Spy Poisoning (20 Viewers)

[Nick]

How do they tell where poison is made?

If I was going to Poison somebody and was Russian I wouldn't fill it with homemade Russian ingredients.

 

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[Otis]

How do they tell where poison is made?

If I was going to Poison somebody and was Russian I wouldn't fill it with homemade Russian ingredients.

That's exactly what the Russians are saying.

But maybe Putin is so arrogant he believes he can just do whatever he wants and there's no-one who can stop him.

 

[Grendel]

Statement today hasn't offered any proof.

Why are you asking me what the proof should be? Neither of us is an expert in nerve agents or chemical weapons.

The authorities must know what delivers the burden of proof. Seemingly we do not have it.

I am sure it WAS the Russians, but we are dealing with a major global power here.

They are laughing at us and the 'highly likely' comment and are coming back with 'It's highly Boris Johnson is an idiot' kind of stuff.

The statement today has not provided any proof and has left the waters muddy. Our government was expecting some definitive proof from this. They haven't got it.

Who cares if they are laughing - they are liars and murderers - Putin is laughing as he can spoof people like you are

 

[Grendel]

„Russia’s embassy in London responded that Porton Down’s assessment “proves that all political declarations on the Russian origin of the crime are nothing but assumptions not stemming from objective facts or the course of the investigation”.“

An answer to this Russian statement would be a start. I hope we have the answers. That is the opposite of hating Britain. I hope our government does know what it is doing. I don’t want the UK ending up alone.

Russians deserve no answers - I hope we have the answers? Are you for real - what a horrible little man you are - you would spread your legs for Putin if it meant points scored in your mad Brexit conspiracy world.

 

[Grendel]

That's exactly what the Russians are saying.

But maybe Putin is so arrogant he believes he can just do whatever he wants and there's no-one who can stop him.

The Russia s today are saying we did it. Did we?

 

[martcov]

How do they tell where poison is made?

If I was going to Poison somebody and was Russian I wouldn't fill it with homemade Russian ingredients.

Yes, well that is a possible explanation as the scientist that I heard said they can pinpoint the origin of the potassium element, and now another scientist says they cannot prove that it came from Russia. It means we have to have something else conclusive. Difficult if we don’t want to give some sources away.

 

[Otis]

Who cares if they are laughing - they are liars and murderers - Putin is laughing as he can spoof people like you are

What on earth are you babbling on about?

I am not fooled by it at all and make no apologies. I have had some very heated debates about this with my wife.

I am totally convinced the Russians did it and that it came from the Kremlin and that Putin had full knowledge of it. Been arguing that with the wife now for 4 whole weeks.

What the hell has that got to do with proving it?

You are making absolutely zero sense.

 

[covmark]

What on earth are you babbling on about?

I am not fooled by it at all and make no apologies. I have had some very heated debates about this with my wife.

I am totally convinced the Russians did it and that it came from the Kremlin and that Putin had full knowledge of it. Been arguing that with the wife now for 4 whole weeks.

What the hell has that got to do with proving it?

You are making absolutely zero sense.

Fuck me. I argue about decent coffee with my Mrs and that's bad enough.
Good luck to you my friend.

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[martcov]

Russians deserve no answers - I hope we have the answers? Are you for real - what a horrible little man you are - you would spread your legs for Putin if it meant points scored in your mad Brexit conspiracy world.

Of course they deserve answers. We have accused them and punished them. Even if they did it, which I agree is most likely, we still have to put something on the table. It would have been great if it were proven that the ingredients were indeed Russian. Now our scientists are saying they cannot prove it conclusively.

My mad Brexit conspiracy is that we were lied to and didn’t anticipate what is happening and what could potentially happen.

This is totally different to Brexit, but we are in a similar position of not knowing what is going on, or where this can lead to.

 

[Otis]

Fuck me. I argue about decent coffee with my Mrs and that's bad enough.
Good luck to you my friend.

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She is in love with Putin. He can do no wrong in her eyes. I see him as an odious, corrupt and very dangerous man.

