Oh Jeremy Corbyn (2 Viewers)

[Deleted member 5849]

Momentum have made it too much about the individual and not enough about the ideas and the policy substance. If someone like Clive Lewis were less green and rough around the edges they'd be ideal. Main concern I've got is Momentum will stifle even that.

I disagree. It was all about the policy early on, and the manifesto was the only one that actually outlined a positive constructive vision (whether you agree with said vision or not). However, the constant personal attacks push it into becoming a cult of the personality, either for or against.

Now if only those attacking the personality put as much effort into formulating some policy detail, then there might be hope in having a number of constructive alternatives in how to move forwards.

If only...

 

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[oakey]

Not sure I buy this 'constant media attacks' on Corbyn boo boo, line.
Firstly, every Labour leader gets ripped apart by the RW rags like the Mail, Sun and Express. Ed and in the early days TB got vicious stick.
Secondly, Corbyn has given his critics a hell of a lot of rope to hang him with. He has been an apologist for many perceived enemies of Britain and he is against every war, including the Falklands, so if he is right sometimes that's the nature of the beast, some wars prove to be successful others don't.
Of course if Britain had not got involved in recent wars in the Middle East and Afghanistan we can only speculate on whether things would be better or worse. It is for historians in 50 years time to deduce whether any of these wars were wise or successful. Too early to tell IMO. Even the Iraq war.
Oh, and if Ed Miliband was still leader he would likely have come up with a similar, or better, manifesto than Corbyn did. Corbyn is not particularly innovative and he doesn't have the character or principles to make a good PM IMO. He is too much of the hard left, which is a cess pit of infighting.
I look forward to the day when Labour is a broadly centre left party again. I don't mean Blairite. I mean the party of Foot, Castle and John Smith. These people had no time for the likes of Corbyn.

 

[Ian1779]

Accepting monetary donations from such questionable individuals would surely make you an apologist by proxy?

 

[oakey]

Accepting monetary donations from such questionable individuals would surely make you an apologist by proxy?

I never have so I'm in the clear.

 

[clint van damme]

Secondly, Corbyn has given his critics a hell of a lot of rope to hang him with. He has been an apologist for many perceived enemies of Britain and he is against every war, including the Falklands, so if he is right sometimes that's the nature of the beast, some wars prove to be successful others don't.
QUOTE]

so if he's given the media a hell of a lot of rope to hang him why do they have to keep making things up? Shouldn't be a need surely?

 

[oakey]

Media makes up stuff because that's what the media does. They cannot help themselves, although they are usually spinning a real event into something it is not. I think they are doing JC a favour actually. Keeps him in the public eye (when his actual pronouncements and questions in parliament are so mediocre) so undecideds are aware of him but few people are taking any notice of the substance of the stick he is getting, most of which he deserves IMO.
I have been Labour all my life but this is the party's lowest ebb. After Miliband failed he is a backward step.

 

[clint van damme]

Media makes up stuff because that's what the media does. They cannot help themselves, although they are usually spinning a real event into something it is not. I think they are doing JC a favour actually. Keeps him in the public eye (when his actual pronouncements and questions in parliament are so mediocre) so undecideds are aware of him but few people are taking any notice of the substance of the stick he is getting, most of which he deserves IMO.
I have been Labour all my life but this is the party's lowest ebb. After Miliband failed he is a backward step.

"I have been Labour all my life"
Don't believe that for one minute. No Labour supporter, no matter what their opinion of Corbyn would give the right wing press a pass as you just have.

 

[oakey]

It makes no difference whether you believe it or not.
I have voted Labour in every election since 1978. I was a member as a student. I have canvassed for Labour as recently as 2015. A member of my family works for a Labour MP.
You need to remove your blinkers and realise that Labour is a broad church. It has not belonged to the hard left until now. I give all the print media a 'free pass' as you call it because I expect nothing better. It doesn't make me right wing or reactionary. It makes me a realist.

As it happens I don't think it is acceptable to call anyone a liar.

