The World Cup Thread (9 Viewers)

[CJ_covblaze]

Ok, so we beat them in one game, we've also beaten Brasil, Argentina, Italy, Germany (5-1 away), France and Spain but that does not mean we are better teams that they are now.

That’s my point. You said Holland normally beat us. When I showed that they don’t you said you meant in competitive fixtures. This was incorrect again as we haven’t played them in that environment for 20 years.

Every team that was at that tournament deserved to be there. Every team that wasn’t, deserved not to be there. Italy and Holland included. There isn’t a single player I would take from their squads and put in any of the 4 teams from the semi finals along with several other teams that didn’t make it that far. Italy are currently a middle of the road team that could qualify for tournaments. Holland aren’t even that. They’re rubbish. As for Argentina they are nothing now compared to what they once were. I’m surprised they even made it out of the group stage. There’s a considerable amount of teams better than them. Just from their own continent, Brazil and Uraguay are streets ahead. When I say streets, I’m talking Route 66 length. In Europe there are probably a dozen teams that are better too.

 

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[Otis]

2006 starting XI against Portugal:

Robinson
G Neville
Terry
Ferdinand
A Cole
Hargreaves
Beckham
Gerrard
Lampard
J Cole
Rooney

2018 starting XI against Croatia:

Pickford
Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier
Young
Alli
Henderson
Lingard
Sterling
Kane

Sorry CJ it isn't even close.

It isn't. That former lot don't hold a candle to our current bunch.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

There were plenty of players cheating, but Neymar and Griezmann are excessively over the top with it and so far so that it has become ridiculous.

I remember Griezmann against Arsenal and if he wasn't diving he was feigning injury. No place for it in football and I am just as critical if England or City players do it, but Neymar and Griezmann are in a league of their own.

Hate it. All that's wrong with football.

As Otis says it should be a 6 game ban. If they do it again within a set amount of games after their ban is up they should ban the captain too. That’d soon stop it. No excuse for it.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

2006 starting XI against Portugal:

Robinson
G Neville
Terry
Ferdinand
A Cole
Hargreaves
Beckham
Gerrard
Lampard
J Cole
Rooney

2018 starting XI against Croatia:

Pickford
Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier
Young
Alli
Henderson
Lingard
Sterling
Kane

Sorry CJ it isn't even close.

I trust the opinion of one of the players on that list over yours or mine.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

It isn't. That former lot don't hold a candle to our current bunch.

Is that a joke?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I trust the opinion of one of the players on that list over yours or mine.

Which one?

 

[Otis]

Is that a joke?

Nope. Course not.

 

[Gazolba]

2006 starting XI against Portugal:

Robinson
G Neville
Terry
Ferdinand
A Cole
Hargreaves
Beckham
Gerrard
Lampard
J Cole
Rooney

2018 starting XI against Croatia:

Pickford
Walker
Stones
Maguire
Trippier
Young
Alli
Henderson
Lingard
Sterling
Kane

Sorry CJ it isn't even close.

That illustrates how far the stature of the individual players has declined.
It's even more obvious if you go back further to the 1990's when we had players like Keegan, Lineker, Platt, Gascoigne, Shearer, Beardsley, Barnes.
There are so many fewer players to choose from now that the majority of the Premier League is foreign players and with so few English players playing abroad.
They are either warming the bench or playing in the Championship.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Which one?

I'm not going to disclose that on a pubic forum. Should also be noted that the journalists who have been inside the camp that I've spoken to at length in the last few weeks have said the togetherness is better now than it's ever been. Some of the individuals from 2006 were certainly better players but as a team there's no doubt that we're now better.

Too much emphasis for years was put on trying to get Gerrard and Lampard to play in the same team. It shouldn't have even been a conversation. Depending on who we were playing it should've been start one, bench the other. There was another midfielder that was miles better than both of them that was played out of position so we could squeeze both in. Then along came another player who was probably one of the best holding midfielders of his generation but he was hardly used due to that same problem. Both of these players that were vastly underused won countless trophies and awards. These two decisions cost us at so many major tournaments.

The above wouldn't happen now. That's one example of why we are a better team.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Nope. Course not.