Have stopped arguing the toss with her now on it. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I simply want conclusive proof and if we have it we should say 'Russia ARE responsible,' or There is no doubt that Russians carried out this attack.'

'Highly likely' would be laughed out of court in a trial and that is why I used that analogy.

When we talked of the WMD we said Saddam DID have WMD.

I do think this statement today doesn't make anything clearer.

 

[Grendel]

What on earth are you babbling on about?

I am not fooled by it at all and make no apologies. I have had some very heated debates about this with my wife.

I am totally convinced the Russians did it and that it came from the Kremlin and that Putin had full knowledge of it. Been arguing that with the wife now for 4 whole weeks.

What the hell has that got to do with proving it?

You are making absolutely zero sense.

No you aren’t as I’ve asked 5 times what you would define as proof and you are incapable of articulating a response.

 

[Grendel]

Of course they deserve answers. We have accused them and punished them. Even if they did it, which I agree is most likely, we still have to put something on the table. It would have been great if it were proven that the ingredients were indeed Russian. Now our scientists are saying they cannot prove it conclusively.

My mad Brexit conspiracy is that we were lied to and didn’t anticipate what is happening and what could potentially happen.

This is totally different to Brexit, but we are in a similar position of not knowing what is going on, or where this can lead to.

We don’t have to do anything - soon some other group will no doubt say they did it - mr Putin has no weapons of course he said so

 

[covmark]

She is in love with Putin. He can do no wrong in her eyes. I see him as an odious, corrupt and very dangerous man.

Have stopped arguing the toss with her now on it. It's like talking to a brick wall.

I simply want conclusive proof and if we have it we should say 'Russia ARE responsible,' or There is no doubt that Russians carried out this attack.'

'Highly likely' would be laughed out of court in a trial and that is why I used that analogy.

When we talked of the WMD we said Saddam DID have WMD.

I do think this statement today doesn't make anything clearer.

Tbf even if we have conclusive proof what does it matter to Putin?
Fuck all because the Russians believe what Putin wants them to believe.

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[martcov]

We don’t have to do anything - soon some other group will no doubt say they did it - mr Putin has no weapons of course he said so

It’s the other way round. Putin only has to say „prove it“. We made the accusation and it’s up to us to say why and offer proof. You should work for the tax office.

 

[martcov]

Tbf even if we have conclusive proof what does it matter to Putin?
Fuck all because the Russians believe what Putin wants them to believe.

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It matters to our government and the people that support us and/ or are opposed to Russian dirty tricks.

 

[covmark]

It matters to our government and the people that support us and/ or are opposed to Russian dirty tricks.

So you think our allies have taken the word of May and batty Boris, and they have no intelligence of their own regarding Russia?

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[SkyblueBazza]

My mad Brexit conspiracy is that we were lied to and didn’t anticipate what is happening and what could potentially happen.

But you come across as being convinced you are so absolutely right on Brexit...like you know for fact what will happen!

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[SkyblueBazza]

In terms of motive...it does suit the Russians to have a united solidarity to oppose them in Europe...maybe this is designed for that. They have demonstrated they are capable of grabbing old territories when they need to. Maybe there is internal pressure to continue the advance - but Putin knows that venturing much further than he has already would actually mean provoking the West too much...& potentially get an 'in your face' military response.
Russia doesn't really want that, nor indeed to rule the world...just like the US & China. Its good to have an enemy at the door, keeps the economy turning over nicely.

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[martcov]

So you think our allies have taken the word of May and batty Boris, and they have no intelligence of their own regarding Russia?

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I have no idea what we have, but your argument is the same as mine was before Iraq.

It would make things a lot easier if we put something on the table and stop relying on „highly likely“.

 

[martcov]

But you come across as being convinced you are so absolutely right on Brexit...like you know for fact what will happen!

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Yes that’s why I wrote „could potentially happen“.

 

[wingy]

So you think our allies have taken the word of May and batty Boris, and they have no intelligence of their own regarding Russia?