I would not vote for any other party. I would abstain or spoil my ballot paper.

 

[clint van damme]

It makes no difference whether you believe it or not.
I have voted Labour in every election since 1978. I was a member as a student. I have canvassed for Labour as recently as 2015. A member of my family works for a Labour MP.
You need to remove your blinkers and realise that Labour is a broad church. It has not belonged to the hard left until now. I give all the print media a 'free pass' as you call it because I expect nothing better. It doesn't make me right wing or reactionary. It makes me a realist.

As it happens I don't think it is acceptable to call anyone a liar.

I would not vote for any other party. I would abstain or spoil my ballot paper.

you're right it makes no difference whether I believe you or not but I still don't believe you.
I don't have blinkers on, that's why I accept that there are Labour people who don't like Corbyn, but no self respecting Labour person from any faction of the party defends the press. To do so doesn't make you a realist at all, what you are saying is if something consistently happens, no matter how bad, just accept it, that's nonsense.

 

[oakey]

I don't defend the press. Much of it is disgraceful. The alternative to accepting the press is censorship unless you have other ideas?
A hallmark of extremists. In a free society we are stuck with the press. Labour people I know realise they have to get their message through the fog of disinformation. All Labour leaders get this stick as I said.
I hoped you would offer an apology but never mind.

 

[clint van damme]

I don't defend the press. Much of it is disgraceful. The alternative to accepting the press is censorship unless you have other ideas?
A hallmark of extremists. In a free society we are stuck with the press. Labour people I know realise they have to get their message through the fog of disinformation. All Labour leaders get this stick as I said.
I hoped you would offer an apology but never mind.

I want a free press, I also want a responsible press that tells the truth, there has to be a middle ground between the disgraceful, agenda driven bullshit we have now and censorship.
I would have thought most people would want that, particularly Labour supporters.

I would make it law that any retraction printed by a newspaper would have to be given the same column inches as the original story and on the same page.

 

[Ian1779]

It makes no difference whether you believe it or not.
I have voted Labour in every election since 1978. I was a member as a student. I have canvassed for Labour as recently as 2015. A member of my family works for a Labour MP.
You need to remove your blinkers and realise that Labour is a broad church. It has not belonged to the hard left until now.

I'd love to know what policies you think have made Labour hard-left. Would it be wanting to adequately fund the NHS or the education system? Or maybe trying to solve the housing problem or the homelessness issue?

 

[rondog1973]

I don't defend the press. Much of it is disgraceful. The alternative to accepting the press is censorship unless you have other ideas?
A hallmark of extremists. In a free society we are stuck with the press. Labour people I know realise they have to get their message through the fog of disinformation. All Labour leaders get this stick as I said.
I hoped you would offer an apology but never mind.

Would say it was the press who have dubbed the current Labour leadership hard left (mainstream left wing in any other European country).

Seems the press are influencing you without you realising it....

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest but have tried to keep out of it until now. What I'm seeing here though is a stark resemblance of the Brexit thread, and actually that goes further than SBT, because I hear the same things on the street too often as well.

What I am seeing is pages upon pages of (some, not all) Corbyn supporters doing exactly what a lot of remain voters (some, not all) have been doing:

1) Refusing to criticise their choice (Corbyn in this case) for absolutely anything at all. There is this constant notion that he is somehow perfect.
2) Blaming other people or parties for any negatives associated to point 1. He can't possibly have done anything wrong.
3) Refusing to believe anyone who tries at least to be impartial if they don't agree with your opinion.
4) Taking any valid point, refusing to acknowledge or debate it, but then say 'well, what about...' to point the finger in another direction.


It's ridiculous and a bigger part of the reason why the referendum and the election went the way they did. If you cannot have an open and honest debate then division is born and people will vote against you. They feel pushed away or in some circumstances even bullied. I personally am able to see things from both sides and try to debate as honestly as I can even if I do lean to one side. There is no doubt that the above behaviours have pushed me further and further away from the ideologies that are being preached, and there are many, many people that feel like me.

