but Thorn too has to put his hands up and accept that he does hold some culpability.

This.

People who don't necessarily subscribe to 'Thorn Out' often think this. He is not blameless, he is not invincible and people should really choose which accusations to throw at him and at the people who support him. Like anything in life, look at his performance in context and this cyclical debate might be a shade more constructive. We're not so different, kids...

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But AT insists he has the players to get out of this (his words not mine) - so are we saying he doesnt know what he is saying or that we dont understand as much as we think we do. Because if the squad is good enough for him then his results record is very poor by anyones standards irrespective of the excuses we find for it. Plenty of managers in the Football League have to work under just as tight budgets and have lost their jobs with better records than AT - somehow we seem to think we are the only team in the 3 divisions that has financial problems - it just is not so

I think you need to take his quotes like that with a pinch of salt. He knows that the players he has are the ones he's stuck with-if he comes out saying 'These guys aren't good enough, they're too crap to get us out this situation', or words to that effect, he'll lose the backing of the squad, making his job twice as difficult. It's very clear that he's just putting a brave face on a pretty desperate situation-we could all see Murphy was horrendously at fault for that first goal last week; but does AT make much mention of it? No, because he can't afford to leave more players hanging out to dry.

 

[Otis]

Think he's learnt his lesson somewhat, because earlier in the season he let rip into Bigi and most of us thought that was well out of order. Since then he has rather tempered his thoughts and shown some restraint.

 

[WillieStanley]

There was that infamous SB Player leak about strikers and banjos too!

 

[Houchens Head]

Well??? Does he indeed walk on water?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I did say on my first post on this thread that I was being argumentative guys.

Personally I dont blame AT for all the ills and misfortunes at CCFC - I never have. I have always said he is part of the problem just as much as part of the solution however. Without doubt he has been found wanting at times but it isnt all the time. He has shown his lack of managerial experience and understanding (lack of qualifications) a little too often for my liking but that isnt in my eyes unexpected. Even end of last season I was saying his lack of experience could catch us out and sometimes it has - too often it has in my opinion.

Do I actually believe all he says - no but then again I do not believe anything emanating from CCFC at face value. By nature and my own professional training I question everything but particularly at CCFC. Nor do i believe that statistics tell the whole story, I deal with figures every day and understand better than most that you can make them say what you want them to - its all in the presentation and interpretation. To be clear I read very carefully what AT has said, knew the concerns about strikers (glossed over it - well i was being argumentative wasnt i )- but equally because of the speed and depth on the pitch we play the game we make it very difficult for our strikers (Marlon King or not)

AT needs to say some of the things in order to bolster fragile confidence - but equally i can understand those fans who hear the same old things and think not again not more words no action. Doesnt make him wrong to say the things or anyone here questionning the pearls of wisdom wrong either. Its all about opinions afterall - far too much here is marked as FACT when the only fact is that it is someones opinion

AT is a decent fella who hasnt got the experience to deal with the situation he finds himself in - He took the job never expecting to be in this position he was confident things would go well when in fact things have gone poorly with little luck. He took the job knowing that there would be player wheeling and dealing (he made his living previously scouting so he knows what goes on) - but i dont think he expected things to be so bad financially and to be unable to keep or bring in players. He didnt expect to be sold short by the senior players or by the board but he has been. He didnt expect so many players to be injured, unfit, poor in attitude within such a small squad. He has been let down by others big time but in my opinion he didnt have the skills in the first place necessary to get us through this season in safety and only got the job as a cheap fan pleasing option - get what you pay for.

Do I blame only AT for our likely relegation or this disaster of a season - no ...... he is but part of the problem, there are many other reasons that will contribute as much if not more (and I dont mean just SISU). AT is here until at least the summer, I cannot see any change being made now with 16 games left, no money and negotiations apparently going on. I started a thread a while back saying that SISU were letting the club find its own level whilst they sorted the finances, seems to me that is what is happening - sadly it is league 1