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Who knows, but have a read of the transcript of the High Court aoplication to take Blood from the victims.
The Portland Down specialist describes it as a 'Novichock like nerve agent or something Closely related '.
I think that was around the 21st-22nd of March, Boris was quoted in a German publication stating PD had told him unequivically it was Novichock.

 

[dutchman]

Who knows, but have a read of the transcript of the High Court aoplication to take Blood from the victims.
The Portland Down specialist describes it as a 'Novichock like nerve agent or something Closely related '.
I think that was around the 21st-22nd of March, Boris was quoted in a German publication stating PD had told him unequivically it was Novichock.

So if I shoot someone with a Kalashnikov rifle that makes me a Russian assassin does it because Kalashnikov rifles were invented in Russia?

 

[Otis]

No you aren’t as I’ve asked 5 times what you would define as proof and you are incapable of articulating a response.

And I do keep answering you.

Something more than 'highly likely.'

Saying 'Highly likely' is not any kind of definitive proof.

I am not a scientist, nor am I a member of the secret services, rhe intelligence services, or the security services.

You want my expert opinion when I have absolutely no technical expertise in this field?

You also have zero technical expertise either.

Come on here, you are not dumb, so why play that card?

How can anyone who has no knowledge of this field state what constitutes proof? Impossible .

Read Wingy's post above. We cannot exactly pinpoint the source, yet our Boris was saying we HAD the unequivocal, undoubtable proof.

THEY know what constitutes proof. Us plebs on a football forum do not.

Read the statement that came out yesterday again. Read what Wingy just said.

When this first happened it was stated that they would be able to trace the agent to the very lab where it was manufactured. Porton Down laboratory have now said they could not verify the precise source of the nerve agent used.

'Could not verify the precise source' is NOT proof and it is no wonder the Russians are laughing at us.

Of you think not being able to verify the exact source is proof, you live in a very strange and weird world.

The government must know we needed more than being highly likely and were obviously expecting something more definitive and exact from the lab research.

They haven't got it. The statement yester day clearly doesn't help the case to suggest a burden of proof.

 

[Gazolba]

Yes, well that is a possible explanation as the scientist that I heard said they can pinpoint the origin of the potassium element, and now another scientist says they cannot prove that it came from Russia. It means we have to have something else conclusive. Difficult if we don’t want to give some sources away.

If you know that, don't you think the Russians know it too? And they would have made sure to use potassium from some other source. Do you think they are stupid?
They probably have an entire Government department devoted to developing and delivering untraceable poisons.

 

[martcov]

If you know that, don't you think the Russians know it too? And they would have made sure to use potassium from some other source. Do you think they are stupid?
They probably have an entire Government department devoted to developing and delivering untraceable poisons.

Highly probable, but how do you prove it? I don’t think they are stupid.

 

[Otis]

If you know that, don't you think the Russians know it too? And they would have made sure to use potassium from some other source. Do you think they are stupid?
They probably have an entire Government department devoted to developing and delivering untraceable poisons.

Exactly. Welcome to spy world.

If they are trying to send a message, which Is guess is exactly what they are trying to do, it's to say we can do anything we want and you can't stop us.
You can point the finger at us, but you will never prove it is us.

Like you say, they will have just done enough to hint at it, but make it almost impossible to prove.

Haven't there been 14 high profile ex pat Russians killed here now in the UK under suspicious circumstances?

Has anyone been convicted for any of them? In many of the cases they cannot even prove it was murder and the suggestion is suicide.

Think there was a group of 5 (some ex Russian business men) who were set to build some sort of Russian themed development here in the UK and now all of them are dead. Seemingly having fallen off buildings, fallen in front of trains, committed suicide etc.

 

[Grendel]

And I do keep answering you.

Something more than 'highly likely.'

Saying 'Highly likely' is not any kind of definitive proof.

I am not a scientist, nor am I a member of the secret services, rhe intelligence services, or the security services.

You want my expert opinion when I have absolutely no technical expertise in this field?

You also have zero technical expertise either.

Come on here, you are not dumb, so why play that card?

How can anyone who has no knowledge of this field state what constitutes proof? Impossible .