This will probably be met with a barrage of abuse, but to be honest that's expected these days anyway.

 

[oakey]

To answer points made to me.
Hard left is the term I am familiar with from the 80s days of Militant Tendency etc. I know them when I see them.
Two areas I don't agree with JC
1. I have fe.w issues with Corbyn's domestic policies. I take issue with
Foreign policies - anti Nato, anti nuclear deterrent, anti Western alliance.
2. The behaviour of his supporters which he colludes with ...the bullies in Momentum calling everyone else Warmongers, red tories, Blairites. Their attempts to smear those who dissent. The Unite bullies who kicked out the guy who stood against Len.

Secondly, my views do not come from, or are influenced by, the media any more than yours do.

 

[clint van damme]

I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest but have tried to keep out of it until now. What I'm seeing here though is a stark resemblance of the Brexit thread, and actually that goes further than SBT, because I hear the same things on the street too often as well.

What I am seeing is pages upon pages of (some, not all) Corbyn supporters doing exactly what a lot of remain voters (some, not all) have been doing:

1) Refusing to criticise their choice (Corbyn in this case) for absolutely anything at all. There is this constant notion that he is somehow perfect.
2) Blaming other people or parties for any negatives associated to point 1. He can't possibly have done anything wrong.
3) Refusing to believe anyone who tries at least to be impartial if they don't agree with your opinion.
4) Taking any valid point, refusing to acknowledge or debate it, but then say 'well, what about...' to point the finger in another direction.


It's ridiculous and a bigger part of the reason why the referendum and the election went the way they did. If you cannot have an open and honest debate then division is born and people will vote against you. They feel pushed away or in some circumstances even bullied. I personally am able to see things from both sides and try to debate as honestly as I can even if I do lean to one side. There is no doubt that the above behaviours have pushed me further and further away from the ideologies that are being preached, and there are many, many people that feel like me.

This will probably be met with a barrage of abuse, but to be honest that's expected these days anyway.

you spout some shite but that tops the lot. Pretty much everything in that post is absolute bollocks.
I can guarantee that I can find post by all the people who in the main defend Corbyn criticising him over certain issues, I certainly have, in particular on his stance over Europe.
i can also guarantee that you will find very little criticism from the so called I'm a labour voter but hate Corbyn brigade of the tories which is very strange considering just how bad this government is.

The fact we have a thread on Corbyn but none on theresa or boris tells you everything about which way the bias lies.

And for someone who uses the word snowflake to describe what goes on on this board as bullying is beyond irony.
And if you think it's healthy for the press to print lies about someone then you'll soon end up with the country you deserve.
I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone even boris, especially when he blunders on a daily basis, no need for bullshit, try and stick to facts.

 

[clint van damme]

To answer points made to me.
Hard left is the term I am familiar with from the 80s days of Militant Tendency etc. I know them when I see them.
Two areas I don't agree with JC
1. I have fe.w issues with Corbyn's domestic policies. I take issue with
Foreign policies - anti Nato, anti nuclear deterrent, anti Western alliance.
2. The behaviour of his supporters which he colludes with ...the bullies in Momentum calling everyone else Warmongers, red tories, Blairites. Their attempts to smear those who dissent. The Unite bullies who kicked out the guy who stood against Len.

Secondly, my views do not come from, or are influenced by, the media any more than yours do.

so are you saying Gerard Coyne was right to misuse Unite members private data, (including mine I may add)?
I think I've still got his fraudulent e-mail somewhere. I was seriously considering voting for him up until that point.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

you spout some shite but that tops the lot. Pretty much everything in that post is absolute bollocks.
I can guarantee that I can find post by all the people who in the main defend Corbyn criticising him over certain issues, I certainly have, in particular on his stance over Europe.
i can also guarantee that you will find very little criticism from the so called I'm a labour voter but hate Corbyn brigade of the tories which is very strange considering just how bad this government is.

The fact we have a thread on Corbyn but none on theresa or boris tells you everything about which way the bias lies.