With the exception of goalkeeper I don't get how you can arrive at that conclusion.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I'm not going to disclose that on a pubic forum. Should also be noted that the journalists who have been inside the camp that I've spoken to at length in the last few weeks have said the togetherness is better now than it's ever been. Some of the individuals from 2006 were certainly better players but as a team there's no doubt that we're now better.

Too much emphasis for years was put on trying to get Gerrard and Lampard to play in the same team. It shouldn't have even been a conversation. Depending on who we were playing it should've been start one, bench the other. There was another midfielder that was miles better than both of them that was played out of position so we could squeeze both in. Then along came another player who was probably one of the best holding midfielders of his generation but he was hardly used due to that same problem. Both of these players that were vastly underused won countless trophies and awards. These two decisions cost us at so many major tournaments.

The above wouldn't happen now. That's why we are a better team.

I am talking man for man not about the holistic performance. Except for goalkeeper each man from 2006 is better than the corresponding one from 2018. I have also praised the fact that 2018's side gave a fuck many times. What concerns me is the unquestionable decline in quality and technical ability and while you quote someone from 2006 there is footage of 3 of these players admitting that club success mattered more and interfered with squad harmony.

For all of these horrendous decisions we got to 3 consecutive 1/4 finals, going out to a freak goal against Brazil and on penalties twice.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

With the exception of goalkeeper I don't get how you can arrive at that conclusion.

If it was all about individuals Germany would've played France in the final.

 

[Otis]

With the exception of goalkeeper I don't get how you can arrive at that conclusion.

Nah, joking.

Better players then, but I do think this is probably a better team. Those bunch of superstars always flattered to decieve.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

I am talking man for man not about the holistic performance. Except for goalkeeper each man from 2006 is better than the corresponding one from 2018. I have also praised the fact that 2018's side gave a fuck many times. What concerns me is the unquestionable decline in quality and technical ability and while you quote someone from 2006 there is footage of 3 of these players admitting that club success mattered more and interfered with squad harmony.

For all of these horrendous decisions we got to 3 consecutive 1/4 finals, going out to a freak goal against Brazil and on penalties twice.

And despite the reduction in individual quality this time we got further than we did back then. The standard of opposition wasn't much different too. In 2002 we played Brazil and lost. In 06 we played against Portugal and lost. The Croatian team we just lost to are better than that Portuguese team.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If it was all about individuals Germany would've played France in the final.

Disagree, Low stuck with a squad past its sell by date and still lacks quality up front. I know it's not all about individuals-never claimed that. But 11 better technical players managed to the same level will perform better than an inferior group. France had quality from back to front and were managed effectively, so they ended up winning the tournament. Belgium likewise.

We are producing individual players of lower quality than we were 10 years ago, and the decline has been slow but steady. It isn't a crime to point that out or to be concerned by it or to want better quality players playing for the national side. Because it's that lack of quality which has seen us go out at the semis and not go all the way.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Nah, joking.

Better players then, but I do think this is probably a better team. Those bunch of superstars always flattered to decieve.

No disagreement with that.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

That illustrates how far the stature of the individual players has declined.
It's even more obvious if you go back further to the 1990's when we had players like Keegan, Lineker, Platt, Gascoigne, Shearer, Beardsley, Barnes.
There are so many fewer players to choose from now that the majority of the Premier League is foreign players and with so few English players playing abroad.
They are either warming the bench or playing in the Championship.

I agree the amount of foreign talent is hardly helpful to the national set up. Brexit will help sort that out. The employment laws currently mean there can not be a restriction. I wouldn't put it all down to the Premier League though. What was the excuse for the 26 years before it was founded?

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Disagree, Low stuck with a squad past its sell by date and still lacks quality up front. I know it's not all about individuals-never claimed that. But 11 better technical players managed to the same level will perform better than an inferior group. France had quality from back to front and were managed effectively, so they ended up winning the tournament. Belgium likewise.

We are producing individual players of lower quality than we were 10 years ago, and the decline has been slow but steady. It isn't a crime to point that out or to be concerned by it or to want better quality players playing for the national side. Because it's that lack of quality which has seen us go out at the semis and not go all the way.