Read Wingy's post above. We cannot exactly pinpoint the source, yet our Boris was saying we HAD the unequivocal, undoubtable proof.

THEY know what constitutes proof. Us plebs on a football forum do not.

Read the statement that came out yesterday again. Read what Wingy just said.

When this first happened it was stated that they would be able to trace the agent to the very lab where it was manufactured. Porton Down laboratory have now said they could not verify the precise source of the nerve agent used.

'Could not verify the precise source' is NOT proof and it is no wonder the Russians are laughing at us.

Of you think not being able to verify the exact source is proof, you live in a very strange and weird world.

The government must know we needed more than being highly likely and were obviously expecting something more definitive and exact from the lab research.

They haven't got it. The statement yester day clearly doesn't help the case to suggest a burden of proof.

Consider this.

The statement says it’s a state sponsored act. The government says it has other evidence to go along with this.

This evidence has been shared with world leaders. This evidence has led to a unified conclusion that Russia are the antigonists.

My conclusion is that if the likes of the US military intelligence, the European leaders, the Australians have all formed the same conclusions of evidence that has been presented to them then they may be able to form a better conclusion than Otis from a football forum.

For most people it is enough and it’s case closed.

 

[martcov]

Consider this.

The statement says it’s a state sponsored act. The government says it has other evidence to go along with this.

This evidence has been shared with world leaders. This evidence has led to a unified conclusion that Russia are the antigonists.

My conclusion is that if the likes of the US military intelligence, the European leaders, the Australians have all formed the same conclusions of evidence that has been presented to them then they may be able to form a better conclusion than Otis from a football forum.

For most people it is enough and it’s case closed.

8 EU countries and our closest allies backed our actions. The rest of the world are keeping quiet. Corbyn is a privy councilor and has access to the same information and wants more proof. So for most of the world and the opposition leader it is not case closed.

 

[Otis]

8 EU countries and our closest allies backed our actions. The rest of the world are keeping quiet. Corbyn is a privy councilor and has access to the same information and wants more proof. So for most of the world and the opposition leader it is not case closed.

Yep.

I sincerely hope they do conclusively prove it to be true.

 

[Grendel]

8 EU countries and our closest allies backed our actions. The rest of the world are keeping quiet. Corbyn is a privy councilor and has access to the same information and wants more proof. So for most of the world and the opposition leader it is not case closed.

27 countries have taken action none of whom would do so lightly and all of whom would not seek to use the death on British soil of two people as a way of making political gain unlike the disgrace that masquerades as the opposition (we know Corbyn sides with every anti British country on earth) - what a strange little man you are.

Yes you anti British stooge it’s case closed.

 

[Grendel]

Yep.

I sincerely hope they do conclusively prove it to be true.

Are you an expert in this field?

 

[Otis]

Are you an expert in this field?

I am indeed.

 

[Grendel]

I am indeed.

Good so what proof will you require a d if it means revealing official secrets and a breach of the official secrets act and put lives at risk would you be comfortable with that?

 

[Otis]

Good so what proof will you require a d if it means revealing official secrets and a breach of the official secrets act and put lives at risk would you be comfortable with that?

Not going to keep arguing the toss. Luckily, I am not you.

If they know for certain then they should come out and say it WAS Russia and not just say it is highly likely it was Russia.

Big difference. The actual wording leaves room for doubt and the statement yesterday from Porton Down just perpetuates that doubt.

My last post on the subject.

I know you will reply, so go knock yourself out with it.

They should simply say that they have proof that it is Russia. Russia are laughing at the very phrase 'highly likely.'

 

[Grendel]

Not going to keep arguing the toss. Luckily, I am not you.

If they know for certain then they should come out and say it WAS Russia and not just say it is highly likely it was Russia.

Big difference. The actual wording leaves room for doubt and the statement yesterday from Porton Down just perpetuates that doubt.

My last post on the subject.

I know you will reply, so go knock yourself out with it.

They should simply say that they have proof that it is Russia. Russia are laughing at the very phrase 'highly likely.'

The government have said it was them

UK scientists unable to prove Salisbury nerve agent came from Russia