And for someone who uses the word snowflake to describe what goes on on this board as bullying is beyond irony.
And if you think it's healthy for the press to print lies about someone then you'll soon end up with the country you deserve.
I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone even boris, especially when he blunders on a daily basis, no need for bullshit, try and stick to facts.

You bit the hardest because a lot of my post is very relatable to your behaviour and you don't like it.

 

[clint van damme]

You bit the hardest because a lot of my post is very relatable to your behaviour and you don't like it.

it's nonsense and I've given you my reasons. I'm not sure what I'm supposed not to like, I'll respond to your posts but I really couldn't give a fuck to be honest. And I'd be surprised if you didn't say the same thing about my posts.
The person who frequently uses the term snowflake getting upset by posts on a message board, deary me.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

it's nonsense and I've given you my reasons. I'm not sure what I'm supposed not to like, I'll respond to your posts but I really couldn't give a fuck to be honest. And I'd be surprised if you didn't say the same thing about my posts.
The person who frequently uses the term snowflake getting upset by posts on a message board, deary me.

The term snowflake was a joke, but you're so desperate to try and claw back some dignity you are trying to use it against me.

As someone who has been on the losing side of the last election and the referendum, perhaps you should listen to what I'm saying. You might just learn something.

 

[clint van damme]

The term snowflake was a joke, but you're so desperate to try and claw back some dignity you are trying to use it against me.

As someone who has been on the losing side of the last election and the referendum, perhaps you should listen to what I'm saying. You might just learn something.

My dignity hasn't crossed my mind, very strange comment. Been on the losing side in the referendum and the election means nothing. I voted for what I believed, more people voted the other way, so be it. It's a fairly ridiculous comment to be honest.
It may have escaped your notice but this is a Coventry City forum, been on the losing side is something most on here are hardened to.
You've constantly used the term snowflake and your agenda is quite obvious, you want the right to offend but aren't so keen on being offended.
The only thing I've learned from you is never form you opinion of a situation based on your mate on Whatsapp.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

My dignity hasn't crossed my mind, very strange comment. Been on the losing side in the referendum and the election means nothing. I voted for what I believed, more people voted the other way, so be it. It's a fairly ridiculous comment to be honest.
It may have escaped your notice but this is a Coventry City forum, been on the losing side is something most on here are hardened to.
You've constantly used the term snowflake and your agenda is quite obvious, you want the right to offend but aren't so keen on being offended.
The only thing I've learned from you is never form you opinion of a situation based on your mate on Whatsapp.

There is no point in having a mind if you're never going to listen to others and therefore open it.

Look at Brexit, it would never have happened if the people in the EU, the government, or the remain voters who lacked any mutual respect had actually listened to others and debated with them honestly and openly. You're behaving like an accessory to that.

If you want Corbyn to get into power one day then some things are going to have to change in order for that to happen. Look at the rest of Europe, the left is starting to get booted out or losing seats in a lot of places. A big part of the reason for that is the list I posted above.

 

[SBAndy]

As someone who has been on the losing side of the last election and the referendum, perhaps you should listen to what I'm saying. You might just learn something.

Fucking mind boggling. Although I'm sure Ipsos Mori could do with your crystal ball. Means nothing that you've ended up on the winning side. People have opinions, politics is about opinion, you don't get extra points because you guessed right. And that's coming from someone who wasn't on the 'losing side' in both votes before you try using that as a stick to beat me with.

 

[martcov]

I've been watching this thread with a lot of interest but have tried to keep out of it until now. What I'm seeing here though is a stark resemblance of the Brexit thread, and actually that goes further than SBT, because I hear the same things on the street too often as well.

What I am seeing is pages upon pages of (some, not all) Corbyn supporters doing exactly what a lot of remain voters (some, not all) have been doing:

1) Refusing to criticise their choice (Corbyn in this case) for absolutely anything at all. There is this constant notion that he is somehow perfect.
2) Blaming other people or parties for any negatives associated to point 1. He can't possibly have done anything wrong.
3) Refusing to believe anyone who tries at least to be impartial if they don't agree with your opinion.
4) Taking any valid point, refusing to acknowledge or debate it, but then say 'well, what about...' to point the finger in another direction.