Belgium man for man are better than us. In some areas by some distance. They didn't win it either. I agree on Low. In my opinion it's similar to Wenger. He's done brilliantly well but his time is up. Playing Neuer was a huge mistake and one of the main reasons why they went out so early.

 

[Nick]

We scraped through and were lucky. If we had come up against France in the first knockout game we would have been out instantly. We were lucky in that the first few games defenders liked to play Rugby in the box, without any of the antics in the penalty areas we would have struggled to score.

The front 4 were anonymous for most games, we needed Penalties, Set Pieces and Corners to try and get us through. It wasn't enough.

Kane may as well not have bothered, was only on the pitch to try and win us a corner. Alli and Lingard did pretty much nothing and Sterling ran about a lot.

All of the love-in is like people talking about a kid who came 4th in a race but they don't want to hurt his feelings.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Belgium man for man are better than us. In some areas by some distance. They didn't win it either. I agree on Low. In my opinion it's similar to Wenger. He's done brilliantly well but his time is up. Playing Neuer was a huge mistake and one of the main reasons why they went out so early.

Because they came up against a France side with even more quality-only 1 team can win it. Martinez has them well drilled and has shown impressive tactical nous throughout the tournament. Southgate has done his best with an average group but against another good manager with better players at his disposal we have lost twice. Quality does matter, however much we want to pretend it doesn't.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

Because they came up against a France side with even more quality-only 1 team can win it. Martinez has them well drilled and has shown impressive tactical nous throughout the tournament. Southgate has done his best with an average group but against another good manager with better players at his disposal we have lost twice. Quality does matter, however much we want to pretend it doesn't.

Until this World Cup Martinez has not been a good manager. If anything he’s probably the luckiest man alive to get that Belgian job. Wigan were a mid table PL team. He turned up and they fought relegation for years. Then he went to Everton where it was a complete disaster. In terms of starting 11s Belgium and France are well matched.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

We scraped through and were lucky. If we had come up against France in the first knockout game we would have been out instantly. We were lucky in that the first few games defenders liked to play Rugby in the box, without any of the antics in the penalty areas we would have struggled to score.

The front 4 were anonymous for most games, we needed Penalties, Set Pieces and Corners to try and get us through. It wasn't enough.

Kane may as well not have bothered, was only on the pitch to try and win us a corner. Alli and Lingard did pretty much nothing and Sterling ran about a lot.

All of the love-in is like people talking about a kid who came 4th in a race but they don't want to hurt his feelings.

Lingard and Sterling did so much on and off the ball work. When one of them got the ball we normally ended up 30 yards further forward in the space of a few seconds. As I said previously you don't aways get the full picture on a screen. Should be noted that one the best teams out there needed extra time to beat us. It would've gone to penalties too if one our players had thought about it and not passed it forwards after kick off.

 

[tisza]

I agree the amount of foreign talent is hardly helpful to the national set up. Brexit will help sort that out. The employment laws currently mean there can not be a restriction. I wouldn't put it all down to the Premier League though. What was the excuse for the 26 years before it was founded?

It's the next few years that are key.
PL youth system now literally producing world beaters at age group levels. Again it doesn't help that the big 4 or 5 clubs have hoovered up this talent and so they are at clubs where they aren't likely to get an early chance.
Nature of PL is instant fixes - average manager lasts about 14 months (probably a lot less now Wenger isn't distorting the stats!!). PL has no interest in encouraging clubs to develop English players - other sports do offer financial incentives to encourage young English player development. PL/FA don't have the financial influence to make it worthwhile for clubs.
We're going to see PL clubs fill up with a lot of "average" 15-20m overseas players again this summer rather than looking within the domestic set-up. Average age of PL sides nearly pushing 28 according to a recent national newspaper columnist.

 

[Nick]

Lingard and Sterling did so much on and off the ball work. When one of them got the ball we normally ended up 30 yards further forward in the space of a few seconds. As I said previously you don't aways get the full picture on a screen. Should be noted that one the best teams out there needed extra time to beat us. It would've gone to penalties too if one our players had thought about it and not passed it forwards after kick off.