It's ridiculous and a bigger part of the reason why the referendum and the election went the way they did. If you cannot have an open and honest debate then division is born and people will vote against you. They feel pushed away or in some circumstances even bullied. I personally am able to see things from both sides and try to debate as honestly as I can even if I do lean to one side. There is no doubt that the above behaviours have pushed me further and further away from the ideologies that are being preached, and there are many, many people that feel like me.

This will probably be met with a barrage of abuse, but to be honest that's expected these days anyway.

I think you read too much Fria Taden and Breitbart and watch Tommy Robinson and Infowars.

Have you seen the report on Cambridge Analytics, which is used by ex Goldman Sachs heroes of the right, Bannon and the orange criminal, Trump? It is all about feeding you with false information to make you angry. It's working. Are these the people you quote ( as you have in the past ) as being the ones trying at least to be impartial?

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Fucking mind boggling. Although I'm sure Ipsos Mori could do with your crystal ball. Means nothing that you've ended up on the winning side. People have opinions, politics is about opinion, you don't get extra points because you guessed right. And that's coming from someone who wasn't on the 'losing side' in both votes before you try using that as a stick to beat me with.

I couldn't give a flying fuck who anyone votes for as long as they vote to be honest.

My point still stands. If you have no respect for anyone, cry when you lose. Refuse to debate openly and honestly, then people will vote against you.

There's nothing mind boggling about that whatsoever.

 

[clint van damme]

There is no point in having a mind if you're never going to listen to others and therefore open it.

Look at Brexit, it would never have happened if the people in the EU, the government, or the remain voters who lacked any mutual respect had actually listened to others and debated with them honestly and openly. You're behaving like an accessory to that.

If you want Corbyn to get into power one day then some things are going to have to change in order for that to happen. Look at the rest of Europe, the left is starting to get booted out or losing seats in a lot of places. A big part of the reason for that is the list I posted above.

I can guarantee you I listen to all sorts of people I disagree with so my mind is open. You should try it.

And as I always said, my remain vote was based more on my 100% conviction that this government would make a complete arse of taking us out. That opinion gets reinforced every day.

On the things that matter to me Corbyn has been right as far as I'm concerned, Iraq, PFI, nationalisation, austerity, he's let me down on his wishy washy approach to Europe but you can't have everything.
(By the way, I'm a massive Christopher Hitchens fan but disagree with him on Iraq).
Your theory that anything anti Corbyn sends the board into melt down is frankly nonsense.
Look at how many posts there are about boris's £160,000 tennis match and the £800,000 donations from the oligarchs to the toriesin the light of Salisbury.
Now be honest and think how many there would have been if it had bee Labour or if Emily Thornberry had made the remarks about the world cup Boris made.

 

[clint van damme]

I couldn't give a flying fuck who anyone votes for as long as they vote to be honest.

My point still stands. If you have no respect for anyone, cry when you lose. Refuse to debate openly and honestly, then people will vote against you.

There's nothing mind boggling about that whatsoever.

In which case you're contradicting yourself by bringing up about me being on the losing side. I vote for what I believe, and if that's Green or Lib dem then i'll do it.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

I think you read too much Fria Taden and Breitbart and watch Tommy Robinson and Infowars.

Have you seen the report on Cambridge Analytics, which is used by ex Goldman Sachs heroes of the right, Bannon and the orange criminal, Trump? It is all about feeding you with false information to make you angry. It's working. Are these the people you quote ( as you have in the past ) as being the ones trying at least to be impartial?

Again, if you're not prepared to listen to people, you will keep losing.

I don't get my opinions from Breitbart (for the 100th time), I get my opinions from travelling around a lot and seeing things first hand. If you continue to refuse to accept there are things wrong with your ideologies then you'll get ignored and people will vote against you.

 

[martcov]

Again, if you're not prepared to listen to people, you will keep losing.

I don't get my opinions from Breitbart (for the 100th time), I get my opinions from travelling around a lot and seeing things first hand. If you continue to refuse to accept there are things wrong with your ideologies then you'll get ignored and people will vote against you.

I travel around, mainly Germany now, and am constantly talking to all sorts of people. It's part of my job to chat to people. I don't have an ideology in the broad sense and I don't know who would vote for me or against me as the situation has never arisen. I am not a Corbyn or labour fan. The present Conservative government is the worst government I can recall, as regards lack of vision and lack of general knowledge or lack of regard for the mess they have got the UK into. Even Corbyn would be better, although I wish there was a younger Labour politician who had ideas to stop or mitigate Brexit. Corbyn belongs to 70s left politics in the same way as Farge on the right.

I certainly wouldn't base my ideologies on whether people would ignore me or not agree with me. Just because Brexit and the present Tory party fit your views, doesn't mean your views are right and it doesn't mean that the present sentiment will remain. If Brexit goes pear shaped, or we end up virtually the same as before, but without a say, I think your 'side' will start to realise that they have been played, if not by Cambridge Analytics itself, then by the same tactics of lies ( and you do read Breitbart, Fria Taden etc. ) to make people angry at the EU, which wasn't the case for years, and think that Brexit is the solution, then things could soon change to resentment. I hope I see the day that Farage is held to account for what he and his cronies started.

 

[clint van damme]

Corbyn sacks Smith, civil war about to break out!
A ploy by Smith, he's a snake. Though he's a remainer so I think he was quite entitled to say what he said.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I hope I see the day that Farage is held to account for what he and his cronies started.

Well I hope I don't, because that will mean what I fear will happen... will happen.

Notwithstanding that he won't of course, and nor would Johnson and the like. Instead, May will carry the can. Unlike you I'm a bit more sympathetic towards her. She's shown herself no leader, but she's hamstrung by a position in parliament where she has to balance everybody, and please everybody, or the government falls - that doesn't help. She's actually the form of Conservatism I can tolerate, if not like, but alas the extreme right tail is wagging the dog... yet it won#

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Corbyn sacks Smith, civil war about to break out!
A ploy by Smith, he's a snake. Though he's a remainer so I think he was quite entitled to say what he said.

I repeat the view that if we get the deal we were promised, there'll be no issue with a second referendum anyway, and I'd happily vote for the milk and honey deal we've been promised when it materialises!

I don't understand the fear of calling for a second referendum. I also don't understand why he's been sacked for calling for one, seems an amazingly stupid move.

 

[clint van damme]

I repeat the view that if we get the deal we were promised, there'll be no issue with a second referendum anyway, and I'd happily vote for the milk and honey deal we've been promised when it materialises!

I don't understand the fear of calling for a second referendum. I also don't understand why he's been sacked for calling for one, seems an amazingly stupid move.

I think he was calling for a vote on the deal rather than a second referendum. I agree with you but can't tolerate Smith so my sympathy is limited.
Expect another leadership contest and i think it will be closer than last time.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think he was calling for a vote on the deal rather than a second referendum. I agree with you but can't tolerate Smith so my sympathy is limited.
Expect another leadership contest and i think it will be closer than last time.

BBC claim referendum: Jeremy Corbyn sacks Labour frontbencher

I disagree with the latter point too. A good general election result, and barring a calamity, the local election results should see massive gains for Labour too. In fact if they don't given the circumstances... Corbyn probably *should* go!

 

[Grendel]

I repeat the view that if we get the deal we were promised, there'll be no issue with a second referendum anyway, and I'd happily vote for the milk and honey deal we've been promised when it materialises!

I don't understand the fear of calling for a second referendum. I also don't understand why he's been sacked for calling for one, seems an amazingly stupid move.

We weren’t offered one vote on Maastricht. Owen is a sly obnoxious fucker. For once Corbyn got it right.

Shame those intelligent youth who voted to stay in the EU also er voted for old Jeremy in the leadership election.

Such intellect.