It's all well and good getting down the pitch in a few seconds but pointless if nothing is done with it when they get there. We didn't really look dangerous other than set pieces.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

It's the next few years that are key.
PL youth system now literally producing world beaters at age group levels. Again it doesn't help that the big 4 or 5 clubs have hoovered up this talent and so they are at clubs where they aren't likely to get an early chance.
Nature of PL is instant fixes - average manager lasts about 14 months (probably a lot less now Wenger isn't distorting the stats!!). PL has no interest in encouraging clubs to develop English players - other sports do offer financial incentives to encourage young English player development. PL/FA don't have the financial influence to make it worthwhile for clubs.
We're going to see PL clubs fill up with a lot of "average" 15-20m overseas players again this summer rather than looking within the domestic set-up. Average age of PL sides nearly pushing 28 according to a recent national newspaper columnist.

Not good is it. Fingers crossed things change soon.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

It's all well and good getting down the pitch in a few seconds but pointless if nothing is done with it when they get there. We didn't really look dangerous other than set pieces.

The problem was, Kane was clearly not 100% fit for the knockout games. He was carrying something. Against Croatia he took a further knock to the back around 10 minutes in and that pretty much rendered him ineffective up front. He was kept on for set pieces and dropped back where he actually looked reasonable playing in midfield. the issue was we don't have another Harry Kane up top for him to pass to. The only options were either playing Loftus-Cheek or Welbeck in an advanced role through the middle. Why that option wasn't taken I'm not sure.

 

[Otis]

Southgate the English hero



Southgate station has now been named after him.

 

[Nick]

The problem was, Kane was clearly not 100% fit for the knockout games. He was carrying something. Against Croatia he took a further knock to the back around 10 minutes in and that pretty much rendered him ineffective up front. He was kept on for set pieces and dropped back where he actually looked reasonable playing in midfield. the issue was we don't have another Harry Kane up top for him to pass to. The only options were either playing Loftus-Cheek or Welbeck in an advanced role through the middle. Why that option wasn't taken I'm not sure.

If he wasn't fit he shouldn't have been playing. You can't keep a player on just in case we get a penalty.

If he was injured he should have been rested for the 3rd Place Play off as well as it was pretty meaningless.

We just didn't look dangerous enough or an actual real threat going forward.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

If he wasn't fit he shouldn't have been playing. You can't keep a player on just in case we get a penalty.

If he was injured he should have been rested for the 3rd Place Play off as well as it was pretty meaningless.

We just didn't look dangerous enough or an actual real threat going forward.

Agree. I don’t know why he was played in that. It wasn’t meaningless to me. Enjoyed it as much as any of the other games.

 

[Nick]

Agree. I don’t know why he was played in that. It wasn’t meaningless to me. Enjoyed it as much as any of the other games.

I mean in terms of result it didn't really mean that much compared to a semi final so if he was injured let him have a break rather than risk injury.

Just reminds me of a David Haye type excuse. If he's injured, go with Plan B and don't play him.

 

[CJ_covblaze]

I mean in terms of result it didn't really mean that much compared to a semi final so if he was injured let him have a break rather than risk injury.

Just reminds me of a David Haye type excuse. If he's injured, go with Plan B and don't play him.

The last bit is the problem.

 

[Nick]

The last bit is the problem.

No plan B?

You can't just play for free kicks, corners and penalties.

While the love in goes on, we were pretty lucky to scrape through some of the games.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yeah, I'd say it was a good world cup (you'd be a fool to say otherwise) but not entirely convinced we've progressed from sides of old, really, up front.

The encouraging thing was to play it out of defence, but we went all slow on the build-up which was slightly odd, as technical ability of the players or not, getting the midfield to go forward at pace on the break shouldn't have been beyond us.

We'll see in the next tournament if this was a fluke or not...

 

[tisza]

Not good is it. Fingers crossed things change soon.

and once again PL clubs refusing to release players for the U19 tournament (most of whom will get nowhere near 1st team squad this season)

 

[no_loyalty]

No plan B?

You can't just play for free kicks, corners and penalties.

While the love in goes on, we were pretty lucky to scrape through some of the games.

Agree, we didn't beat any decent teams